rfg@NCD.COM (Ron Guilmette) (08/04/90)
In article <56268@microsoft.UUCP> jimad@microsoft.UUCP (Jim ADCOCK) writes: >In article <56165@microsoft.UUCP> jimad@microsoft.UUCP (Jim ADCOCK) writes: >>Proposed: >> >>We need a way to "pack" objects over inheritence boundaries, and possibly >>between labeled fields of a declaration. I do not propose here exactly >>what the "right" way to do this is. > >I should clarify that I was not proposing that every compiler actually has >to do the packing, nor that there need to be a standard way to do that >packing. What I was proposing is that we need a way to turn off the standard >C++ field ordering restrictions, such that a compiler can choose to lay out >those fields in any order it feels is appropriate. Perhaps the easiest way >to accomplish this is just throw away the traditional restrictions on field >ordering. There already exists a defined way within the language to "turn off the standard C++ field ordering restrictions". Section 9.2 (page 173, middle of the page) in E&S says: "The order of allocation of nonstatic data members {which are} separated by an access specifier is implementation dependent (11.1)". Therefore, the members of the following type, may legally be laid out in *any* arbitrary ordering by a "standard conforming" compiler. struct S { int f1:22; public: int f2:10; public: int f3:3; public: int f4:5; public: char f5; public: short f6; }; I personally find the rule cited above intensely offensive because it gives the compiler licence to thwart the will of the programmer (who is supposed to be in control after all). I don't like that one little bit! (I tried to point out this problem here once before, but either nobody was listening or else nobody was cared). I am *not* in the camp that believes that the compiler should be given even more leway to mess around with my intentions, and to change my intended meaning. Quite the opposite. I'm a big boy now. I can establish a good and proper ordering for the data members within my structs and classes all by myself, and without any help from the compiler, thank you. In fact I would *prefer* to do it myself, because I believe that it is far more likely that I will understand where things out to go (or must go) than the compiler will. Consider the following: class C { unsigned private_member_1:22; public: unsigned public_member_2:10; private: unsigned private_member_3:7; public: unsigned public_member_4:25; C (); // ... other member functions }; Now I wrote the fields in the order shown so that they would fit perfectly into two words *only* as long as they are actually allocated in the order shown. Unfortunately, the rule cited above allows "standard conforming" compilers to thwart my intentions and to reorder the fields in any damn order they please. The implication is that I simply cannot make use of access specifiers (and the benefits they can provide) for any class or struct where field ordering is critical (either for reasons of space economy or because I am dealing with some hardware-defined layout, such as commonly arises in cases of memory-mapped I/O devices with multiple control/data registers). So what I'm trying to say is that we DO NEED to have some way of telling compilers "pack the last field of the parent class into the same word (if possible) as the first field of the derived class" but what we DON'T NEED is the current rule that allows the compiler to rearrange fields any way it pleases. These issue are mostly separate, until you see that the achievment of "good" packing between a base class and a derived class may depend upon the ability of the programmer to force a particular (packable) field to be allocated *last* within a struct or class. Right now, if you want to (or need to) use access-specifiers within the base class, it is IMPOSSIBLE select (or to force) the proper allocation. -- // Ron Guilmette // C++ Entomologist // Internet: rfg@ncd.com uucp: ...uunet!lupine!rfg // Motto: If it sticks, force it. If it breaks, it needed replacing anyway.
jimad@microsoft.UUCP (Jim ADCOCK) (08/17/90)
In article <1070@lupine.NCD.COM> rfg@ncd.com writes: >There already exists a defined way within the language to "turn off the >standard C++ field ordering restrictions". > >Section 9.2 (page 173, middle of the page) in E&S says: > > "The order of allocation of nonstatic data members {which are} > separated by an access specifier is implementation dependent (11.1)". Yes. So given that access specifiers and/or inheritence can bust people's expectations on packing order, why maintain restrictions on packing order at all? Or why not require special actions, such as adding a "extern "C"' caveat, be used by people who have the unusual need of matching machine registers? What percentage of C++ programmers need to diddle machine registers, and how often? >I personally find the rule cited above intensely offensive because it gives >the compiler licence to thwart the will of the programmer (who is supposed >to be in control after all). I don't like that one little bit! Actually, the will of this programmer is that C++ compilers generate the fastest and most compact code possible from my class declarations. It is not C++ compilers that are tharting this will, but rather people who want to continue using C++ as a C assembly language. I want to be able to use C++ as a fast, efficient object oriented language. This requires compilers that have great optimization, and great freedom to optimize. There continues this division between C/C++ people who want a compiler to "do what I say" verses "do you best optimizations." I think this issue should be addressed in the marketplace -- not in the language. If you want a C++ compiler that acts just like C that acts just like assembler, then surely the marketplace will offer such a compiler from some vendor. If you want to use C++ to play with machine registers, then portability is not an issue to you anyway. -- Or alternatively, probably just about any vendors compiler with all optimizations turned off will fullfill your requirements. Again, why should everyone's C++ compiler have to generate slower, more memory intensive code in order to meet the needs of people who feel they want to maintain intimate control over their compiler? Why can't they just buy a compiler that gives them that control? >So what I'm trying to say is that we DO NEED to have some way of telling >compilers "pack the last field of the parent class into the same word >(if possible) as the first field of the derived class" but what we DON'T >NEED is the current rule that allows the compiler to rearrange fields >any way it pleases. I disagree. A common C++ hack I've seen in a number of libraries is an attempt to inherit partial bit fields, so that a base class can use a couple bits for flags, and subsequent derived classes can steal a couple bits for their usages. You can't do this with bit-fields right now, and have to use macro/enum hacks instead.
rfg@NCD.COM (Ron Guilmette) (08/18/90)
In article <56638@microsoft.UUCP> jimad@microsoft.UUCP (Jim ADCOCK) writes: >In article <1070@lupine.NCD.COM> rfg@ncd.com writes: >>There already exists a defined way within the language to "turn off the >>standard C++ field ordering restrictions". >> >>Section 9.2 (page 173, middle of the page) in E&S says: >> >> "The order of allocation of nonstatic data members {which are} >> separated by an access specifier is implementation dependent (11.1)". > >Yes. So given that access specifiers and/or inheritence can bust people's >expectations on packing order, why maintain restrictions on packing order >at all? Perhaps you missed my point. I was suggesting that the rule quoted above be REVOKED and DELETED from the final ANSI standard. >... What percentage of C++ programmers need to diddle machine >registers, and how often? What percentage of C++ programmers *need* to use default parameters? What percentage of C++ programmers *need* to use multiple inheritance? In the case of each of these language features a good case can be made that 0% of C++ programmers *need* these features. Should we therefore chuck them out of the language? I think not. The question really should be "How much harder would doing some reasonably common programming task, X, be if feature (or constraint) F were ommited from the language?" and also "How difficult is it for a typical implementor to implement feature (or constraint) F?" In the case of a constraint which would require compilers to maintain the programmer-specified ordering of data fields, the implementation is trivially easy. (In fact, it is actually *harder* to do anything else!) Also, the usefulness of allowing the programmer to precisely specify his desired field ordering is (in my opinion) quite large. As I noted in a prior posting, programmers may often need to do this when dealing with data formats dictated by outside constraints (e.g. existing disk formats, existing datacomm protocols, memory mapped I/O devices, and (last but not least) layouts mandated by external routines (e.g. from libc.a) written in other languages such as C). >>I personally find the rule cited above intensely offensive because it gives >>the compiler licence to thwart the will of the programmer (who is supposed >>to be in control after all). I don't like that one little bit! > >Actually, the will of this programmer is that C++ compilers generate the >fastest and most compact code possible from my class declarations. Are you suggesting that it may be possible to generate more efficient executable code if arbitrary field re-ordering (by the compiler) is allowed? If so, are you prepared to give realistic (not contrived) examples of such improvements? If (on the other hand) you are only suggesting that a compiler could possibly pack fields in some better order than I can, let me assure you that you are wrong. If you would care to organize a test, I'll be glad to pit my brain against your compiler in a "structure packing" test any day of the week. As a matter of fact, I surmize that the intelligence necessary to do good structure packing is not even beyond the reach of your common garden slug. This fact makes me all the more confused about your insistance that you want compilers to do this for you. Are you low-rating yourself? :-) >... There continues to be a division between those who want a compiler >to "do what I say" verses "do you best optimizations." I think this >issue should be addressed in the marketplace -- not in the language. >If you want a C++ compiler that acts just like C that acts just like >assembler, then surely the marketplace will offer such a compiler from >some vendor. If you want to use C++ to play with machine registers, >then portability is not an issue to you anyway. You have made a rash generalization which is untrue. I may be concerned with data formats (on disk or in a communications channel) and I may also be concerned with portability. Furthermore, I may even be diddling machine registers and I may *still* be concerned with portability!!! Obviously, you have never seen any C code which drives some specialized peripherial chip (e.g. an ethernet controller) which gets ported from one CPU to another as that peripheral chips gets used in different kinds of systems. I have seen this though. Also, independent of the portability issue, there is also the issue of "vendor independence". Even if my code stays forever on this one system, if I find a new compiler that I think generates better code, and I buy it and install it and recompile my old code with it, I'd kinda like that old code to continue working. I don't want to see it start to core dump just because compiler writers were given the freedom to rearrange my field orderings willy-nilly and because they all choose to do it differently. Right now, if I have the following C code: struct s { unsigned field1:24; unsigned field2:8; }; and this is in a program running on a 68000, I can get C compilers from at least a dozen vendors that will lay this out *exactly* the same way. Thus, I have vendor independence. That (and portability) are worth money to me. Now I find out that I've lost this with C++, and I've gotten virtually nothing in return. :-( >... Or alternatively, >probably just about any vendors compiler with all optimizations turned >off will fullfill your requirements. Not if it is not *required* by the standard!!! >Again, why should everyone's C++ compiler have to generate slower, >more memory intensive code in order to meet the needs of people who >feel they want to maintain intimate control over their compiler? >Why can't they just buy a compiler that gives them that control? Again, you have presented no evidence whatsoever that obeying the programmer's wishes with regard to field ordering will result in slower (or "more memory intensive") code in any real programs. Until you do, this argument should be viewed as simply a red herring. I believe that this argument is bogus, and that it has no basis in fact. Programmers need not suffer any performance penalty whatsoever in order to have the compiler obey their wishes. -- // Ron Guilmette - C++ Entomologist // Internet: rfg@ncd.com uucp: ...uunet!lupine!rfg // Motto: If it sticks, force it. If it breaks, it needed replacing anyway.
marc@dumbcat.sf.ca.us (Marco S Hyman) (08/19/90)
jimad> = jimad@microsoft.UUCP (Jim ADCOCK) article <56638@microsoft.UUCP> jimad> If you want to use C++ to play with machine registers, then jimad> portability is not an issue to you anyway. -- Or alternatively, jimad> probably just about any vendors compiler with all optimizations jimad> turned off will fullfill your requirements. Let's make a distinction between code that is portable to different machines and code that is portable between different compilers on the same machine. Needing to play with machine registers will certainly limit machine portability. But I certainly want to compile my machine dependent code with *any* C++ compiler and have the code work. This means that any special optimizations to make the code faster or tighter must not be the compiler's default. Once I've got things working then I'll profile the code, check out better algorithms, and look at the optimizations available with the compiler. // marc -- // marc@dumbcat.sf.ca.us // {ames,decwrl,sun}!pacbell!dumbcat!marc
amanda@iesd.auc.dk (Per Abrahamsen) (08/19/90)
>>>>> On 18 Aug 90 07:46:50 GMT, rfg@NCD.COM (Ron Guilmette) said:
rfg> As a matter of fact, I surmize that the intelligence necessary to
rfg> do good structure packing is not even beyond the reach of your
rfg> common garden slug. This fact makes me all the more confused
rfg> about your insistance that you want compilers to do this for you.
rfg> Are you low-rating yourself? :-)
If it is that easy, then even a computer should be able to do it. Why
should the programmer waste his time doing work, which the compiler
could do just as easily? Maybe he prefers to spend his time arranging
the fields in an order, which makes it easy for humans to understand?
jimad@microsoft.UUCP (Jim ADCOCK) (08/21/90)
In article <195@dumbcat.sf.ca.us> marc@dumbcat.sf.ca.us (Marco S Hyman) writes: >jimad> = jimad@microsoft.UUCP (Jim ADCOCK) > article <56638@microsoft.UUCP> > >jimad> If you want to use C++ to play with machine registers, then >jimad> portability is not an issue to you anyway. -- Or alternatively, >jimad> probably just about any vendors compiler with all optimizations >jimad> turned off will fullfill your requirements. > >Let's make a distinction between code that is portable to different machines >and code that is portable between different compilers on the same machine. >Needing to play with machine registers will certainly limit machine >portability. But I certainly want to compile my machine dependent code with >*any* C++ compiler and have the code work. You've never had anything close to capability in the past, so the changes I am suggesting aren't taking anything away from you. Nor is there anything in the standardization effort I can think of that could even possibly give you these capabilities. What might emerge -- eventually -- is defacto standards where vendors of compilers on a particular machine agree on how things should be done on that machine. But I claim the marketplace is the right place to make such decisions. Let's not ham-string compilers from the start. >This means that any special optimizations to make the code faster or tighter >must not be the compiler's default. Once I've got things working then I'll >profile the code, check out better algorithms, and look at the optimizations >available with the compiler. Some special optimizations to make code faster or tighter are the default even in today's C compilers. Even if you turn off all optimizations, typical compilers still perform some particularly 'safe' optimizations. Historically, optimizations have primarily been applied to callee code -- the body of functions. In OOP the problem shifts towards caller optimizations -- the way a function gets called. So C optimization problems don't carry over very well to C++ optimization problems. Also, inline functions and templates generate pretty 'bad' code -- overly general code, that needs to be customized by an optimizer to meet the particular needs of the calling environment.
jimad@microsoft.UUCP (Jim ADCOCK) (08/21/90)
In article <1229@lupine.NCD.COM> rfg@NCD.COM (Ron Guilmette) writes: >In article <56638@microsoft.UUCP> jimad@microsoft.UUCP (Jim ADCOCK) writes: >>In article <1070@lupine.NCD.COM> rfg@ncd.com writes: >>>There already exists a defined way within the language to "turn off the >>>standard C++ field ordering restrictions". >>> >>>Section 9.2 (page 173, middle of the page) in E&S says: >>> >>> "The order of allocation of nonstatic data members {which are} >>> separated by an access specifier is implementation dependent (11.1)". >> >>Yes. So given that access specifiers and/or inheritence can bust people's >>expectations on packing order, why maintain restrictions on packing order >>at all? > >Perhaps you missed my point. I was suggesting that the rule quoted above >be REVOKED and DELETED from the final ANSI standard. Gee, you mean we agree? >Are you suggesting that it may be possible to generate more efficient >executable code if arbitrary field re-ordering (by the compiler) is allowed? Yes. >If so, are you prepared to give realistic (not contrived) examples of such >improvements? Yes and no. Clearly, I am not free to talk about MS future plans. Hopefully, even a few obvious examples should demonstrate the plausability of changes in packing order leading to faster code. 1) Fields used frequently together could be moved together, speeding code on machines with bus prefetch. "Fields frequently used together" could be automatically determined via compiler profiling, and might actually be different for different usages of the same class in different programs. 2) Vtable pointers could be moved close to the "this" address, allowing machine codes with short offsets be generate in these important cases. Again, one class used differently in different programs might lead to different lay-out choices. 3) char "booleans" or shorts could be packed-into a base class, leading to smaller total memory usage, less page turns, and thus faster execution in practice. >If (on the other hand) you are only suggesting that a compiler could possibly >pack fields in some better order than I can, let me assure you that you are >wrong. If you would care to organize a test, I'll be glad to pit my brain >against your compiler in a "structure packing" test any day of the week. >As a matter of fact, I surmize that the intelligence necessary to do good >structure packing is not even beyond the reach of your common garden slug. >This fact makes me all the more confused about your insistance that you >want compilers to do this for you. Are you low-rating yourself? :-) Not at all. I don't want to have to act like an assembler for the compiler. Let the compiler do the low stuff, and I'll do the high stuff. In the face of inheritence, only compilers can do packing-in optimizations without violating encapsulation. Joe ought to be able to write an efficient base class, and Sue ought to be able to derive from that base class, and the derivation should make good use of the available space in the base class. Even if you could explicitly state how you want compilers to pack-in fields, then the resultingg code would not be portable, because differing machines are going to have differing alignment constraints, leading to differing "holes" in the original base class. > >Right now, if I have the following C code: > > struct s { > unsigned field1:24; > unsigned field2:8; > }; > >and this is in a program running on a 68000, I can get C compilers from at >least a dozen vendors that will lay this out *exactly* the same way. Thus, >I have vendor independence. That (and portability) are worth money to me. > Agreed. That's why I suggested that one approach might be that "struct" means the same layout as C, as long as you don't derive. Then all your C code continues to work. One can think up reasons why one might want to use inheritence in matching machine registers, but that seems pushing it, to my mind. > >Not if it is not *required* by the standard!!! I wasn't proposing any new requirements on compilers. I was proposing relaxing requirements on compilers that were intended as a weak restriction towards making C++ classes work like C structs. --- Ron continues on, arguing strongly for the advantages on manually clustering over automatic clustering. I disagree. I think performance in other OOPLs and OODBs show that manual clustering doesn't work, because patterns of usage do not remain constant. Thus clustering needs to be done automatically, adapting to changing patterns of usage.
roland@ai.mit.edu (Roland McGrath) (08/21/90)
In article <1229@lupine.NCD.COM> rfg@NCD.COM (Ron Guilmette) writes: The question really should be "How much harder would doing some reasonably common programming task, X, be if feature (or constraint) F were ommited from the language?" and also "How difficult is it for a typical implementor to implement feature (or constraint) F?" I disagree. I don't see why difficulty of implementation should be an issue in the language standard. It's not a list of implementation guidelines; it's a standard for how the language behaves. You seem to presume that the people contributing to the standard will be at least as clever as any implementor of the language. I find this a completely ridiculous presumption. Just because you can't think of a way to do something, you want to disallow others from attempting it. I can't think of a way to do it either, but I would fight the the right of others to make the attempt. In the case of a constraint which would require compilers to maintain the programmer-specified ordering of data fields, the implementation is trivially easy. (In fact, it is actually *harder* to do anything else!) So obviously lazy implementors will do what you want, and clever/hardworking implementors will do something more. Also, the usefulness of allowing the programmer to precisely specify his desired field ordering is (in my opinion) quite large. Although I think I consider this less useful than you do, I am in favor of retaining a way to force a given field order. Using: extern "C" { struct foo { char elt0; int elt1; }; } does this quite well. As I noted in a prior posting, programmers may often need to do this when dealing with data formats dictated by outside constraints (e.g. existing disk formats, existing datacomm protocols, memory mapped I/O devices, and (last but not least) layouts mandated by external routines (e.g. from libc.a) written in other languages such as C). Indeed true. This is why I advocate giving them a way to do so, shown above. >>I personally find the rule cited above intensely offensive because it gives >>the compiler licence to thwart the will of the programmer (who is supposed >>to be in control after all). I don't like that one little bit! > >Actually, the will of this programmer is that C++ compilers generate the >fastest and most compact code possible from my class declarations. Are you suggesting that it may be possible to generate more efficient executable code if arbitrary field re-ordering (by the compiler) is allowed? If so, are you prepared to give realistic (not contrived) examples of such improvements? I'm not so prepared. Are you prepared to prove it impossible? If (on the other hand) you are only suggesting that a compiler could possibly pack fields in some better order than I can, let me assure you that you are wrong. If you would care to organize a test, I'll be glad to pit my brain against your compiler in a "structure packing" test any day of the week. Given that all present compilers are bound by the present rules, this idea is somewhat ridiculous. I expect the standard to outlive present or near-future implementations, however. Otherwise, what's the point of having a standard? As a matter of fact, I surmize that the intelligence necessary to do good structure packing is not even beyond the reach of your common garden slug. This fact makes me all the more confused about your insistance that you want compilers to do this for you. Are you low-rating yourself? :-) Where do you find these garden slugs with absolute prescience of all possible future computer architectures and C++ implementations? Right now, if I have the following C code: struct s { unsigned field1:24; unsigned field2:8; }; and this is in a program running on a 68000, I can get C compilers from at least a dozen vendors that will lay this out *exactly* the same way. Thus, I have vendor independence. That (and portability) are worth money to me. This is an excellent example. Since we are speaking of C++, and the example is C code, you can simply put it within `extern "C"' and have all the guarantees you now have with the C code. Now I find out that I've lost this with C++, and I've gotten virtually nothing in return. :-( You have not lost this functionality. You simply must use a slightly different construct. Since you are using a significantly different language, you should consider yourself lucky that the necessary change is so minor. By my standards, the possibility of many new optimizations as yet unconceived of is not "virtually nothing". >... Or alternatively, >probably just about any vendors compiler with all optimizations turned >off will fullfill your requirements. Not if it is not *required* by the standard!!! Quite true. An excellent argument for why field reordering should not be allowed within `extern "C"'. >Again, why should everyone's C++ compiler have to generate slower, >more memory intensive code in order to meet the needs of people who >feel they want to maintain intimate control over their compiler? >Why can't they just buy a compiler that gives them that control? Again, you have presented no evidence whatsoever that obeying the programmer's wishes with regard to field ordering will result in slower (or "more memory intensive") code in any real programs. Until you do, this argument should be viewed as simply a red herring. You again presume foreknowledge of all possible future implementations. I find such arrogance surprising from an otherwise reasonable person. I believe that this argument is bogus, and that it has no basis in fact. I consider it a fact that some C++ compiler implementor may in the future come up with a way to improve efficiency through field reordering. Until such a way is proven impossible, this remains a fact. Programmers need not suffer any performance penalty whatsoever in order to have the compiler obey their wishes. This is true if and only if your definition of "performance" includes only run-time program speed. While this type of performance is of great concern to me, of equal concern is programmer performance. Programmer performance degrades greatly when the programmer is forced by constraints of the language to do work that the compiler could be doing. -- Roland McGrath Free Software Foundation, Inc. roland@ai.mit.edu, uunet!ai.mit.edu!roland
stt@inmet.inmet.com (08/22/90)
Re: Allowing compilers to reorder fields "at will". Having used a language without strict field ordering rules, I can testify that it is a nightmare. If you want the compiler to reorder your fields, then you should have to indicate it explicitly, perhaps via a "pragma" or equivalent. Otherwise, you lose interoperability between successive versions of the same compiler, let alone interoperability between different compilers. S. Tucker Taft Intermetrics, Inc. Cambridge, MA 02138
rfg@NCD.COM (Ron Guilmette) (08/24/90)
In article <56744@microsoft.UUCP> jimad@microsoft.UUCP (Jim ADCOCK) writes: >In article <1229@lupine.NCD.COM> rfg@NCD.COM (Ron Guilmette) writes: > >>Are you suggesting that it may be possible to generate more efficient >>executable code if arbitrary field re-ordering (by the compiler) is allowed? > >Yes. > >>If so, are you prepared to give realistic (not contrived) examples of such >improvements? > >Yes and no. Clearly, I am not free to talk about MS future plans. >Hopefully, even a few obvious examples should demonstrate the plausability... OK. I'm willing to admit that it is just barely *plausable* that one of these fine days I may wakeup and find out that everyone is taking their personal fusion-powered helicopters to work, that the Jetsons are my next door neighbors, and that some whiz-bang compiler will be smart enough to reorder fields for me such that I end up with faster code. (Note however that, to the best of my knowledge anyway, no such compilers for *any* language that provides "record types" now exists. Still, that's besides the point. If men can walk on the moon, who knows.) >Agreed. That's why I suggested that one approach might be that "struct" >means the same layout as C, as long as you don't derive. Then all your >C code continues to work. One can think up reasons why one might want >to use inheritence in matching machine registers, but that seems pushing it, >to my mind. Now that I've admited that future compilers should not be *unduly* constrained by my own antiquated way of thinking about them, I'd like to say that it still seems that user should have an (ANSI standard) way of getting layouts exactly the way they want them (for all the reasons which have already been mentioned) when necessary. If the default is that the compiler has control of the layout (rather than the programmer) I don't even mind that, so long as the programmer can get control when necessary (via the proper syntactic incantations). I'm not keen on the idea that the use of the word "struct" (as opposed to "class") should be taken as the indicator of the programmer's desires in this regard. Somebody suggested that nesting the class/struct declaration within an `extern "C" {}' section might be a nice way to indicate that good old fashioned programmer-controlled layout is being requested. That sounds reasonable to me. Furthermore, it seems to be consistant with the existing uses for `extern "C" {}' and it also allows for the possibility of getting an entire set of related classes layed out the way you want/need them. Note howver that just using `extern "C"' as a prefix, as in: extern "C" struct s { unsigned i:7; unsigned j:9; }; will not work well because there could be some confusion in cases like: extern "C" struct s {...} foobar (int i); In that case people might get confused about whether the `extern "C"' applied only to the declared function or to both the function and the struct type definition. >Ron continues on, arguing strongly for the advantages on manually clustering >over automatic clustering. I disagree. I think performance in other >OOPLs and OODBs show that manual clustering doesn't work, because patterns >of usage do not remain constant. Thus clustering needs to be done >automatically, adapting to changing patterns of usage. I was only arguing that "manual" clustering is simple to implement, simple to understand, and that it is actually *needed* in some cases. I stand be these assertions, however I'm willing now to admidt that Jim A. (and Microsoft) or some other compiler developer or vendor may be able to conjure up some magic in the future which will give me faster code if the compilers is allowed to take control of this "implementation detail" in most cases. I just don't want the control to be taken away from the programmer irrevocably and in all cases. -- // Ron Guilmette - C++ Entomologist // Internet: rfg@ncd.com uucp: ...uunet!lupine!rfg // Motto: If it sticks, force it. If it breaks, it needed replacing anyway.
rfg@NCD.COM (Ron Guilmette) (08/24/90)
In article <ROLAND.90Aug20192216@wookumz.ai.mit.edu> roland@ai.mit.edu (Roland McGrath) writes: +In article <1229@lupine.NCD.COM> rfg@NCD.COM (Ron Guilmette) writes: + + In the case of a constraint which would require compilers to maintain the + programmer-specified ordering of data fields, the implementation is trivially + easy. (In fact, it is actually *harder* to do anything else!) + +So obviously lazy implementors will do what you want, and clever/hardworking +implementors will do something more. In a separate posting, I have scaled back my desires based upon your persuasive arguments. Let the clever/hardworking implementors do their best! As long as I have some way to get "as written" field ordering, I'll be happy. +Although I think I consider { "as written" field ordering } less useful +than you do, I am in favor of retaining a way to force a given field order. +Using: + +extern "C" +{ + struct foo + { + char elt0; + int elt1; + }; +} + +does this quite well. I agree 100%. I hope the x3j16 membership is listening. + Are you suggesting that it may be possible to generate more efficient + executable code if arbitrary field re-ordering (by the compiler) is allowed? + If so, are you prepared to give realistic (not contrived) examples of such + improvements? + +I'm not so prepared. Are you prepared to prove it impossible? Nope. +Where do you find these garden slugs with absolute prescience of all possible +future computer architectures and C++ implementations? In the garden, of course. :-) :-) :-> + Right now, if I have the following C code: + + struct s { + unsigned field1:24; + unsigned field2:8; + }; + + and this is in a program running on a 68000, I can get C compilers from at + least a dozen vendors that will lay this out *exactly* the same way. Thus, + I have vendor independence. That (and portability) are worth money to me. + +This is an excellent example. Since we are speaking of C++, and the example is +C code, you can simply put it within `extern "C"' and have all the guarantees +you now have with the C code. Well, I don't believe that I saw that stated in E&S, but I certainly would *like* to see it in the ANSI C++ standard. +You again presume foreknowledge of all possible future implementations. I find +such arrogance surprising from an otherwise reasonable person. I have been accused of a lot of things, but never of being "otherwise reasonable". That's a first for me. :-) -- // Ron Guilmette - C++ Entomologist // Internet: rfg@ncd.com uucp: ...uunet!lupine!rfg // Motto: If it sticks, force it. If it breaks, it needed replacing anyway.
pcg@cs.aber.ac.uk (Piercarlo Grandi) (08/25/90)
On 16 Aug 90 19:20:16 GMT, jimad@microsoft.UUCP (Jim ADCOCK) said: jimad> Actually, the will of this programmer is that C++ compilers generate the jimad> fastest and most compact code possible from my class declarations. It jimad> is not C++ compilers that are tharting this will, but rather people who jimad> want to continue using C++ as a C assembly language. These include Stroustrup, apparently. See the introduction to his first C++ book... C++ *has been designed* as an OO MOHLL/SIL. jimad> I want to be able to use C++ as a fast, efficient object oriented jimad> language. This requires compilers that have great optimization, jimad> and great freedom to optimize. Why don't you use Self? Objective C or Eiffel? Just because C++ is fashionable? IMNHO C++ is just about the only OO around with widely available compilers designed as a SIL/MOHLL . Let's keep it that way. People who want a more applications oriented language should choose something like one of the languages above. As soon as GNU CC 2.0 will be released I think that Objective C will grow very much in popularity, IMNHO. jimad> There continues this division between C/C++ people who want a compiler jimad> to "do what I say" verses "do you best optimizations." I think this jimad> issue should be addressed in the marketplace -- not in the language. This of course kills any idea of portability. You programs start to have semantics that depend, by construction, both on the compiler and the language. This is IMNHO *very* bad, vide the abominable pragma pandora box of Ada and Ansi C. It may be very good for compiler vendors, though, especially those that have or think will have a large market share, and want to get entrenched into it. Thank goodness AT&T does not reason that way, because they are too large and diverse an organization themselves. jimad> If you want to use C++ to play with machine registers, then jimad> portability is not an issue to you anyway. Ah no, not so easy. One can provide, thanks to the wonders of separate compilation or conditional preprocessing, both a slow portable version and a fast one that will not work on every implementation, but is still expressed as much as possible in the base language. jimad> Again, why should everyone's C++ compiler have to generate slower, jimad> more memory intensive code in order to meet the needs of people who jimad> feel they want to maintain intimate control over their compiler? Maybe because the language has been designed for the latter group... And because many times the compiler cannot understand the program better than they do anyhow, or requiring the compiler to do it is not a win-win situation, e.g. results in larger, slower, less reliable compilers. A language _definition_ should be independent of compiler implementation issues, but the language _design_ should well take into account such pragmatics. "advanced" features are easily botched; consider Ansi C and 'volatile', whose _omission_ makes a program undetectably erroneous, and that otherwise exists almost only to assist the optimizer. This particular problem does not apply to field reordering. There is another problem though: that it makes the binary output of programs compiled with different compilers or releases of the same compiler potentially incompatible. Do we really want to force using XDR or ASN.1 throughout? Consider also the conclusion that you and Guilmette seem to be reaching: the compiler may reorder at will by default, as long as there is some mechanism to override it. This seems the best solution, as long as you do not see the additional cost in complexity/unreliability of the manual, of the compiler, of the program build process. You have to weigh these things carefully, and if you do not, you go down the slippery path Ansi C has gone. So, are today's C/C++ multimegabyte compilers significantly more reliable and faster and generate better quality code than those that run in 64KB[+64KB]? IMNHO no, or at least not enough that the changed pragmatics should influence for design of the language (as has happened, for the worst, with Ansi C). But maybe I am wrong, and the relative cost of compile time resources (time, space, programmer confusion, reliability) vs. runtime speed have changed so much that a modest increase of the latter can be economically bought at the price of a large increase of the former. -- Piercarlo "Peter" Grandi | ARPA: pcg%uk.ac.aber.cs@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk Dept of CS, UCW Aberystwyth | UUCP: ...!mcsun!ukc!aber-cs!pcg Penglais, Aberystwyth SY23 3BZ, UK | INET: pcg@cs.aber.ac.uk
dl@g.g.oswego.edu (Doug Lea) (08/25/90)
Perhaps among the best arguments for allowing compilers to at least sometimes reorder fields is to simply make conceivable someday the use of C++ adaptations of the clever MI layout algorithms described in Pugh & Weddell's SIGPLAN '90 conference paper. For what it's worth, I think that the suggestion that compilers obey programmer field ordering only inside `extern "C"' sounds fine. -- Doug Lea, Computer Science Dept., SUNY Oswego, Oswego, NY, 13126 (315)341-2688 email: dl@g.oswego.edu or dl@cat.syr.edu UUCP :...cornell!devvax!oswego!dl or ...rutgers!sunybcs!oswego!dl
jimad@microsoft.UUCP (Jim ADCOCK) (08/28/90)
In article <259400004@inmet> stt@inmet.inmet.com writes: |Re: Allowing compilers to reorder fields "at will". | |Having used a language without strict field ordering |rules, I can testify that it is a nightmare. If you |want the compiler to reorder your fields, then you |should have to indicate it explicitly, perhaps via |a "pragma" or equivalent. Otherwise, you lose |interoperability between successive versions of |the same compiler, let alone interoperability between |different compilers. Maybe or maybe not, but C++ compilers already have the right to reorder your field orderings. Or are you proposing that the rules should be changed to prevent compilers from reordering? The only restriction right now is that within a labeled section fields must be at increasing addresses. Which neither requires nor prevents compilers from changing field orderings from your expectations, but rather leaves those decisions to the sensibilities of the compiler vendor. If some future C++ compiler supported persistence and schema evolution, would you then demand a user specified field ordering?
jimad@microsoft.UUCP (Jim ADCOCK) (08/28/90)
In article <DL.90Aug25124455@g.g.oswego.edu> dl@g.oswego.edu writes: | |Perhaps among the best arguments for allowing compilers to at least |sometimes reorder fields is to simply make conceivable someday the use |of C++ adaptations of the clever MI layout algorithms described in |Pugh & Weddell's SIGPLAN '90 conference paper. Also, at the other end of the performance spectrum, imagine creating an interactive C++ "interpreter" or actually p-coded compiler. The goal is to have minimal recompilation and relinking, in order to minimize the response time to changes. One simple scheme to accomplish this would be to not embed objects, inherit via pointer, and always tack new fields to the end of an "object's" structure. This would violate today's field ordering constraints [unless the user always added new fields to the end of a labeled section.]
peterson@csc.ti.com (Bob Peterson) (08/28/90)
In article <56940@microsoft.UUCP> jimad@microsoft.UUCP (Jim ADCOCK) writes: > ... > Or are you proposing that the rules should be >changed to prevent compilers from reordering? The only restriction >right now is that within a labeled section fields must be at increasing >addresses. Which neither requires nor prevents compilers from changing >field orderings from your expectations, but rather leaves those decisions >to the sensibilities of the compiler vendor. If some future C++ compiler >supported persistence and schema evolution, would you then demand a >user specified field ordering? A frequently stated goal of object-oriented database (OODB) systems developers is to support storage of objects over long periods of time and concurrent access to the OODB by concurrently executing programs. This implies that an object stored several years ago be fetched today. This, in turn, implies that the OODB support evolution of a stored object, should the definition of that object change. Sharing implies that different applications may request access to the same object at roughly the same time. If a C++ compiler is able to reorder the fields of an object at will, the object evolution problem faced by OODB developers is substantially more complex than if field reordering is restricted. Not only can an object definition change as a result of an explicit user action, but simply because the user has upgraded to a new version of the compiler or added a compiler from a different vendor. Requiring a recompilation of the all programs may solve the problem for programs that don't save objects. However, for environments in which objects are retained for substantial periods of time, or where objects are shared among concurrently executing program compiled with compilers using different ordering rules, a recompilation requirement doesn't seem a viable solution, IMHO. In this organization there are pieces of some programs too big to compile with cfront 2.1 and Sun's C compiler. We use g++ for these programs. Other parts of the system don't require use of g++. I would like to think that different pieces of this system would be able to access the OODB without incurring the performance penalty of converting the stored data based not only on machine architecture but based on which compiler is in use. At the very least, this is an additional, and in my opinion unnecessary, constraint. If C++ standard continues to specify that, by default, fields can be reordered, the standard should also require that the rules governing such reordering be made explicit and public. An additional requirement I'd like to see is that a conforming compiler have available a warning stating that reordering is happening. If these two requirements are included OODB vendors, as well as applications that write objects as objects, would have some hope of understanding what a compiler is doing. Allowing compiler vendors to hide such details will be costly in the long term. Bob -- Hardcopy and Electronic Addresses: Office: Bob Peterson Compuserve: 70235,326 NB 2nd Floor CSC Aisle C3 P.O. Box 861686 Usenet: peterson@csc.ti.com Plano, Tx USA 75086 (214) 995-6080 (work) or (214) 596-3720 (ans. machine)
howell@bert.llnl.gov (Louis Howell) (08/28/90)
In article <1990Aug27.212649.16101@csc.ti.com>, peterson@csc.ti.com (Bob Peterson) writes: |> [...] |> A frequently stated goal of object-oriented database (OODB) |> systems developers is to support storage of objects over long |> periods of time and concurrent access to the OODB by |> concurrently executing programs. This implies that an object |> stored several years ago be fetched today. This, in turn, |> implies that the OODB support evolution of a stored object, |> should the definition of that object change. Sharing implies |> that different applications may request access to the same |> object at roughly the same time. |> |> If a C++ compiler is able to reorder the fields of an object |> at will, the object evolution problem faced by OODB developers |> is substantially more complex than if field reordering is |> restricted. Not only can an [...] I don't buy this. The representation of objects within a program should have nothing to do with the representation of those objects within files. If an object needs a read/write capability, the OODB developer should write explicit input and output functions for that class, thus taking direct control of the ordering of class members within a file. For a large database this is desirable anyway, since even in C the compiler is permitted to leave space between members of a struct, and you would not want to store this padding for every object in a file. I really don't see why reordering of fields in C++ is any worse than the padding between fields which already existed in C. Both make the binary layout of a struct implementation-dependent. I can sympathise with those who occasionally want direct control over member arrangement, and it might be nice to provide some kind of user override to give them the control they need, but such control never really existed in an absolute sense even in C. It certainly should not be the default, since most users never need to worry about this type of detail. Louis Howell #include <std.disclaimer>
jimad@microsoft.UUCP (Jim ADCOCK) (08/29/90)
In article <PCG.90Aug25160256@athene.cs.aber.ac.uk> pcg@cs.aber.ac.uk (Piercarlo Grandi) writes: >On 16 Aug 90 19:20:16 GMT, jimad@microsoft.UUCP (Jim ADCOCK) said: > >jimad> Actually, the will of this programmer is that C++ compilers generate the >jimad> fastest and most compact code possible from my class declarations. It >jimad> is not C++ compilers that are tharting this will, but rather people who >jimad> want to continue using C++ as a C assembly language. > >These include Stroustrup, apparently. See the introduction to his first >C++ book... C++ *has been designed* as an OO MOHLL/SIL. I think it would be best to let Bjarne speak for himself directly on this issue. My impression is that his second book is carefully and deliberately worded to allow wide latitude in the implementation of the language. >jimad> I want to be able to use C++ as a fast, efficient object oriented >jimad> language. This requires compilers that have great optimization, >jimad> and great freedom to optimize. > >Why don't you use Self? Objective C or Eiffel? Just because C++ is >fashionable? Certainly the fact that C++ is by far the most popular OOPL language has something to do with it. [I wouldn't call C++ "fashionable" though -- I'd call it pragmatic. Eiffel and Self would be the "fashionable" languages, to my mind.] But also the fact remains, if one really wants to write real world commercial OO software, C++ is really the only language up to the task. [IMHO] >IMNHO C++ is just about the only OO around with widely available >compilers designed as a SIL/MOHLL . Let's keep it that way. People who >want a more applications oriented language should choose something like >one of the languages above. As soon as GNU CC 2.0 will be released I >think that Objective C will grow very much in popularity, IMNHO. Clearly I disagree with your assessment of Obj-C. And C++. >jimad> There continues this division between C/C++ people who want a compiler >jimad> to "do what I say" verses "do you best optimizations." I think this >jimad> issue should be addressed in the marketplace -- not in the language. > >This of course kills any idea of portability. You programs start to have >semantics that depend, by construction, both on the compiler and the >language. This is IMNHO *very* bad, vide the abominable pragma pandora >box of Ada and Ansi C. It may be very good for compiler vendors, though, >especially those that have or think will have a large market share, and >want to get entrenched into it. Thank goodness AT&T does not reason that >way, because they are too large and diverse an organization themselves. I think you have this backwards. In the absense of good optimizers, people have to program around the limitations of their individual compilers, and hand optimize code for a particular situation, keeping it from being reusable. I don't particularly like pragmas, but I think they may be an acceptable compromise to warn a compiler when people insist on writing hacks that rightfully would fall outside the language. Companies that design portable compilers should tend to show a bias towards keeping the language such that making portable compilers is easy. Companies that design compilers for a particular CPU or OS should tend to show a bias towards making the language highly optimizable. We should not be surprised if a tension between these two goals shows up as part of the standardization process. [standard disclaimer] >jimad> If you want to use C++ to play with machine registers, then >jimad> portability is not an issue to you anyway. > >Ah no, not so easy. One can provide, thanks to the wonders of separate >compilation or conditional preprocessing, both a slow portable version >and a fast one that will not work on every implementation, but is still >expressed as much as possible in the base language. Agreed. But does such code actually party based on the layout of a particular CPU's registers or ports? -- I think not. >jimad> Again, why should everyone's C++ compiler have to generate slower, >jimad> more memory intensive code in order to meet the needs of people who >jimad> feel they want to maintain intimate control over their compiler? > >Maybe because the language has been designed for the latter group... Hm. I would think that now that C++ is the leading OOPL it needs to try to meet the needs of the majority of its users. I would not think that the majority of people need or want to maintain intimate control of their compiler. I'd think the average OO programmer would be working on a much higher level, using libraries others provide to do the bit twiddling. Once these low level libraries are written, the many others can build on these efforts. >And because many times the compiler cannot understand the program better >than they do anyhow, or requiring the compiler to do it is not a win-win >situation, e.g. results in larger, slower, less reliable compilers. If this opinion is correct, why would it not win in the marketplace? Why cannot C++ programmers just say, hm, FuzzCo's Ultra-C++ compiler isn't worth the time/size/money or complexity. I'll just use this TinCo Tiny C++ compiler instead? Whats wrong with letting the marketplace decide these tradeoffs? Why is it necessary to force your particular engineering design tradeoff beliefs into the language definition itself? >Consider also the conclusion that you and Guilmette seem to be reaching: >the compiler may reorder at will by default, as long as there is some >mechanism to override it. This seems the best solution, as long as you >do not see the additional cost in complexity/unreliability of the >manual, of the compiler, of the program build process. You have to weigh >these things carefully, and if you do not, you go down the slippery path >Ansi C has gone. Actually, my conclusion is not that compilers may reorder at will. My conclusion is that compiler designers should have the freedom to decide these issues for themselves, and that C++ programmers should have the freedom to choose the compiler that then best serve their needs. Nothing I have proposed forces a vendor to offer a large, complicated compiler. Again, compilers already have the right to almost completely reorder a structure at will. The *only* constraint in E&S is that within a labeled section, member variables declared later will be places at "higher" addresses. The reason given for this constraint is backwards C compatibility. Well, the constraint is so weak as to offer little in backwards C compatibility. So my suggestion is to remove it, or to relegate it to those features of the language specifically addressing backwards compatibility. To my eye, having both the extern "C" construct, and a separate field ordering restriction applied accross the language, looks like a simple historical oversight, that should be fixed. >So, are today's C/C++ multimegabyte compilers significantly more >reliable and faster and generate better quality code than those that run >in 64KB[+64KB]? IMNHO no, or at least not enough that the changed >pragmatics should influence for design of the language (as has happened, >for the worst, with Ansi C). Then don't buy or use such compilers. Use one that suits your fancy. I don't propose to try to force a compiler you don't like on you. Why do you want to force your particular compiler design beliefs onto the compiler I would use? Again, my proposal is to leave this issues to the sensibilities of the compiler designers, and the power of the marketplace. Over the near term, I'd be very surprised if any compiler diverges too far from the cfront object model, because the cfront object model represents the only object model that many programmers know. So there would be great market skepticism to a compiler that introduced a very different object model. However, as time goes on, other OOPLs are going to demonstrate very different object models, and I claim we want C++ to be specified with the freedom to allow compilers to incorporate the best of those new object models. And/or to allow C++ compilers be designed simply to allow compatibility to these other object models. >But maybe I am wrong, and the relative cost of compile time resources >(time, space, programmer confusion, reliability) vs. runtime speed have >changed so much that a modest increase of the latter can be economically >bought at the price of a large increase of the former. I guess from my perspective, there is clearly not one answer to this question. The tradeoff between development costs verses runtime costs is very much a function of the number of units of your program you intend to produce. If only a couple copies of a program are to be created, development cost is paramount, and runtime cost is typically unimportant. If a company makes millions of copies of a programmer however, runtime costs outweight all other factors. A company that failed to shave the last few seconds from their software in that situation would be costing society thousands, if not millions of dollars in wasted user productivity. In the first scenerio, a C++ programmer might want to use an p-coded C++ implementation that follows a minimal recompilation strategy. This might be accomplished by inheriting via reference, not embedding objects, and tagging any newly declared members on the end of an objects' section. This is one object model totally different than the cfront model. In the second scenerio, a highly optimizing compiler might be used. Pragmas might be used to indicate when constants aren't. Pragmas might be used to indicate when a class is a leaf class. Compilations might be optimized on a module global basis. Smart linkers might winnow out vtable indirect calls. Fat tables, or tricks might be used. Fields might be reorganized based on profiling information. This would also lead to an object model very different from cfront. Thus, I don't believe one object model spans the needs of all C++ users [nor all systems C++ might run on -- such as a Rekursiv-like machine, or a Lisp-like machine, or a Smalltalk-like machine] So I believe it would be very short sighted to try to specify the C++ language strictly around a cfront-like object model. Let's leave our options for the future open.
jimad@microsoft.UUCP (Jim ADCOCK) (08/29/90)
In article <1990Aug27.212649.16101@csc.ti.com> peterson@csc.ti.com (Bob Peterson) writes: > If C++ standard continues to specify that, by default, fields can be >reordered, the standard should also require that the rules governing >such reordering be made explicit and public. An additional requirement >I'd like to see is that a conforming compiler have available a warning >stating that reordering is happening. If these two requirements are >included OODB vendors, as well as applications that write objects as >objects, would have some hope of understanding what a compiler is >doing. Allowing compiler vendors to hide such details will be costly >in the long term. Hm, I thought that OODBs were addressing this issue already. If one has software that is going to be used for a number of years, object formats are going to change -- if not by automatic compiler intervention, then by programmer manual intervention. OODBs have to be designed to allow for the evolution of the schemes used in the software, and the corresponding object layouts. Compilers have always hid field layouts from users -- details of packing have never been exposed. If some other tool, like an OODB needs to know these details, traditionally they are made available via auxiliary files or information the compiler generates, such as debugging information. If your OODB strategy insists that the layout of objects not change from now to eternity, then I don't understand how you can have a reasonable software maintainance task.
xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) (08/29/90)
howell@bert.llnl.gov (Louis Howell) writes: > peterson@csc.ti.com (Bob Peterson) writes: >|> [...] >|> If a C++ compiler is able to reorder the fields of an object >|> at will, the object evolution problem faced by OODB developers >|> is substantially more complex than if field reordering is >|> restricted. Not only can an [...] > >I don't buy this. The representation of objects within a program >should have nothing to do with the representation of those objects >within files. [...] But the problem is more pervasive than just storage in _files_; you have the identical situation in shared memory architectures, across communication links, etc. If you allow each compiler to make its own decisions about how to lay out a structure, then you force _any_ programs sharing data across comm links _or_ time _or_ memory space _or_ file storage to be compiled with compilers having the same structure layout rules designed in, or to pack and unpack the data with every sharing between separately compiled pieces of code, surely an unreasonable requirement compared to the simpler one of setting the structure layout rules once for all compilers? The _data_ maintenance headaches probably overwhelm the _code_ maintanance headaches with the freely reordered structures paradigm. Kent, the man from xanth. <xanthian@Zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> <xanthian@well.sf.ca.us>
howell@bert.llnl.gov (Louis Howell) (08/29/90)
In article <1990Aug28.211752.24905@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG>, xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: |> howell@bert.llnl.gov (Louis Howell) writes: |> > peterson@csc.ti.com (Bob Peterson) writes: |> >|> [...] |> >|> If a C++ compiler is able to reorder the fields of an object |> >|> at will, the object evolution problem faced by OODB developers |> >|> is substantially more complex than if field reordering is |> >|> restricted. Not only can an [...] |> > |> >I don't buy this. The representation of objects within a program |> >should have nothing to do with the representation of those objects |> >within files. [...] |> |> But the problem is more pervasive than just storage in _files_; you |> have the identical situation in shared memory architectures, across |> communication links, etc. If you allow each compiler to make its |> own decisions about how to lay out a structure, then you force |> _any_ programs sharing data across comm links _or_ time _or_ memory |> space _or_ file storage to be compiled with compilers having the |> same structure layout rules designed in, or to pack and unpack the |> data with every sharing between separately compiled pieces of code, |> surely an unreasonable requirement compared to the simpler one of |> setting the structure layout rules once for all compilers? |> |> The _data_ maintenance headaches probably overwhelm the _code_ |> maintanance headaches with the freely reordered structures |> paradigm. In short, you want four types of compatibility: "comm links", "time", "memory space", and "file storage". First off, "time" and "file storage" look like the same thing to me, and as I said before I don't think objects should be stored whole, but rather written and read member by member by user-designed routines. As for "memory space", I think it reasonable that every processor in a MIMD machine, whether shared memory or distributed memory, should use the same compiler. This, and a requirement that a compiler should always produce the same memory layout from a given class definition, even in different pieces of code, give enough compatibility for MIMD architectures. Finally, the issue of communication over comm links strikes me as very similar to that of file storage. If compatibility is essential, design the protocol yourself; don't expect the compiler to do it for you. Pack exactly the bits you want to send into a string of bytes, and send that. You wouldn't expect to send structures from a Mac to a Cray and have them mean anything, so why expect to be able to send structures from an ATT-compiled program to a GNU-compiled program? If you want low-level compatibility, write low-level code to provide it, but don't handicap the compiler writers. Louis Howell #include <std.disclaimer>
rae@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (Reid Ellis) (08/30/90)
In <1313@lupine.NCD.COM> rfg@NCD.COM (Ron Guilmette) writes: >I'm not keen on the idea that the use of the word "struct" (as opposed to >"class") should be taken as the indicator of the programmer's desires in If you actually do this, how about using "volatile"? e.g.: volatile class foo { int a; char b; someType c; }; It even looks like what you mean. Not that I think this is a good idea either, however. :-) Just suggesting a "nicer" syntax. Reid -- Reid Ellis 264 Broadway Avenue, Toronto ON, M4P 1V9 Canada rae@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu || rae%alias@csri.toronto.edu || +1 416 487 1383
diamond@tkou02.enet.dec.com (diamond@tkovoa) (08/31/90)
In article <259400004@inmet> stt@inmet.inmet.com writes: >Re: Allowing compilers to reorder fields "at will". >... you lose >interoperability between successive versions of >the same compiler, let alone interoperability between >different compilers. You lose nothing, because you never had such interoperability. In C, padding can change from one release to the next, or depending on optimization level. In Pascal, a compiler can decline to do packing. If I'm not mistaken, in Ada, bit-numbering does not have to match the intuitive (big-endian or little-endian) numbering. >Having used a language without strict field ordering >rules, I can testify that it is a nightmare. Surely you have such nightmares in every language you have used. Except maybe assembly. In order to avoid such nightmares, you have to impose additional quality-of-implementation restrictions on the choice of implementations that you are willing to buy. -- Norman Diamond, Nihon DEC diamond@tkou02.enet.dec.com We steer like a sports car: I use opinions; the company uses the rack.
xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) (09/01/90)
howell@bert.llnl.gov (Louis Howell) writes: > xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: >|> howell@bert.llnl.gov (Louis Howell) writes: >|> > peterson@csc.ti.com (Bob Peterson) writes: >|> >|> [...] >|> >|> If a C++ compiler is able to reorder the fields of an object >|> >|> at will, the object evolution problem faced by OODB developers >|> >|> is substantially more complex than if field reordering is >|> >|> restricted. Not only can an [...] >|> > >|> >I don't buy this. The representation of objects within a program >|> >should have nothing to do with the representation of those objects >|> >within files. [...] >|> >|> [...] If you allow each compiler to make its own decisions about how >|> to lay out a structure, then you force _any_ programs sharing data >|> across comm links _or_ time _or_ memory space _or_ file storage to >|> be compiled with compilers having the same structure layout rules >|> designed in, or to pack and unpack the data with every sharing >|> between separately compiled pieces of code, [...] >In short, you want four types of compatibility: "comm links", "time", >"memory space", and "file storage". First off, "time" and "file >storage" look like the same thing to me, Not so. If a program compiled with compiler A stores data in a file, and a program compiled with compiler B can't extract it, that is one type of compatibility problem to solve, and it can be solved with the compilers at hand. But if a program compiled with compiler A revision 1.0 stores data in a file, and a program compiled with compiler A revision 4.0 cannot extract it, that is a compatibility problem to solve of a different type. Mandating no standard for structure layout forces programmers in both these cases to anticipate problems, unpack the data, and store it in some unstructured format. Tough on the programmer who realizes this only when compiler A revision 4.0 can no longer read the structures written to the file with compiler A revision 1.0; it may not be around any more to allow a program to be compiled to read and rewrite that data. >and as I said before I don't >think objects should be stored whole, but rather written and read >member by member by user-designed routines. That is a portability versus time/space efficiency choice. By refusing to accept mandatory structure layout standards, compiler writers would force that choice to be made in one way only. >As for "memory space", >I think it reasonable that every processor in a MIMD machine, whether >shared memory or distributed memory, should use the same compiler. That isn't good enough. I've worked in shops with several million lines of code (about 7.0) in executing software. By mandating _no_ standards for structure layout, you force that _all_ of this code be recompiled with every new release of the compiler, if the paradigm of data sharing is a shared memory environment. Again, by refusing to make one choice, you force several other choices in ways perhaps unacceptable to the compiler user. In this situation, that might well involve several man-years of effort, and it is sure to invoke every bug in the new release of the compiler simultaneously, and would very likely bring operations to a standstill. With no data structure layout standard, you have removed the user's choice to recompile and test incrementally, or else forced him to pack and unpack data even to share it in memory. >This, and a requirement that a compiler should always produce the >same memory layout from a given class definition, even in different >pieces of code, give enough compatibility for MIMD architectures. Not if you don't mandate that compatibility across time, it doesn't. >Finally, the issue of communication over comm links strikes me as >very similar to that of file storage. If compatibility is essential, >design the protocol yourself; don't expect the compiler to do it for >you. Pack exactly the bits you want to send into a string of bytes, >and send that. You wouldn't expect to send structures from a Mac >to a Cray and have them mean anything, so why expect to be able to >send structures from an ATT-compiled program to a GNU-compiled >program? If you want low-level compatibility, write low-level code >to provide it, but don't handicap the compiler writers. Same comments apply. In a widespread worldwide network of communicating hardware, lack of a standard removes the option to send structures intact. One choice (let compiler writers have free reign for their ingenuity in packing structures for size/speed) removes another choice (let programmers have free reign for their ingenuity in accomplishing speedy and effective communications). Somebody loses in each case, and I see the losses on the user side to far outweigh in cost and importance the losses on the compiler vendor side. Then again, I write application code, not compilers, which could conceivably taint my ability to make an unbiased call in this case. ;-) Kent, the man from xanth. <xanthian@Zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> <xanthian@well.sf.ca.us>
stephen@estragon.stars.flab.Fujitsu.JUNET (Stephen P Spackman) (09/03/90)
In article <1990Sep1.131041.15411@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: howell@bert.llnl.gov (Louis Howell) writes: > xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: >|> [...] If you allow each compiler to make its own decisions about how >|> to lay out a structure, then you force _any_ programs sharing data >|> across comm links _or_ time _or_ memory space _or_ file storage to >|> be compiled with compilers having the same structure layout rules >|> designed in, or to pack and unpack the data with every sharing >|> between separately compiled pieces of code, [...] >In short, you want four types of compatibility: "comm links", "time", >"memory space", and "file storage". First off, "time" and "file >storage" look like the same thing to me, [...] But if a program compiled with compiler A revision 1.0 stores data in a file, and a program compiled with compiler A revision 4.0 cannot extract it, that is a compatibility problem to solve of a different type. Mandating no standard for structure layout forces programmers in both these cases to anticipate problems, unpack the data, and store it in some unstructured format. Tough on the programmer who realizes this only when compiler A revision 4.0 can no longer read the structures written to the file with compiler A revision 1.0; it may not be around any more to allow a program to be compiled to read and rewrite that data. I feel a little odd posting here, being radically anti-c++ myself, but I *did* drop in and something about this thread is bothering me. (-: (honestly!) Look, if you're going to take an ugly language and then bolt on a kitchen sink and afterburners :-), why not put in the one thing that is REALLY missing from C: * STANDARD BINARY TRANSPUT * Can't we have the compiler provide the trivial little shim function that will read and write arbitrary data structures to binary streams? Most operating systems now seem to have standard external data representations, which are intended for precisely this kind of purpose, and a "default" version would not be hard to cook up (or appropriate). The runtime overhead is usually dwarfed by transput cost, and you get better RPC support as a freebie. That way only the *external* representation format needs to be specified, and the runtime image can be as zippy as it please. You can even read and write code if you're willing to interpret it - or call the compiler, if you've got it kicking around. >As for "memory space", >I think it reasonable that every processor in a MIMD machine, whether >shared memory or distributed memory, should use the same compiler. >[...] Ahem. Offhand I can think of any number of HETEROGENEOUS shared-memory machines. Mainframes have IOPs. Amigae share memory between bigendian, word-align 680x0s and littlendian, byte-align 80x86es (-: amusingly enough you can do things about bytesex by negating all the addresses on one side and offsetting all the bases, but... :-). Video processors with very *serious* processing power and their own (vendor-supplied) C compilers abound. Now, I'll grant, a *real* operating system, (-: if someone would only write one for me, :-) would mandate a common intermediate code so that vendors only supplied back-end, but even then I'm NOT going to pay interpretation overhead on all variable accesses on, say, my video processor, my database engine, by graph reduction engine and my vector processor, just because my "main" CPU wants a certain packing strategy! There *must* be a mechanism for binary transmission of binary data, this must *not* be the programmer's responsibility, and while localising all code generation in the operating system's caching and replication component is the obvious thing to do, (a) that day hasn't arrived yet and (b) the compiler will STILL have to get involved and generate the appropriate type descriptors and shim functions. stephen p spackman stephen@estragon.uchicago.edu 312.702.3982
howell@bert.llnl.gov (Louis Howell) (09/05/90)
In article <1990Sep1.131041.15411@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG>, xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: |> howell@bert.llnl.gov (Louis Howell) writes: |> >In short, you want four types of compatibility: "comm links", "time", |> >"memory space", and "file storage". First off, "time" and "file |> >storage" look like the same thing to me, |> |> Not so. If a program compiled with compiler A stores data in a file, |> and a program compiled with compiler B can't extract it, that is one |> type of compatibility problem to solve, and it can be solved with the |> compilers at hand. |> |> But if a program compiled with compiler A revision 1.0 stores data in |> a file, and a program compiled with compiler A revision 4.0 cannot |> extract it, that is a compatibility problem to solve of a different |> type. Mandating no standard for structure layout forces programmers |> in both these cases to anticipate problems, unpack the data, and store |> it in some unstructured format. Tough on the programmer who realizes |> this only when compiler A revision 4.0 can no longer read the structures |> written to the file with compiler A revision 1.0; it may not be around |> any more to allow a program to be compiled to read and rewrite that data. I don't want to reduce this discussion to finger-pointing and name-calling, but I think this hypothetical programmer deserved what he got. I think it's a useful maxim to NEVER write anything important in a format that you can't read. This doesn't necessarily mean ASCII---there's nothing wrong with storing signed or unsigned integers, IEEE format floats, etc., in binary form, since you can always read the data back out of the file in these formats. If a programmer whines because he depended on some nebulous "standard structure format" and got burned, then I say let him whine. Now if there actually were a standard---IEEE, ANSI, or whatever---then the compilers should certainly support it. Recent comments in this newsgroup show, however, that there isn't even a general agreement on what a standard should look like. Let's let the state of the art develop to that point before we start mandating standards. |> [...] |> >As for "memory space", |> >I think it reasonable that every processor in a MIMD machine, whether |> >shared memory or distributed memory, should use the same compiler. |> |> That isn't good enough. I've worked in shops with several million lines |> of code (about 7.0) in executing software. By mandating _no_ standards |> for structure layout, you force that _all_ of this code be recompiled with |> every new release of the compiler, if the paradigm of data sharing is a |> shared memory environment. Again, by refusing to make one choice, you |> force several other choices in ways perhaps unacceptable to the compiler |> user. In this situation, that might well involve several man-years of |> effort, and it is sure to invoke every bug in the new release of the |> compiler simultaneously, and would very likely bring operations to a |> standstill. With no data structure layout standard, you have removed the |> user's choice to recompile and test incrementally, or else forced him to |> pack and unpack data even to share it in memory. This is the only one of your arguments that I can really sympathize with. I've never worked directly on a project of anywhere near that size. As a test, however, I just timed the compilation of my own current project. 4500 lines of C++ compiled from source to executable in 219 seconds on a Sun 4. Scaling linearly to 7 million lines gives 3.41e5 seconds or about 95 hours of serial computer time---large, but doable. Adding in the human time required to deal with the inevitable bugs and incompatibilities, it becomes clear that switching compilers is a major undertaking that should not be undertaken more often than once a year or so. The alternative, though, dealing with a multitude of different modules each compiled under slightly different conditions, sounds to me like an even greater nightmare. Imagine a code that only works when module A is compiled with version 1.0, module B only works under 2.3, and so on. Much better to switch compilers very seldom. If you MUST work that way, though, note that you would not expect the ordering methods to change with every incremental release. Changes like that would constitute a major compiler revision, and would happen only rarely. You can still recompile and test incrementally if you maintain separate test suites for each significant module of the code. If the only test is to run a single 7 million line program and see if it smokes, your project is doomed from the start. (1/2 :-) ) Again, most users don't work in this type of environment. A monolithic code should be written in a very stable language to minimize revisions. (Fortran 66 comes to mind. :-) The price is not using the most up to date tools. C++ just isn't old enough yet to be very stable. If I suggested changing the meaning of a Fortran format statement, I'd be hung from the nearest tree, and I'd deserve it, too. |> [...] |> >Finally, the issue of communication over comm links strikes me as |> >very similar to that of file storage. If compatibility is essential, |> >design the protocol yourself; don't expect the compiler to do it for |> >you. Pack exactly the bits you want to send into a string of bytes, |> >and send that. You wouldn't expect to send structures from a Mac |> >to a Cray and have them mean anything, so why expect to be able to |> >send structures from an ATT-compiled program to a GNU-compiled |> >program? If you want low-level compatibility, write low-level code |> >to provide it, but don't handicap the compiler writers. |> |> Same comments apply. In a widespread worldwide network of communicating |> hardware, lack of a standard removes the option to send structures intact. |> One choice (let compiler writers have free reign for their ingenuity in |> packing structures for size/speed) removes another choice (let programmers |> have free reign for their ingenuity in accomplishing speedy and effective |> communications). Somebody loses in each case, and I see the losses on |> the user side to far outweigh in cost and importance the losses on the |> compiler vendor side. I think Stephen Spackman's suggestion of standarizing the stream protocol, but not the internal storage management, is the proper way to go here. |> Then again, I write application code, not compilers, which could |> conceivably taint my ability to make an unbiased call in this case. ;-) Hey, I'm a user too! I do numerical analysis and fluid mechanics. What I do want is the best tools available for doing my job. If stability were a big concern I'd work in Fortran---C++ is considered pretty radical around here. I think the present language is a big improvement over alternatives, but it still has a way to go. If we clamp down on the INTERNAL details of the compiler now, we just shut the door on possible future improvements, and the action will move on to the the next language (D, C+=2, or whatever). C++ just isn't old enough yet for us to put it out to pasture. As a compromise, why don't we add to the language the option of specifying every detail of structure layout---placement as well as ordering. This will satisfy users who need low-level control over structures, without forcing every user to painfully plot out every structure. Just don't make it the default; most people don't need this capability, and instead should be given the best machine code the compiler can generate. Louis Howell #include <std.disclaimer>
peter@objy.objy.com (Peter Moore) (09/09/90)
In article <1990Sep1.131041.15411@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG>, xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: << I will paraphrase, since the >>'s were getting too deep: If the standard doesn't mandate structure layout, then compiler writers will be free to change structure layout over time and render all existing stored binary data obsolete >> Now hold on. There may be arguments for enforcing structure layout, but this sure isn't one of them. If the different releases of the compiler change the internal representation of structures, then all old binaries and libraries will become incompatible. This is immediately unacceptable to me, without any secondary worries about old binary data. If a vendor tried to do that, I would simple change vendors, and never come back. And no sane vendor would try such a change. The vendor himself has linkers, debuggers, libraries, and compilers for other languages that all would change, not to mention thousands of irate customers burning the vendor in effigy. There are so many things that a vendor could change that would cause incompatibility: calling formats, floating point formats, object file formats, etc.. The vendor could take 3 years to upgrade to ANSI or insist on supplying non-standard features that can't be turned off. Structure layout is just a small part. By your argument, ANSI should legislate them all, and that is unreasonable and WAY too restrictive on implementations. The standard can never protect you from an incompetent or malicious vendor. It can only act as a common ground for well intentioned vendors and customers to meet. Peter Moore peter@objy.com
stephen@estragon.uchicago.edu (Stephen P Spackman) (09/10/90)
[Apologies in advance for the temperature level - I think my thermostat is broke] In article <1990Sep8.154622@objy.objy.com> peter@objy.objy.com (Peter Moore) writes: In article <1990Sep1.131041.15411@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG>, xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: << I will paraphrase, since the >>'s were getting too deep: If the standard doesn't mandate structure layout, then compiler writers will be free to change structure layout over time and render all existing stored binary data obsolete >> Now hold on. There may be arguments for enforcing structure layout, but this sure isn't one of them. If the different releases of the compiler change the internal representation of structures, then all old binaries and libraries will become incompatible. This is immediately unacceptable to me, without any secondary worries about old binary data. If a vendor tried to do that, I would simple change vendors, and never come back. And no sane vendor would try such a change. The vendor himself has linkers, debuggers, libraries, and compilers for other languages that all would change, not to mention thousands of irate customers burning the vendor in effigy. Now you hold on. Since the binary layout of structures is NOT defined, any code that relies on it is BROKEN. Your old binaries, if they are properly written, are not "damaged" by a binary representation upgrade, any more than installing a new machine with a different architecture on your local net breaks existing applications: if the applications WEREN'T broken, they still aren't, because they do not rely on undefined behaviour. As for the libraries, I'm sure the vendor will be glad to supply new copies of the ones he provides with the upgrade (and I assure you that his recompiling them will not be half such a chore as you imply), and your own you can rebuild with make(1). Furthermore, you notice that your "solution" is insane: changing vendors regularly will make the "problem" happen more often and more severely, unless you ultimately succeed in finding one who has a strict bug-maintenance policy and effectively never upgrades his product. A more sane solution would be never to install upgrades, and just learn to work around the limitations you encounter (like not being able to generate code for a new architecture, for example). The standard can never protect you from an incompetent or malicious vendor. It can only act as a common ground for well intentioned vendors and customers to meet. Or, in this case, competent and well-intentioned vendors who try to keep up with the technology. I don't know if I'll ever end up writing commercial compilers, but if I do, Mr. Moore, please do us both a favour and don't buy them. Because you can *bet* that more than just binary layouts are going to change as the optimisation library is extended. stephen p spackman stephen@estragon.uchicago.edu 312.702.3982