Luce.wbst@XEROX.COM (12/20/88)
In article <221@lakesys.UUCP> jamesd@lakesys.UUCP writes: > WHat you are about to do is VERY illigal. You WILL be sued by TSR. I ought > to know they tried to sue me too! > Just a warning... They could care less about their customers! I appreciate the intention of the warning, but it left me with the following query. I was under the impression that as long as I, in no way, re-distributed the data, and utilized it ONLY for personal use, I should have no difficulty, since I am in no way "competing" with any current or future marketable item from TSR. Therefore I could not be accused of "hurting" TSR's market reguarding such data, and so could not possibly be accused of costing TSR any loss in revenue, and thereby any justification of lawsuit. I can understand the problem if I were planning on re-distributing the data, either as a commercial product, or even as a PD product, since I then could be accused of competing with TSR. However if, as I said, I am using the data for PERSONAL USE ONLY, and have absolutely NO intention of re-distribution, does the same problem hold, and if so with what justification? What jamesd@lakesys.UUCP's message would appear to indicate is that I, having purchased the appropriate manuals and information, from TSR in the standard fashion, do not have the "right" to utilize, FOR MY PERSONAL USE ONLY, that information in the most appropriate fashion to my purpose. Is this correct??? This would further seem to indicate that if I wanted to cut up my books and put all the "important" data on 1 huge sheet of paper, again, FOR MY PERSONAL USE ONLY, that this would be prohibited. Can this possibly be correct? And if so, with what justification? HACKing, it's not a game, it's an adventure, John P.S. Please include any appropriate Trademarks and Copyrights where appropriate.
gandreas@umn-d-ub.D.UMN.EDU (Glenn Andreas) (12/21/88)
In article <881220-075538-4806@Xerox> Luce.wbst@Xerox.COM writes: > >In article <221@lakesys.UUCP> jamesd@lakesys.UUCP writes: > >> WHat you are about to do is VERY illigal. You WILL be sued by TSR. I ought >> to know they tried to sue me too! > >> Just a warning... They could care less about their customers! ^^^^^ couldn't > > > >I appreciate the intention of the warning, but it left me with the following >query. Oh, what the hey. I'll take a stab at this... > > > >I was under the impression that as long as I, in no way, re-distributed the >data, and utilized it ONLY for personal use, I should have no >difficulty, since I am in no way "competing" with any current or future >marketable item from TSR. Therefore I could not be accused of "hurting" >TSR's market reguarding such data, and so could not possibly be accused >of costing TSR any loss in revenue, and thereby any justification of >lawsuit. But, one of the problems (though not exactly your problem) could be that you asked if anyone had the stuff on-line and if you could have a copy of it, right? Now this said person with the stuff on line, in order to get it to you, would be re-distributing copyright material. And by the way, copyrights (or should we say TSR) don't care about "hurting" the market, etc... Copyright material IS copyright material, and unless you are explicitly given the right to it, you can't use it. > >I can understand the problem if I were planning on re-distributing the >data, either as a commercial product, or even as a PD product, since >I then could be accused of competing with TSR. However if, as I said, I am >using the data for PERSONAL USE ONLY, and have absolutely NO intention of >re-distribution, does the same problem hold, and if so with what justification? > >What jamesd@lakesys.UUCP's message would appear to indicate is that I, >having purchased the appropriate manuals and information, from TSR in >the standard fashion, do not have the "right" to utilize, >FOR MY PERSONAL USE ONLY, that information in the most appropriate fashion >to my purpose. Is this correct??? My guess is that you have the right to use said information in a manner consistant with the copyright. Read over the copyright on the inside of the appropriate book for exact details, but my guess is that you do have the "right" to utilize FOR YOUR PERSONAL USE ONLY all material and information, but not copying the tables to make your own "DM Screen" for example. You would not be able to distribute them, either. Copyrights involve five exclusive rights: 1) The exclusive right to make copies 2) The exclusive right to distribute copies to the public 3) The exclusive right to prepare derivative works 4) The exclusive right to perform the work in public 5) The exclusive right to display the work in public Right 4 mainly applies to plays, dances and the like, while right 5 would include showing a film, however right 4 may or may not apply to playing a game of D&D (and for that matter 5 as well). My guess is that in order to be able to use the material for the purposes intended, rights 4 (and 5) are granted to the owner of the material. After all, what good is a game if you can't play it (except maybe by yourself in a small closet where no one else can see you). Clearly, by having it for "your own personal use" you are not violating right 2. But, there is right 1, which prohibits copying (although there is a law allowing archival copies of software). There is also right 3, about derivative works, which for example would be taking a book and making a screenplay, abridged version or translating to another language. Since you are translating the rules (or at least tables) from paper to electronic media, this could be considered a derivative work. So it looks like you are caught by these two things (but see below). However, you might be able to get around part of this, if rather than having copies of the tables, you were to devise some sort of formula that would generate tables that were the same. Don't quote me on this. Plus, many of the tables in D&D are very non-mathematical. Derivative works right poses another question. In earlier copies of the DMG EGG says to make what ever modification you need to make it playable - "These rules are just guidelines", or something to that effect (I've got a first printing - and it is in there). I believe that this phrase was later removed. Now if you ask me, this sounds like he waved the right to make derivative works. > >This would further seem to indicate that if I wanted to cut up my books >and put all the "important" data on 1 huge sheet of paper, again, >FOR MY PERSONAL USE ONLY, that this would be prohibited. >Can this possibly be correct? And if so, with what justification? This seems perfectly legal in within all five of the exclusive rights of a copyright (you are not copying, distributing, performaing or displaying, though this could be considered a derivative work, but no by the way I understand things - since this is the same material, just rearranged) > > HACKing, it's not a game, it's an adventure, Yes, but copyrights are all a big ugly sticky nasty mess. > John > >P.S. Please include any appropriate Trademarks and Copyrights where > appropriate. Disclaimer: I'm not a laywer, so the above advice is just the ravings of a madman. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= = "Whether you like it, or don't like it, sit | - gandreas@ub.d.umn.edu - = = back and take a look at it, because it's the | Glenn Andreas = = best going today! WOOOOoooo!" - Ric Flair | = =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
VICPAUA@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu (12/21/88)
In article <881220-075538-4806@Xerox>, Luce.wbst@XEROX.COM writes: >In article <221@lakesys.UUCP> jamesd@lakesys.UUCP writes: >> WHat you are about to do is VERY illigal. You WILL be sued by TSR. I ought >> to know they tried to sue me too! > >I was under the impression that as long as I, in no way, re-distributed the >data, and utilized it ONLY for personal use, I should have no >difficulty, since I am in no way "competing" with any current or future >marketable item from TSR. Therefore I could not be accused of "hurting" >TSR's market reguarding such data, and so could not possibly be accused >of costing TSR any loss in revenue, and thereby any justification of >lawsuit. > As someone who will (hopefully) soon be wrangling over the problems of game copyrights, to the best of my non-legal knowledge, you are completely correct - as long as your "DM's aid" is used BY YOU and is not distributed to ANYONE else, you're just fine. To draw an analogy, you can make archival copies of copyrighted software - you just can't distribute them to anyone. (On a more practical (and non-legal) note: if you used such a aid only for your own use, I don't know how TSR would ever find out you're using it, even if (by some means) it WAS illegal. Unless TSR has spies every- where...Hmmmm...) Paul Vick (VICPAUA @ YALEVM) "The first 90% of a programming project takes the first 90% of the time, while the last 10% takes the other 90%."
jamesd@lakesys.UUCP (James Dicke) (12/26/88)
In article <159@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu> VICPAUA@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu writes: >In article <881220-075538-4806@Xerox>, Luce.wbst@XEROX.COM writes: >>I was under the impression that as long as I, in no way, re-distributed the >>data, and utilized it ONLY for personal use, I should have no >>difficulty, since I am in no way "competing" with any current or future >>marketable item from TSR. Therefore I could not be accused of "hurting" >>TSR's market reguarding such data, and so could not possibly be accused >>of costing TSR any loss in revenue, and thereby any justification of >>lawsuit. >> > > As someone who will (hopefully) soon be wrangling over the problems of >game copyrights, to the best of my non-legal knowledge, you are >completely correct - as long as your "DM's aid" is used BY YOU and is not >distributed to ANYONE else, you're just fine. To draw an analogy, you can >make archival copies of copyrighted software - you just can't distribute >them to anyone. > (On a more practical (and non-legal) note: if you used such a aid only >for your own use, I don't know how TSR would ever find out you're using >it, even if (by some means) it WAS illegal. Unless TSR has spies every- >where...Hmmmm...) Where as this above statment is true- there are a few points worth covering. First of all I wrote a BBS using AD&D rules. It in no way competed or reduced the amount of revenue TSR was making- in fact it made several people actually by the manuals because of my system. But the fact remains that TSR dosn't care. If you write a product using their system its an infringment of thier copyrights- plain and simple. If you were to write a DM's helper and only use it yourself and never let your freinds use it or have a copy of it and never dropped it into the public domain you would most likly be safe. But of what worth is something like that? And true TSR can't spy on everyone but if you are passing a program around and you have enemies- look out. The only point I was tring to get across is the sole fact that using the Net (or any other means) to distribute the copyright materials of TSR (namely thier data) is illegal and there is bond to be someone watching in the netland. It was simply a warning. __________________________________________________________________________ | king@abyss.UUCP | {backbone,uunet}!marque!lakesys!abyss!king | %|-----------------------+--------------------------------------------------| %| "God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent- it says so right here on | %| the label." God is a trademark of AT&T Bell Labs. ** Space for rent ** | %|__________________________________________________________________________| %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
ewhac@well.UUCP (Leo L. Schwab) (12/27/88)
In article <881220-075538-4806@Xerox> Luce.wbst@Xerox.COM writes: >In article <221@lakesys.UUCP> jamesd@lakesys.UUCP writes: >> WHat you are about to do is VERY illigal. You WILL be sued by TSR. I ought >> to know they tried to sue me too! >> Just a warning... They could care less about their customers! > >I was under the impression that as long as I, in no way, re-distributed the >data, and utilized it ONLY for personal use, I should have no >difficulty, since I am in no way "competing" with any current or future >marketable item from TSR. [ ... ] AAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! NOOOOO!!!!!!!!! PUH-LEEEEZZ don't start a Copyright War here, too. My 'n' key is already worn out from a similar war over in comp.sys.amiga. _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ Leo L. Schwab -- The Guy in The Cape INET: well!ewhac@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU \_ -_ Recumbent Bikes: UUCP: pacbell > !{well,unicom}!ewhac O----^o The Only Way To Fly. hplabs / (pronounced "AE-wack") "Work FOR? I don't work FOR anybody! I'm just having fun." -- The Doctor