[comp.lsi] VLSI Design Tools on PCs

venkati@sequent.UUCP (Venkat Iyer) (07/11/90)

Someone asked for the phone number of IC Designs in Seattle(actually Kirkland,
a suburb)
(who make VLSI design tools which run on PCs).

My e-mail to this person bounced, so I am posting this number here:
(206) 821 9202; contact person is John Fallisgaard

Their product is called ICWorks and includes schematic editor, netlist capture
and DRC checker.  (It has been a while; so this may not be quite accurate)

Venkat

gajones@logos.Berkeley.EDU (Gary A. Jones) (07/12/90)

For VLSI Design tools on the PC, in this case only the 386, I suggest looking
at the tools from Integrated Silicon Systems, Inc.  Research Triangle Park, 
North Carolina, USA.  They also have sales offices in Santa Clara, Ca  and 
the Los Angeles area.   The toll number is (919) 361-5814, but they have had 
adds in High Performance Systems which includes a toll-free number.  I can't
remember it, right now. 

They started on the PC and now have versions for unix and X-based systems.
The tools started as a mask layout editor and now includes various DRC, EDIF,
net-list, logic synthesis tools.  This is a well established and supported
set of tools.  I do not have pricing info.  It can vary greatly according to 
the set of tools which you choose.

Gary Jones
gajones@ic.berkeley.edu

dole@garth.UUCP (Harry Dole) (07/27/90)

At DAC, I saw ISS, Integrated Silicon Systems, with a PC based IC layout
system.  Seat cost is 20K, but for a PC, it comes with a graphics card
and monitor.  The company is based in the Research Triangle Park, but
my local contact is Lynda Muns-Mason, 408-562-6154.

I have not seen the product demonstrated.  Moreover, I have no connection
with the company, and, as far as I know, neither does the company I work for.

Harry Dole

rick@ameristar (Rick Spanbauer) (07/27/90)

>At DAC, I saw ISS, Integrated Silicon Systems, with a PC based IC layout
>system.  Seat cost is 20K, but for a PC, it comes with a graphics card

I am curious why anyone would go to the trouble of doing IC design
on a PC.  It would seem that unless one is designing $450 Mosis Tiny
Chips, the fab costs for just one run approach the cost of a workstation, 
ie if one has the dollars for fab (several runs usually), then it would 
seem the workstation cost wouldn't be a problem.  Or is it the case that 
commercial IC design software is just cheaper on PCs as it is for eg PCB
design software?

					Rick Spanbauer
					Ameristar
				

sllu@jenny.isi.edu (Shih-Lien Lu) (07/28/90)

In article <1990Jul27.145255.4742@ameristar> rick@ameristar (Rick Spanbauer) writes:
>>At DAC, I saw ISS, Integrated Silicon Systems, with a PC based IC layout
>>system.  Seat cost is 20K, but for a PC, it comes with a graphics card
>
>I am curious why anyone would go to the trouble of doing IC design
>on a PC.  It would seem that unless one is designing $450 Mosis Tiny
>Chips, the fab costs for just one run approach the cost of a workstation, 
>ie if one has the dollars for fab (several runs usually), then it would 
>seem the workstation cost wouldn't be a problem.  Or is it the case that 
>commercial IC design software is just cheaper on PCs as it is for eg PCB
>design software?

Yes.  The hardware cost is nothing, SUN just annouced a low end
color SPARC for < $10,000 (list price, with educational discount you
may get it for ~$6,200.00). However the CAD/CAE tools are still expensive.

Here are some typical prices for Cadence software running on SUN:

frame work ~ $10,000
layout     ~ $20,000
Dracula III~ $50,000

total ==== ~ $80,000

This is the bare minimun. You would want to have schematic capture tools
simulation tool, extraction, and layout verses schematic.
Plus typically CAD/CAE company charge customer 12-15% for maintanence a year.
Just on the minumun software you may spend easily $10,000
(price of a SPARC station) a year on maintenance. Moreover, the software
cost is per seat cost.

I beleive the original question should have been does anyone
know of any AFFORDABLE software tools. I believe most of
the inexpensive tools runs on PC. Aptos (a PCB software company)
has extented their PCB stuff to include IC layout. Their PCB/IC layout
tool cost $750.00 their GDSII output program costs $245.00. You may get a
demo disk by calling (408)662-8364. In my opinion, most of
the PC layout tools are still limited by the DOS memory size of
640K. I believe Tanner Research is coming out with a version that
will use extented memory in protected mode. I do not know if
ICEdit has the extended memory capability. Someone also mentioned
about IC Designs. Does it use extented memory? I know Aptos doesn't at
this time.

It seems like university tools (ie. Magic) are still possible solution although
one has to use them with care.

Shih-Lien

hui@van-bc.wimsey.bc.ca (Michael Hui) (07/28/90)

In article <1990Jul27.145255.4742@ameristar> rick@ameristar (Rick Spanbauer) writes:
>I am curious why anyone would go to the trouble of doing IC design
>on a PC.  It would seem that unless one is designing $450 Mosis Tiny
>Chips, the fab costs for just one run approach the cost of a workstation, 
[ ... ]

That type of software is perfectly adequate for laying out an analog IC.

jws@thumper.mlb.semi.harris.com (James W. Swonger) (07/30/90)

 What level of hardware capability and software complexity you need depends
on the circuit you are doing. For a small, slow design (few hundred gates,
clock speed << gate delay) you could probably get by with a PC setup. You
might even succeed in fooling a pcb layout system, changing layers and
rules to allow you to do an IC layout.

 The designs I work on require workstation hardware just to store the
files. We simulate for function, timing and fault coverage and I have
stimulus files that run to tens of megabytes, 10000+ line netlists, etc.
We face design specs that require we _know_ what the part will do before
we build it, which in turn requires that we have an accurate set of models
for a thoroughly characterized library of components. This is what you 
will be missing without the support of a vendor.

 You may be able to develop your own library, determine your timing
model numbers from spec sheets and find a simulator package which will
give you what you need. This could get you through a digital design of
low to medium complexity. You should be aware, though, that a vendor
who acts as a foundry (netlist in, parts out) only assumes the
responsibility that the part will in fact match the netlist. You
assume the responsibility that your design's timing etc. are correct.
This is why you should get design tools that give you the highest
confidence level. If you are on a tight budget or short schedule, you
probably can't afford to do it twice.

 If you want to do an analog design, you would be well off to get
closer to the vendors. To succeed with an aggressive design you will
need to know the characteristics of the process and devices you have
available. This information is proprietary, the IC makers' stock in
trade. The transistor models and temperature dependence of component
values will be critical to making a design that works as built. You
can lay out a circuit that looks good on the screen and works in 
your PSpice simulations with guessed values but rings like Billy-be-
damned because you had less phase margin than you thought. Once you have
found a vendor who can meet your price and service requirements, you
can probably work the information out of them that you need.