roger@nsc.UUCP (04/10/87)
References: Howdy ---- First off let me introduce myself. I'm the technical marketing manager for the Series 32000 product line. The product line consists of the various components, software and system level products. In other words, if its Series 32000 I'm involved in some way.. In the last 24 hours, two articles were posted on the net that drove me to learning the tricks of posting my own article. If I've made an error in the process, please excuse. Yes, National has previewed the NS32532, and we have done that prior to having functional silicon. We recognize that this is a departure from past practices at NSC. We didn't do this as a result of any prior announcements by Mot or AMD. We did it because we believe that the NS32532 is really a revolutionary device of sufficient importance to deserve special consideration. We have discussed the design of the NS32532 with several companies over the past year BUT all of this was under non-disclosure. We did this as a fine tuning process to ensure that the part was correctly architected. We believe we have achieved our architectural objective. The design is frozen. Now to ease our discussions with a broader customer base, we have gone public. Yes, it is true that all we have today are simulated results. But we have more than just a simulation model. We are in the final stages of a 5 year effort in designing this new addition to the Series 32000 family. We are running extensive test vectors to ensure the integrity of the design prior to generating our first mask set. We are very confident that we will have customer samples in the fourth calendar quarter of 1987. What is so impressive about this project is that we are STILL ON OUR ORIGINAL SCHEDULE. I wish I had more than just simulated results, in a few short months, we will. For my friend Landon at Amdahl, I would like to say that the simulated dhrystones results we published are real. Since he asked several pointed questions, I'll provide results du jour if you wish. Let me give you some details ------ 32332 @ 15 MHZ version 1.0 optimized ............ 3943.5 32332 @ 15 MHZ version 1.1 optimized ............ 3183.0 32332 @ 15 MHZ version 1.1 no global opt......... 2724.0 32532 @ 30 MHZ version 1.0 optimized ............ 19800 32532 @ 30 MHZ version 1.1 optimized ............ 16600 32532 @ 30 MHZ version 1.1 no global opt ........ 14100 Yes we have a new set of compilers in the works that among other things supports global optimizations. I don't care which compilers you use on which version of the benchmark, the 532 is better than 5X improvement over todays 332 and over 11.7X faster than the 32032. OK you say ---- the 532 has a faster clock ------ lets factor that out of the equation. the 32532 is 2.53X the 32332 at the same frequency the 32532 is 3.86 the 32032 at the same frequency Yes we have made significant architectural changes(hardware only) that provides this significant increase. It's not imaginary and Landon, it isn't marketing hype. It's fact. The numbers quoted were measured by the designers( members of the compiler team included) and NOT created by any of us in Marketing. An offer I have for you Landon ------ COME ON DOWN I'll give you a load of documentation and we can arrange a time to show you the simulator in action. One caveate: I only have the low end simulator running on my system and I don't have the latest tools so I can't show you the listed results but I can get close. I CAN show you the improvement delta.
chongo@amdahl.UUCP (04/11/87)
In article <4190@nsc.nsc.com> roger@nsc.nsc.com (Roger Thompson) writes: > We are in the final stages of a 5 year effort in designing this > new addition to the Series 32000 family. We are running > extensive test vectors to ensure the integrity of the design > prior to generating our first mask set. We are very confident > that we will have customer samples in the fourth calendar > quarter of 1987. What is so impressive about this project > is that we are STILL ON OUR ORIGINAL SCHEDULE. I seem to recall that the 32532 (which long ago was known at the 32132 back in the dayes when the 32016 was the 16032...) was to have been in production last year. I am confused about this claim of being on schedule for 5 years. Do you mean that the project was re-scheduled since 1982 and it is has been on the schedule since then? In any event, good luck. I look forward to seeing the 32532 exist. chongo <> /\oo/\ -- [views above shouldn't be viewed as Amdahl views, or as views from Amdahl, or as Amdahl views views, or as views by Mr. Amdahl, or as views from his house]
jgp@moscom.UUCP (04/11/87)
In article <4190@nsc.nsc.com> roger@nsc.nsc.com (Roger Thompson) writes: > 32332 @ 15 MHZ version 1.0 optimized ............ 3943.5 > 32332 @ 15 MHZ version 1.1 optimized ............ 3183.0 > 32332 @ 15 MHZ version 1.1 no global opt......... 2724.0 > > 32532 @ 30 MHZ version 1.0 optimized ............ 19800 > 32532 @ 30 MHZ version 1.1 optimized ............ 16600 > 32532 @ 30 MHZ version 1.1 no global opt ........ 14100 > > Yes we have a new set of compilers in the works that among > other things supports global optimizations. Unfortunately the Dhrystone benchmark does not support global optimizations; it says so right in the instructions. A good global optimizer would reduce dhrystone to a few arithmetic instructions, 2 calls to times() and 1 to write(). As current global optimizers get better they will aproach this ideal by eliminating more and more code that does nothing in the benchmark but accomplishes real work in the code the benchmark is supposed to represent. The above numbers represent a dhrystone rating of about 14000, not the 18000 previously quoted. Of course, the above applies to everyone, I don't mean to single out nsc. If your going to publish a dhrystone number (or any benhmark for that matter) keep the global optimizers away from it. -- Jim Prescott rochester!moscom!jgp
mash@mips.UUCP (04/12/87)
In article <4190@nsc.nsc.com> roger@nsc.nsc.com (Roger Thompson) writes: > First off let me introduce myself. I'm the technical marketing > manager for the Series 32000 product line..... > Yes, it is true that all we have today are simulated results. > But we have more than just a simulation model.... > For my friend Landon at Amdahl, I would like to say that the > simulated dhrystones results we published are real. Since > he asked several pointed questions, I'll provide results > du jour if you wish. > Let me give you some details ------ > 32332 @ 15 MHZ version 1.0 optimized ............ 3943.5 > 32332 @ 15 MHZ version 1.1 optimized ............ 3183.0 > 32332 @ 15 MHZ version 1.1 no global opt......... 2724.0 > > 32532 @ 30 MHZ version 1.0 optimized ............ 19800 > 32532 @ 30 MHZ version 1.1 optimized ............ 16600 > 32532 @ 30 MHZ version 1.1 no global opt ........ 14100 Since these were volunteered to the net, let me suggest a few things that will help credibility and let people assess the reality of these numbers. Simulations can be OK: people who scoff at them automatically are being a little harsh, although past histories of many vendors leads to skepticism. Here are the suggestions: 1) Since 1.0 Dhrystones have been obsolete for over a year, and clearly labeled as such by every issue of Rick R's postings, is there some nonobvious reason why 1.0 numbers are included? 2) This posting fixes a problem with an earlier one in this sequence <417@nsc.nsc.com>, which claimed around 18K simulated Dhrystones: "Just for interest, simulated Dhrystone performance of around 18,000 with on chip physical-address instruction and data caches, and on board demand- paged MMU..." Thank you for giving the correct labeling: from these numbers, it appears that the earlier posting claimed Dhrystone figures that were 1.0 ones, WITHOUT LABELING THEM AS SUCH. If this is not true, please correct this impression. If it is true, I'd suggest that people in this newsgroup especially have learned to be pretty skeptical for exactly this kind of thing. 3) When publishing performance figures of microprocessors, if there is to be ANY semblance of credibility, you MUST specify the memory system hooked to the micro as modeled in the simulations, and give other environmental issues. Here is a starting list: cache size(s) data cache nature: write-thru [maybe with write buffers], or write-back cache line sizes number of cycles penalty for refilling the caches, refill nature main memory DRAM speed used in the model to achieve the above. environment: standalone, or in simulated virtual memory environment, including MMU overhead, if any, and something for OS overhead [like clock ticks that execute code that trashes the caches now and then]. [A bunch of this is very relevant to what real performance one will see on real benchmarks: Dhrystone is amenable to small caches.] 4) Once again, just to introduce some reality, what this means is that the 20MHz parts will, in 4Q87 (more-or-less, for the usual reasons), run at about 2/3 the numbers show above. Hence, we'd hope to see posted to the list some real machine numbers, that following the usual Dhrystone rules, rate a 20MHz, unoptimized 1.1 Dhrystone at around 9400 and an optimized one at around 11000. Hence, given the usual intervals, maybe in mid-88 we'll see real machine numbers in the 14000 - 16000 range, which should be respectable, if not spectacular for that time. -- -john mashey DISCLAIMER: <generic disclaimer, I speak for me only, etc> UUCP: {decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!decwrl!mips!mash, DDD: 408-720-1700, x253 USPS: MIPS Computer Systems, 930 E. Arques, Sunnyvale, CA 94086
amos@instable.UUCP (04/12/87)
In article <6167@amdahl.UUCP> chongo@amdahl.UUCP (Landon Curt Noll) writes: >I seem to recall that the 32532 (which long ago was known at the 32132 >back in the dayes when the 32016 was the 16032...) was to have been in >production last year. The 32132 is a dual-cpu chip at the 32032 level, and has been in production for years. As far as I know it has no connection to the 32532. I wasn't here during the Great Renumbering, but the next generation cpu after the 32032 is the 32332, (whatever it was meant to be called B.G.R.), and it *was* in production last year. (Apologies to anyone who have seen my previous erronous posting about this, it should have been canceled by now). -- Amos Shapir National Semiconductor (Israel) 6 Maskit st. P.O.B. 3007, Herzlia 46104, Israel Tel. (972)52-522261 amos%nsta@nsc.com {hplabs,pyramid,sun,decwrl} 34.48'E 32.10'N
chongo@amdahl.UUCP (04/13/87)
In reply to: Message-ID: <4193@nsc.nsc.com> by Roger: >The demo showed the visual affects of what 3x ment. Yes you are correct, >at that same meeting, both set-ups were running at the same clock frequency. The demo did not state this this was a simulation, but rather mislead people into thinking that the 32332 was going to 3x of a 32032. Why do you think some people bitched and moaned when the 32332 was showing a performance increase of less than half that amount? >Yes you are correct, at that same meeting, both set-ups were running at >the same clock frequency. Since the demo was I/O bounded anyway, it would >hardly have mattered if the 32332 were actually 10X faster. True. The 3x performance gain was obtained by slowing down the 32032. The was done was by having the 32032 perform extra work (such as non-optimal I/O). Had been a big sign on the demo saying: "simulated performance", maybe things would have been less misleading. This kind of benchmark (showing raw CPU increase) is somewhat comic when you remember that the selling pitch of "32000 vs 68000" was based on total system performance, discounting MOTs raw-cpu performance. But that seems to all be "water under the melons" now, if you know what I mean. What am I looking/hoping for? Well: * What kind of system thur-put increase will I see in a 32532 vs 32x32? Saying 'going from junk C compilers to normal C compilers', jumping to 15Mhz and a 332 gives you 3x is not the most optimal way to gain performance. For example, if you improve the C compiler on a 32332, then you do the same on a 32032. (your code compat, remember?) The compiler improvement should be factored out. Or, if I have XYZns rams in my system, increasing the clock rate may likely lead to more wait states than more performance. * How soon after the 'on-time project' delivers a working 32532 in samples might I see 19800 Dhrystone systems? * How has NSC changed the way the 532 is being developed/built in order to prevent a repeat of the past problems? Like the 16032G to 32016N problems, lack of NSC 32032 demo system, confusing statements about the 32332 performance, ... * If I go ahead and design a system based on the NS32532, won't I be faced with the problem of building with a chip line that is not as commonly used? That may be an unfair/misleading question. But my point is that customers are going to be seeing x86 ot 680x0 systems up the WAZooo. They might wonder about someone going with a non-common brand... Lets try to direct this discussion away from finger point and more toward what will be, and how it has been improved. Also, I hope the NSC folks have not been offended at my asking pointed questions. Best wishes toward building 19800 Dhrystone systems! chongo <uh-clem?> /\mp/\ -- [views above shouldn't be viewed as Amdahl views, or as views from Amdahl, or as Amdahl views views, or as views by Mr. Amdahl, or as views from his house]
roger@nsc.UUCP (04/13/87)
> The demo did not state this this was a simulation, but rather mislead people > into thinking that the 32332 was going to 3x of a 32032. Why do you think > some people bitched and moaned when the 32332 was showing a performance > increase of less than half that amount? > May I point out that this demo was used BUT ONCE at the stock holders meeting. Not a single observer bitched. Many asked questions and were told exactly what it was doing. Several others as expected just didn't care. This is quite often the case with financial analyists. If my memory serves me right, you were the only one who moaned. Since you were not in attendance at the meeting, I'm not sure how you can say "some". Let me interpret this as "1". We have many satisfied 32332 customers today all of whom would be pleased to describe the performance increase they got. > > This kind of benchmark (showing raw CPU increase) is somewhat comic when you > remember that the selling pitch of "32000 vs 68000" was based on total system > performance, discounting MOTs raw-cpu performance. But that seems to all > be "water under the melons" now, if you know what I mean. What you are getting to here is what you could call "useable performance". I don't think that even you would disagree that it has always been easier to design a memory sub-system for any 32000 cpu versus the equivalent 68000 cpu. The 32000 has always allowed the designer more margin and the ability to use slower and CHEAPER memories. How much performance loss per wait state do you get on the 68020? or did you pay mega bucks for the fast RAMs. > What am I looking/hoping for? Well: > > * What kind of system thur-put increase will I see in a 32532 vs 32x32? > Lets try "external bus bandwidth" ......... 532 @30 = 96 Mbytes/sec ......... 032 @10 = 8 Mbytes/sec using the same code as a test case. This is as we said befor an improvement of 12X. If that doesn't count and you say that the CPU can't sustain that, let me just say that the internal hardware has a sustained thruput of 240 Mbytes. Yes, the number is correct. > 32332, then you do the same on a 32032. (your code compat, remember?) > The compiler improvement should be factored out. Or, if I have XYZns > rams in my system, increasing the clock rate may likely lead to more > wait states than more performance. This is a two part answer, all the performance increase factors I've posted (ie: 11.7x or 12x above ) don't INCLUDE improvements in compilers. As it relates to RAM speed, I'll agree that using slow rams may cause a problem when you integrate in new CPUs. These are trade-offs designers of systems have to make. Where does it say that ALL SYSTEMS must be designed with XYZns rams. Befor I leave this subject, to operate at 0 wait states at 30 MHZ, the address to ready time is 49 nsec. Not bad. How much will you get for a 20 MHZ 030 when it comes out. Whats more, if you have wait states (which in many cases is likely), you will see about 3% performance degradation per wait state, also not bad if you compare that to what happens today on the 020 and other processors. > * How soon after the 'on-time project' delivers a working 32532 in samples > might I see 19800 Dhrystone systems? 30 MHZ parts are due out the first half of CY88. > * How has NSC changed the way the 532 is being developed/built in order to > prevent a repeat of the past problems? The original NS16032 (using the old numbers) was designed virtually by hand. There were very few simulation tools available at the time. As was done on the 32332 and the 32382 (both of which are in full production), the design of the 32532 was done with very sophisticated software tools. We have a complete vme based demo system in design today and it is scheduled out simultaneously with the silicon. We will not sample the 532 until it works on our own hardware.
roger@nsc.UUCP (04/13/87)
In article <951@moscom.UUCP>, jgp@moscom.UUCP (Jim Prescott) writes: > Unfortunately the Dhrystone benchmark does not support global > optimizations; it says so right in the instructions. A good > global optimizer would reduce dhrystone to a few arithmetic > instructions, 2 calls to times() and 1 to write(). As current > global optimizers get better they will aproach this ideal by > eliminating more and more code that does nothing in the benchmark > but accomplishes real work in the code the benchmark is supposed > to represent. > We provided a range of numbers, in an effort to allow people to make up their own minds. Yes, it is true that the dhrystone benchmark as well as others used today can be defeated by good compilers. BUT in the end application, which would you prefer to use. Roger Thompson
roger@nsc.nsc.com (Roger Thompson) (04/13/87)
In article <278@winchester.mips.UUCP>, mash@mips.UUCP (John Mashey) writes: > 3) When publishing performance figures of microprocessors, if there is > to be ANY semblance of credibility, you MUST specify the memory system > hooked to the micro as modeled in the simulations, and give other environmental > issues. Here is a starting list: > cache size(s) > data cache nature: write-thru [maybe with write buffers], > or write-back > cache line sizes > number of cycles penalty for refilling the caches, refill nature > main memory DRAM speed used in the model to achieve the above. > environment: standalone, or in simulated virtual memory environment, > including MMU overhead, if any, and something for OS overhead > [like clock ticks that execute code that trashes the caches > now and then]. > [A bunch of this is very relevant to what real performance one will see > the list some real machine numbers, that following the usual Dhrystone I may get corrected on this shortly. I believe that the simulations were done with the assumptions that external memory was all 0 wait state. However, in support of this let me say that we have a parallel design effort on a vme board pair that supports a 64K direct mapped cache, write through with a write buffer. The cache is organized as 4096 lines of 16 bytes. The board also has 4 Meg of on-board ram. In this configuration, our simulations show that the board with the 532 will be able to sustain a performance of approximately 95% of the full rated performance of the 532. Not bad, and one doesn't need to pay mega bucks for the RAM. Roger Thompson
clif@intelca.UUCP (04/13/87)
> In article <4190@nsc.nsc.com> roger@nsc.nsc.com (Roger Thompson) writes: > > 32332 @ 15 MHZ version 1.0 optimized ............ 3943.5 > > 32332 @ 15 MHZ version 1.1 optimized ............ 3183.0 > > 32332 @ 15 MHZ version 1.1 no global opt......... 2724.0 > > > > 32532 @ 30 MHZ version 1.0 optimized ............ 19800 > > 32532 @ 30 MHZ version 1.1 optimized ............ 16600 > > 32532 @ 30 MHZ version 1.1 no global opt ........ 14100 > > > > Yes we have a new set of compilers in the works that among > > other things supports global optimizations. > Unfortunately the Dhrystone benchmark does not support global > optimizations; it says so right in the instructions. A good > global optimizer would reduce dhrystone to a few arithmetic > instructions, 2 calls to times() and 1 to write(). As current > global optimizers get better they will aproach this ideal by > eliminating more and more code that does nothing in the benchmark > but accomplishes real work in the code the benchmark is supposed > to represent. > > The above numbers represent a dhrystone rating of about 14000, not > the 18000 previously quoted. > > Of course, the above applies to everyone, I don't mean to single > out nsc. If your going to publish a dhrystone number (or any > benhmark for that matter) keep the global optimizers away from it. > -- > Jim Prescott rochester!moscom!jgp While, I agree that using a global optimizing compiler is not exactly kosher for the dhrystone benchmark it sometimes neccessary. For instance: the GreenHills C compiler is a globally optimizing compiler which generates good Dhrystone numbers for many architectures including the 80386 and 68020. Unfortunately, I can not find a compiler switch to turn off the global optimizer. This leaves me with two choices: post the numbers with the cavet that this a global optimizing compiler or use the results of a medicore compiler like CC. I don't really think that global optimization is a problem as long as it is clearly labeled. -- Clif Purkiser, Intel, Santa Clara, Ca. {pur-ee,hplabs,amd,scgvaxd,dual,idi,omsvax}!intelca!clif These views are my own property. However anyone who wants them can have them for a nominal fee.
chongo@amdahl.UUCP (04/14/87)
In article <4196@nsc.nsc.com> roger@nsc.nsc.com (Roger Thompson) writes: >May I point out that this demo was used BUT ONCE at the stock holders >meeting. Not a single observer bitched. Many asked questions and were >told exactly what it was doing. Several others as expected just didn't >care. This is quite often the case with financial analyists. This demo system may the tour rounds. My Microterm terminal I used at work had its delivery to my desk delayed for several weeks because it was the terminal used with the 32332. The demo ran so long and was run so much that the tower of Hanoi was burned into the phosphor of the screen. This rigged demo was not used more than once. >If my memory serves me right, you were the only one who moaned. Since you >were not in attendance at the meeting, I'm not sure how you can say "some". I am a stockholder. (I even cast my vote for Mike Puckett as I recall :-}) >Let me interpret this as "1". We have many satisfied 32332 customers >today all of whom would be pleased to describe the performance increase >they got. How many systems use the 32332? Where can I evaluate (other than a VR32 for reasons that I will go into via Email if you care to ask) such a system? (assuming it is in the price/performance range I am looking for) >The 32000 has always allowed the designer more margin and the >ability to use slower and CHEAPER memories. How much performance loss >per wait state do you get on the 68020? or did you pay mega bucks for the >fast RAMs. Why does the 68020 outsell the 32032, I wonder? Maybe designers of 68020 don't know something? Your in marketing, perhaps you understand such issues, please explain! >> What am I looking/hoping for? Well: Thanx for your answers. chongo <> /\oo/\ -- [views above shouldn't be viewed as Amdahl views, or as views from Amdahl, or as Amdahl views views, or as views by Mr. Amdahl, or as views from his house]
roger@nsc.UUCP (04/14/87)
In article <6237@amdahl.UUCP>, chongo@amdahl.UUCP (Landon Curt Noll) writes: > This demo system may the tour rounds. My Microterm terminal I used at work > had its delivery to my desk delayed for several weeks because it was the > terminal used with the 32332. The demo ran so long and was run so much that > the tower of Hanoi was burned into the phosphor of the screen. This rigged > demo was not used more than once. I humbly stand corrected. You are correct with one respect. The demo was used twice---- so sorry. The second usage was for exactly the same purpose at a meeting to introduce the 32332 in Europe. It went without your terminal so I can't account for that. How do I know that? Well you see your terminal at the time was not convertable to 220 volts. Yes your terminal was used alot in checking out the set-up. > > I am a stockholder. (I even cast my vote for Mike Puckett as I recall :-}) > Yes, age is creeping up on me, I did make one error, so I may be wrong again, but as best as I can remember there weren't any adjustments to the vote tally at the meeting which means you must have mailed in your proxy. In any case, casting a vote for some else is slightly ---- should I say ------ well hard to do unless that other person has signed over his stock to you for voting purposes. If that is the case ---- fine. > How many systems use the 32332? Where can I evaluate (other than a VR32 > for reasons that I will go into via Email if you care to ask) such a system? > (assuming it is in the price/performance range I am looking for) The following people have systems in a demonstrable fashion. All are just going into production. Design on these projects all started last summer not due to any CPU related issues but because that was when we had our FIRST (and only ) rev of the new 32382 MMU Encore, Opus, Seimens, Definicon,Whitechappel and our own ISG(ie: Portland I selected the above since they all run some derivitive of *nix all quite nice. Oh by the way, Seimens shipped more series32000 Unix boxes over the last 9 months than your favorite workstation supplier, so did Opus. Encore is makeing good inroads in providing more computes than your basic VAX at a very very attractive price. Both Encore and ISG were at Uniforum as best as I can remember. Why do so many people like the 68020????? Certainly not because of their MMU. Enough on that, it's too bad you have choosen to discuss only the past with little interest to the 32532 which is what brought up the above issues. ---- Roger
gemini@homxb.UUCP (Rick Richardson) (04/14/87)
In article <2577@intelca.UUCP>, clif@intelca.UUCP (Clif Purkiser) writes: > While, I agree that using a global optimizing compiler is not exactly > kosher for the dhrystone benchmark it sometimes neccessary. For > instance: the GreenHills C compiler is a globally optimizing compiler > which generates good Dhrystone numbers for many architectures including > the 80386 and 68020. Unfortunately, I can not find a compiler > switch to turn off the global optimizer. Is this true? I have many results using the GreenHills compiler which are not marked as having a global optimizer turned on. Are you sure there's no switch to turn it off? I've been watching these benchmark wars for awhile now, and frankly, I'm a little upset that I put myself in the middle as referee. With all these new chips and super hot compilers, I've lost confidence in the validity of many of the results that have been sent to me. I used to get results from Joe Engineer; now I'm getting them from Montague F. Salesman. And with the way the optimizing technology is taking off, I expect to see a Commodore 64 reporting 50,000 dhrystones by years end :-). Here's the plea: turn off the optimizer and send the results marked no opt, turn on the optimizer and send the results w/<LEVEL> opt, where <LEVEL> indicates peephole, global, read-programmers-mind, or whatever. If it can't be turned off, say so. Meanwhile, any advice on modifying the Dhrystone for version 1.2 such that a global optimizer won't be able to remove anything will be appreciated. And remember, folks, that a test of compiler A/machine A versus compiler A/machine B is valid. Compiler A/machine A versus compiler B/machine A is also valid. Compiler A/machine A versus compiler B/machine B is probably invalid if seeking the truth about machine A/B's relative power, but may be valid if your goal is to put 147 users on the machine whose only use is to run the benchmark. Rick Richardson, PC Research, Inc: (201) 922-1134 ..!ihnp4!castor!pcrat!rick when at AT&T-CPL: (201) 834-1378 ..!ihnp4!castor!polux!rer [I know those compiler writers...they LOVE to change things]
mcvoy@rsch.WISC.EDU (Larry McVoy) (04/14/87)
(Roger Thompson) writes: > all quite nice. Oh by the way, Seimens shipped more series32000 > Unix boxes over the last 9 months than your favorite workstation > supplier, so did Opus. How many, how much $$, running what version of Unix, with what sort of peripherals? --larry P.S. Roger - I sent you mail requesting the widely touted documentation. Did you lose that mail? Or are you all talk and no action? -- Larry McVoy mcvoy@rsch.wisc.edu or uwvax!mcvoy "It's a joke, son! I say, I say, a Joke!!" --Foghorn Leghorn
terryl@tekcrl.UUCP (04/15/87)
In article <219@homxb.UUCP> gemini@homxb.UUCP (Rick Richardson) writes: +In article <2577@intelca.UUCP>, clif@intelca.UUCP (Clif Purkiser) writes: +> While, I agree that using a global optimizing compiler is not exactly +> kosher for the dhrystone benchmark it sometimes neccessary. For +> instance: the GreenHills C compiler is a globally optimizing compiler +> which generates good Dhrystone numbers for many architectures including +> the 80386 and 68020. Unfortunately, I can not find a compiler +> switch to turn off the global optimizer. + +Is this true? I have many results using the GreenHills compiler which +are not marked as having a global optimizer turned on. Are you sure +there's no switch to turn it off? Well, yes and no. Since Greenhills supports symbolic debugging (at least for a 68020 system), with the "-g" option, Mr. Richardson is right. BUT, baring that, the only option I could find to "turn off" optimization is the -X9 option, which is to disable the local(peephole) optimizer. So Mr. Purkiser is right. Actually, there are a couple of more options to disable optimization, like not moving frequently used procedure and data addresses into registers, but I doubt that would cause much of a discrepancy.
tim@amdcad.UUCP (04/15/87)
In article <219@homxb.UUCP> gemini@homxb.UUCP (Rick Richardson) writes: > ... Meanwhile, any advice on modifying >the Dhrystone for version 1.2 such that a global optimizer won't be >able to remove anything will be appreciated. One easy fix to Dhrystone is to package it as two (or more) separate c files which must be compiled separately, then linked together. This will prevent global optimizers from looking at the entire program at one whack, and is much more realistic (i.e. most real-life programs are made up of many files.) One question would be how to partition the procedures and data declarations over multiple files realistically. I myself tend to use an "object oriented" approach, where data declarations and the procedures to operate on said data exist in their own file, and the data declarations tend to be "static" -- only visible to the procedures within that file. -- Tim Olson Advanced Micro Devices (tim@amdcad.AMD.COM)
clif@intelca.UUCP (04/15/87)
> In article <2577@intelca.UUCP>, clif@intelca.UUCP (Clif Purkiser) writes: > > While, I agree that using a global optimizing compiler is not exactly > > kosher for the dhrystone benchmark it sometimes neccessary. For > > instance: the GreenHills C compiler is a globally optimizing compiler > > which generates good Dhrystone numbers for many architectures including > > the 80386 and 68020. Unfortunately, I can not find a compiler > > switch to turn off the global optimizer. > > Is this true? I have many results using the GreenHills compiler which > are not marked as having a global optimizer turned on. Are you sure > there's no switch to turn it off? > > I've been watching these benchmark wars for awhile now, and frankly, I'm > a little upset that I put myself in the middle as referee. With all these > new chips and super hot compilers, I've lost confidence in the validity > of many of the results that have been sent to me. I used to get > results from Joe Engineer; now I'm getting them from Montague F. Salesman. > And with the way the optimizing technology is taking off, I expect to > see a Commodore 64 reporting 50,000 dhrystones by years end :-). > > Here's the plea: turn off the optimizer and send the results marked > no opt, turn on the optimizer and send the results w/<LEVEL> opt, where > <LEVEL> indicates peephole, global, read-programmers-mind, or whatever. > If it can't be turned off, say so. Meanwhile, any advice on modifying > the Dhrystone for version 1.2 such that a global optimizer won't be > able to remove anything will be appreciated. > > And remember, folks, that a test of compiler A/machine A versus > compiler A/machine B is valid. Compiler A/machine A versus > compiler B/machine A is also valid. Compiler A/machine A versus > compiler B/machine B is probably invalid if seeking the truth > about machine A/B's relative power, but may be valid if your > goal is to put 147 users on the machine whose only use is to > run the benchmark. > > > Rick Richardson, PC Research, Inc: (201) 922-1134 ..!ihnp4!castor!pcrat!rick > when at AT&T-CPL: (201) 834-1378 ..!ihnp4!castor!polux!rer > > [I know those compiler writers...they LOVE to change things] On the GreenHills compiler there is little difference between -O -O2 , reg and noreg options. I believe that Green Hills C 386 compiler uses the same basic switches for all architectures, so I suspect that ALL results using GHS are global optimizing. I am looking forward to being told that I am incorrect about GHS . Rick, I understand that you are not thrilled about refereeing benchmark.war but look at the good side: The dhrystone benchmarks is better (i.e larger and closer to modeling an application) than most other benchmarks. It is standardized (not like the EDN benchmarks ) It seems to be accepted by most of the uP vendors AMD, Fairchild, Intel , Motorola and National and there exists a very large number of results which seem to be ordered properly (i.e CRAYs are faster than Commodore 64s) I think that work we have down on USnet has been helpful in providing information to engineers trying to understand the performance claims of computer vendors. The only true benchmark is your application, but the Dhrystone serves as an important data point. -- Clif Purkiser, Intel, Santa Clara, Ca. {pur-ee,hplabs,amd,scgvaxd,dual,idi,omsvax}!intelca!clif These views are my own property. However anyone who wants them can have them for a nominal fee.
ram@nucsrl.UUCP (04/17/87)
While we are at this "chip war", could somebody post a comparison
of all these goody chip's prices. Say X386, 68XX0, 29XXX, NS32X32 ....
I am just curious to know that. Lets see who wins on that issue.
-------------------
Renu Raman UUCP:...ihnp4!nucsrl!ram
1410 Chicago Ave., #505 ARPA:ram@eecs.nwu.edu (Soon. Not Yet)
Evanston IL 60201 AT&T:(312)-869-4276 gnu@hoptoad.UUCP (04/17/87)
I must say that Roger Thompson's statement "We provided a range of
numbers, in an effort to allow people to make up their own minds." is a
marvel even in the bizarre world of chip marketing.
Sure -- they mention 19000 dhrystones, and 14000 dhrystones, and a
number in the middle -- people can make up their own mind. It's just
that the 19000 number was obtained by running the invalid version 1.0
benchmark by violating its instructions about turning off
optimization -- in order that all the systems be compared under the
same conditions. But you can make up your own mind.
I say keep at 'em Landon -- finally you are in a position where they
can't gag you when you point out their, uh, inappropriate marketing
practices. (In case the audience doesn't know, Landon used to work
for National and got into trouble with their management for telling
good customers the truth about the parts when it conflicted with the story
NSC management wanted people to believe.)
May the best chip succeed, despite its marketing people!
--
Copyright 1987 John Gilmore; you can redistribute only if your recipients can.
(This is an effort to bend Stargate to work with Usenet, not against it.)
{sun,ptsfa,lll-crg,ihnp4,ucbvax}!hoptoad!gnu gnu@ingres.berkeley.eduroger@nsc.nsc.com (Roger Thompson) (04/17/87)
In article <3456@rsch.WISC.EDU>, mcvoy@rsch.WISC.EDU (Larry McVoy) writes: > > P.S. Roger - I sent you mail requesting the widely touted documentation. > Did you lose that mail? Or are you all talk and no action? > -- > Larry McVoy mcvoy@rsch.wisc.edu or uwvax!mcvoy Larry --- I sent you mail asking for your address but I as yet haven't gotten a reply. Mail has it hostage possibly. If you still want a lit package post your address and I'll send it. Sorry for the delay Roger
phil@osiris.UUCP (Philip Kos) (04/20/87)
In article <3810028@nucsrl.UUCP>, ram@nucsrl.UUCP (Renu Raman) writes: > While we are at this "chip war", could somebody post a comparison > of all these goody chip's prices. Say X386, 68XX0, 29XXX, NS32X32 .... > I am just curious to know that. Lets see who wins on that issue. Oh, dear. I feel a swarm of apples and oranges coming on... I would not mind seeing the requested info AS LONG AS IT IS MADE CLEAR THAT THE PRICES ARE NOT DIRECTLY COMPARABLE. This could get worse than dhrystones Real Fast. Actually, I *would* like to see price _trends_ for any (preferably all) of the mentioned processors. (Especially for the 29xxx! :-) BTW Renu, you left out the BellMac (32x00? too close to 32x32, if you ask me)... -- ...!decvax!decuac - Phil Kos \ The Johns Hopkins Hospital ...!seismo!mimsy - -> !aplcen!osiris!phil Baltimore, MD / ...!allegra!mimsy - "We're going to Greece!" "And swim the English Channel?" "No, to ancient Greece, where burning Sappho loved and sang and stroked the wine-dark sea in the temple by the moonlight wah-da- do-dah." "What?" - F. Theater
davidsen@steinmetz.UUCP (04/21/87)
In article <3810028@nucsrl.UUCP> ram@nucsrl.UUCP (Renu Raman) writes: > While we are at this "chip war", could somebody post a comparison > of all these goody chip's prices. Say X386, 68XX0, 29XXX, NS32X32 .... > I am just curious to know that. Lets see who wins on that issue. I like the idea, but I don't believe you carried it far enough. We need to compare (a) is the chip available at ANY price, (b) is it available in a SYSTEM at any price, (c) what is the cheapest system currently available using the chip? I don't want to design my own system and have a one of a kind. I want to select from the best available systems the one which best fits my needs. -- bill davidsen sixhub \ ihnp4!seismo!rochester!steinmetz -> crdos1!davidsen chinet / ARPA: davidsen%crdos1.uucp@ge-crd.ARPA (or davidsen@ge-crd.ARPA)
tim@amdcad.AMD.COM (Tim Olson) (04/21/87)
In article <1065@osiris.UUCP> phil@osiris.UUCP (Philip Kos) writes: > >Actually, I *would* like to see price _trends_ for any (preferably all) >of the mentioned processors. (Especially for the 29xxx! :-) > I'm not in marketing or sales, but, as far as the Am29000 goes, it appears to be (semi)public knowledge: From the back cover of the latest "Insights" -- the in-house AMD publication: "...Initial pricing is expected to be under $500 per device for prototype quantity orders. Production pricing should be around $100 per unit by 1990." -- Tim Olson Advanced Micro Devices Processor Strategic Development <- (that's the latest name ;-) (tim@amdcad.AMD.COM)
chuck@amdahl.UUCP (Charles Simmons) (04/21/87)
In article <1065@osiris.UUCP> phil@osiris.UUCP (Philip Kos) writes: >In article <3810028@nucsrl.UUCP>, ram@nucsrl.UUCP (Renu Raman) writes: >> While we are at this "chip war", could somebody post a comparison >> of all these goody chip's prices. Say X386, 68XX0, 29XXX, NS32X32 .... >> I am just curious to know that. Lets see who wins on that issue. >BTW Renu, you left out the BellMac (32x00? too close to 32x32, if you >ask me)... In that case, let's not forget the Clipper, the V60, the Transputer, whatever MIPS makes, whatever TI makes, whatever Zylog makes, and I think there's one more that I'm forgetting. -- chuck
johng@orstcs.UUCP (04/25/87)
> In that case, let's not forget the Clipper, the V60, the Transputer, > whatever MIPS makes, whatever TI makes, whatever Zylog makes, and I think > there's one more that I'm forgetting. How about the Novix Forth Engine? John Gregor {tektronix, hp-pcd}!orstcs!johng