jlo@elan.UUCP (Jeff Lo) (10/13/88)
Well, I just got back from the NeXT introduction at Davies Symphony Hall
in San Francisco and thought I would update the net on what Steve Jobs
announced about the NeXT computer.
The machine is based on the Motorola 68030 with a 68882 floating point
chip as well as a 56001 DSP chip, all running at 25 MHz. It will support
up to 16 MB of RAM with 1 Mbit chips, maybe 64 MB with 4 Mbit chips (they
haven't tried this yet). Mass storage is on a 256 MB removable erasable
optical disk! Jobs said that the removable media goes for ~$50. The display
is a gray-scale mega-pixel display (no exact sizes given). There was no
mention of color. Everything is displayed with Display PostScript, developed
jointly by NeXT and Adobe. This apparently runs with a proprietary window
system. There was no mention of X Windows. Also standard are audio input
and output, ethernet, and SCSI. Jobs said that with the standard sound
capabilities, all that is needed for a 9600 bps modem is some software
and a phone connection.
The entire CPU board consists of 45 chips as compared to 100+ for a fast
PC and 300+ for a typical workstation. Everything has been crammed onto
a 12 inch square board through the use of very dense surface mounted
devices, and a few large custom CMOS chips. Two of these chips implement
what Jobs called a "mainframe on two chips". These basically provide fast
I/O processors for all I/O systems including the optical disk, SCSI,
ethernet, sound processors (I assume the DSP and A/D-D/A converters) and
the NuBus. The NuBus is run at 25 MHz (Jobs compared it to a 10 MHz NuBus,
is this what the Mac II uses?). The SCSI interface was reported to have
a 4 MB/sec. transfer rate. There are 12 I/O processors total.
The CPU box has 4 slots, 1 is used by the CPU board, the others were empty.
The box itself is a black cube a foot on a side. The display, keyboard and
two-button mouse are also black. The display has an integral adjustable
height and tilt stand. The display is connected to the CPU box with a single
3 meter cable which transmits the 100 MHz video, power, sound, keyboard
and mouse data. The back of the display has connectors for the keyboard and
mouse, along with a speaker, microphone and headphone jacks and gold-plated
RCA stereo jacks.
The sound capabilities of the system were impressive, being able to record
and playback high-quality sound. Using the DSP chip some very realistic
sounding music was generated on the fly in real-time.
The box, display, and everything else looked very modern and high-tech -
all black.
The operating system is based on MACH with NFS support. On top of this is
Display PostScript. Above this is what NeXT is calling NextStep. This
consists of their window server, interface builder, application builder
and workspace. This is what was licensed by IBM. On top of this are the
applications.
When you login, you get a browser several icons, and a menu on the screen.
The browser lets you move quickly from directory to directory, and to run
applications or open icon based directory windows. The root menu is always
on the screen, always on top, and may be positioned anywhere on the screen
(and even off the screen). The menus cascade, and the submenus may be torn
off and left on the screen. Along the right edge is what I think Jobs called
the icon dock. It is a set of icons for commonly used applications which are
kept on the left edge, and are always on top. If you need the screen space,
this column of icons may be slid down off the screen, leaving only the NeXT
icon showing. Icons may be freely moved in and out of the dock so you can
keep what icons you use a lot there.
Jobs said that the new environment should cut the time used in coding the
user interface of a program from 90% to 10% of the total coding time. With
the application builder Jobs said it would go to zero. The environment is
object oriented, I believe based on Objective-C. You can modify existing
stuff with subclassing and inherit much of the base application. The
application builder lets you build an application just by placing buttons,
sliders, and any other graphic objects into a window, and then attaching
the the input and output objects to object messages.
Software that comes bundled with the system include MACH, Display
PostScript, NextStep, the sound and music tools, the digital library,
WriteNow, Mail, Mathematica, Sybase and Franz Lisp.
The digital library consists of Webster's 9th Collegiate Dictionary,
Webster's Collegiate Thesaurus, the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations
and the Complete Works of William Shakespeare on-line. There is a built
in spell program and dictionary/thesaurus lookup application. A word can
be selected in any window and looked up. The dictionary even includes
the pictures.
WriteNow is a word processing system, Mail is arpanet compatible mail,
including the capability to send speech, Mathematica is for (obviously)
mathematical problems and such. Sybase is a sequel database server.
A PostScript laser printer was also announced the can run at either
400 dpi or in 300 dpi "draft" mode. The printer is markedly smaller
(shorter) that most laser printers. No mention was given of speed.
Several demos were run with rotating molecules, smooth scrolling text,
voice storage and playback, speech waveforms and FFTs, etc. Everything
ran well, and ran fast.
Jobs announced the following prices (apparently education prices):
NeXT computer: $6500
NeXT PostScript Printer: $2000
330 MB winchester disk: $2000
660 MB winchester disk: $4000
Jobs said that machines will start shipping in early November '88,
the 0.8 pre-release of the software for developers will be available
in Q4 '88, the 0.9 pre-release for developers and aggressive users in
Q1 '89, with the 1.0 release for general consumption in Q2 '89.
All in all, the machine looked good and fast, although I wonder about
the fact that several desirable things were not mentioned, i.e., color
monitors, X-Windows, some kind of floppy drive for software distribution,
etc. I imagine a typical SCSI tape drive could be used for archival
storage.
I'm sure I must have left something out, but I'm sure someone will fill
in the gaps and correct any mistakes I made (sometimes it was hard to
hear from the nosebleed seats in the back row of the top balcony).
--
Standard Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with NeXT except being a possible
software developer that got invited to the announcement.
--
Jeff Lo
..!{ames,hplabs,uunet}!elan!jlo
Elan Computer Group, Inc.
(415) 322-2450ken@gatech.edu (Ken Seefried III) (10/13/88)
I really hate to contribute to the flood of articles that are going to be dumped on the net about NeXT...but hell, I just gotta know some things...;'} In article <360@elan.UUCP> jlo@elan.UUCP (Jeff Lo) writes: > >The machine is based on the Motorola 68030 with a 68882 floating point >chip as well as a 56001 DSP chip, all running at 25 MHz. It will support ^^^^^ Will they be including any development tools for the DSP, like the Motorola assembler or (better) C compiler? >up to 16 MB of RAM with 1 Mbit chips, maybe 64 MB with 4 Mbit chips (they >haven't tried this yet). Mass storage is on a 256 MB removable erasable >optical disk! Jobs said that the removable media goes for ~$50. The display ^^^^^^^^^^^^ I spent a little time doing work with optical disk technology, and it was far, far to slow to be primary main storage. What magic has NeXT worked to make it suitable? >is a gray-scale mega-pixel display (no exact sizes given). There was no >mention of color. Everything is displayed with Display PostScript, developed ^^^^^ My understanding (read: the rumour I heard) is that Pixar is developing the colour board and it isn't done yet. >jointly by NeXT and Adobe. This apparently runs with a proprietary window >system. There was no mention of X Windows. Also standard are audio input ^^^^^^^^^ If it is Mach, its 4.3 compatable and X can be ported. Or NeWS (goes with NeXT). >and output, ethernet, and SCSI. Jobs said that with the standard sound >capabilities, all that is needed for a 9600 bps modem is some software >and a phone connection. Well...when does the V.32 software get here? Or the Telebit PEP emulator? [stuff deleted] >the NuBus. The NuBus is run at 25 MHz (Jobs compared it to a 10 MHz NuBus, >is this what the Mac II uses?). Several questions...I thought that NuBus was standardised to run at 10MHz, synchronous. Is 'NuBus' running at 25MHz still NuBus? Will not most availible NuBus cards choke? Also, what form factor are the cards: the original (MIT/TI) Eurocard or the Apple form factor? Are they interchangeable (ie can you run an Apple NuBus card in a MIT/TI NuBus size card cage? Will we see a NeXT version of the TI MicroExplorer or Symbolics MacIvory Lisp CoProcessors? >The operating system is based on MACH with NFS support. On top of this is >Display PostScript. The big question of the day: how stable is Mach? Until relatively recently, Mach was a reseach OS. Has NeXT had time to get all the kinks out? Same question for Display PostScript. Also, considering how much of a resource hog Printer PostScript is, how quick is it? [tons deleted] >object oriented, I believe based on Objective-C. You can modify existing ^^^^^^^^^^^ Thats what I heard. Double Bonus Points for Jobs... >and the Complete Works of William Shakespeare on-line. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Interesting, but welcome... I wonder if Jobs is trying to increse our literacy... >Jobs announced the following prices (apparently education prices): > > NeXT computer: $6500 > NeXT PostScript Printer: $2000 > 330 MB winchester disk: $2000 > 660 MB winchester disk: $4000 Who do I give my cheque to...? (notice, no smiley face) >Jobs said that machines will start shipping in early November '88, >the 0.8 pre-release of the software for developers will be available >in Q4 '88, the 0.9 pre-release for developers and aggressive users in >Q1 '89, with the 1.0 release for general consumption in Q2 '89. What does this mean? If I buy one now, do I have to wait until Q2 '89 for an operating system? Or are the machines only shipping to developers in November? > , some kind of floppy drive for software distribution, >etc. I imagine a typical SCSI tape drive could be used for archival >storage. umm...Why? The optical is removable, no? non-volitile? indestructable? 256MB? Seems like a pretty good backup/distribution media to me... >-- >Jeff Lo >..!{ames,hplabs,uunet}!elan!jlo >Elan Computer Group, Inc. >(415) 322-2450 Well, I guess he really did do it... ken seefried iii ...!{akgua, allegra, amd, harpo, hplabs, ken@gatech.edu inhp4, masscomp, rlgvax, sb1, uf-cgrl, ccastks@gitvm1.bitnet unmvax, ut-ngp, ut-sally}!gatech!ken
ralphw@ius3.ius.cs.cmu.edu (Ralph Hyre) (10/13/88)
[followups directed to comp.sys.misc] In article <360@elan.UUCP> jlo@elan.UUCP (Jeff Lo) writes: [NeWS news. Thanks!] >The machine is based on the Motorola 68030 with a 68882 floating point >chip as well as a 56001 DSP chip, all running at 25 MHz. All on the CPU board? >The entire CPU board consists of 45 chips ... >ethernet, sound processors (I assume the DSP and A/D-D/A converters) and.. >the NuBus. The NuBus is run at 25 MHz (Jobs compared it to a 10 MHz NuBus, >The CPU box has 4 slots, 1 is used by the CPU board, the others were empty... >There are 12 I/O processors total. Does this mean that all of the circuitry is on NuBUS cards, or did they put some stuff on the motherboard, leaving the CPU and DSP on the backplane? What is really on the CPU board (030, 882, and 1M memory?) How much memory is in the base configuration? -- - Ralph W. Hyre, Jr. Internet: ralphw@ius3.cs.cmu.edu Phone:(412) CMU-BUGS Amateur Packet Radio: N3FGW@W2XO, or c/o W3VC, CMU Radio Club, Pittsburgh, PA "You can do what you want with my computer, but leave me alone!8-)"
henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) (10/13/88)
In article <360@elan.UUCP> jlo@elan.UUCP (Jeff Lo) writes: >... There was no mention of X Windows. ... Don't hold your breath waiting for it. Jobs has a very low opinion of X. >... The NuBus is run at 25 MHz (Jobs compared it to a 10 MHz NuBus, >is this what the Mac II uses?).... Probably, since that's what a NuBus is supposed to run at. (At least according to the spec I have, which is admittedly old.) Sigh, Yet Another New And Improved And Faster And Better (and incompatible) Bus. -- The meek can have the Earth; | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology the rest of us have other plans.|uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu
milo@ndmath.UUCP (Greg Corson) (10/14/88)
My only comment so far....if the thing has only ONE optical disk and NO
other mass storage. Isn't it going to be kind of hard to copy software or
make backups?
Even with 8 meg in the machine...there is going to be a LOT of disk swapping
to do if you want to make a duplicate copy of that 300 M optical disk!
Is there an option for a second optical drive per chance?
Greg Corson
19141 Summers Drive
South Bend, IN 46637
(219) 277-5306
{pur-ee,rutgers,uunet}!iuvax!ndmath!miloelg@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Eric Green) (10/14/88)
in article <360@elan.UUCP>, jlo@elan.UUCP (Jeff Lo) says: Nit #1: First you say: > haven't tried this yet). Mass storage is on a 256 MB removable erasable > optical disk! Jobs said that the removable media goes for ~$50. The display Then you say: > All in all, the machine looked good and fast, although I wonder about > the fact that several desirable things were not mentioned, i.e., color > monitors, X-Windows, some kind of floppy drive for software distribution, ^^^^^^^^^^^^ One question: Why the hell have a floppy drive when you have a 256MB removable erasable optical disk? AND, why the hell have a typical SCSI tape drive for archival purposes, when you have a 256MB removable optical disk? I suspect that the optical drive is there as a replacement for the traditional floppy drive or streaming-tape cartridge; it's too slow to use as primary data store. I suspect the typical NeXT installation will look much like the typical Sun installation (file servers, and "nearly-diskless" nodes), except for user files on the optical drive (heck, it's no speed demon, but it's faster than a floppy.) Nit #2: Bemoaning "No X windows!" is silly. From what I hear, X-windows is slow, clumsy, huge, and, generally, Typical University Software ("Free software that's too expensive to use"). The NeXT windowing system looks a lot more user-friendly, and probably is faster, more compact, and more efficient. About the color monitor: I've seen rumours that they're "working on it." In any event, color is mostly useful for CAD/CAE applications, while from looking at the software packages included, the NeXT workstation seems targetted at academia. I see no real problem (I'm typing this right now from a window on a monochrome system, although it's an Amiga, not a NeXT). -- Eric Lee Green ..!{ames,decwrl,mit-eddie,osu-cis}!killer!elg Snail Mail P.O. Box 92191 Lafayette, LA 70509 It's understandable that Mike Dukakis thinks he can walk on water. He's used to walking on Boston harbor.
mdr@reed.UUCP (Mike Rutenberg) (10/14/88)
In article <17479@gatech.edu> ken@gatech.UUCP (Ken Seefried iii) writes: >Will they be including any development tools for >the DSP, like the Motorola assembler or (better) C compiler? I haven't seen it on paper but I'm pretty sure they are including the C 56000 C compiler for it. >I spent a little time doing work with optical disk technology, >and it was far, far to slow to be primary main storage. What >magic has NeXT worked to make it suitable? A person from Reed who was at the announcement said that things seemed to load slowly but then goes faster. That makes a lot of sense, since Mach uses as much memory as it can as a disk cache, making things go faster once you use them. The optional SCSI drives would be faster I suspect. >The big question of the day: how stable is Mach? Until >relatively recently, Mach was a reseach OS. Has NeXT >had time to get all the kinks out? CMU is planning a new release of Mach this fall which will be independent of the AT&T license requirements and will be more machine independent. I don't know what the NeXT people are using. It is such a nice machine. I wish I could go to school & buy a machine at the same time. I wish I had a BMW I could sell for a few bucks. Mike
daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) (10/14/88)
in article <17479@gatech.edu>, ken@gatech.edu (Ken Seefried III) says: > Summary: One of a million followup questions... > Xref: cbmvax comp.sys.misc:1941 comp.os.misc:565 comp.misc:4233 comp.arch:6833 >>Mass storage is on a 256 MB removable erasable >>optical disk! Jobs said that the removable media goes for ~$50. The display > I spent a little time doing work with optical disk technology, > and it was far, far to slow to be primary main storage. What > magic has NeXT worked to make it suitable? They say it's DMA driven and has an 8K static RAM cache. The words "very little" come to mind. Certainly stuff's going to be cached in DRAM as well; the standard setup is 8 megs. But 96ms is SLOW... >>the NuBus. The NuBus is run at 25 MHz (Jobs compared it to a 10 MHz NuBus, >>is this what the Mac II uses?). > Several questions...I thought that NuBus was standardised to > run at 10MHz, synchronous. Is 'NuBus' running at 25MHz still > NuBus? Will not most availible NuBus cards choke? I'd sure expect all available NuBus cards to choke. Not only is NuBus set at 10MHz, but this NeXT bus is also apparently defined at CMOS, not TTL, levels. Certainly that'll kill the one standard NuBus card that would have otherwise worked. However, it might make some sense. While NuBus isn't a great match to the 680x0 family, certainly running NuBus synced to the host CPU is going to eliminate the sync-up slowdowns you see in a machine like the Mac II. And if they are otherwise NuBus, perhaps they're counting on developers to figure that a redesign for NeXT is a much smaller step than going to a completely different bus. Or perhaps they don't care about 3rd party devices, planning instead to populate that bus with additional CPU cards and PIXAR things. > Also, what form factor are the cards: the original (MIT/TI) > Eurocard or the Apple form factor? The size certainly implies Eurocard; the whole computer is actually on a card. Apparently the box is really just a backplane and power supply. >> , some kind of floppy drive for software distribution, >>etc. I imagine a typical SCSI tape drive could be used for archival >>storage. > umm...Why? The optical is removable, no? non-volitile? > indestructable? 256MB? Seems like a pretty good > backup/distribution media to me... So you're going to spring for the second optical drive. Or copy 256MB, 7.5Meg at a time, in an 90's version of the old "floppy shuffle". I guess any real power used is going to need a real hard drive anyway; I could think of worse than 256Meg floppies... >>Jeff Lo > ken seefried iii ...!{akgua, allegra, amd, harpo, hplabs, -- Dave Haynie "The 32 Bit Guy" Commodore-Amiga "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: D-DAVE H BIX: hazy "I can't relax, 'cause I'm a Boinger!"
ken@gatech.edu (Ken Seefried iii) (10/14/88)
In article <5806@killer.DALLAS.TX.US> elg@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Eric Green) writes: >in article <360@elan.UUCP>, jlo@elan.UUCP (Jeff Lo) says: > >Nit #1: First you say: >> haven't tried this yet). Mass storage is on a 256 MB removable erasable >> optical disk! Jobs said that the removable media goes for ~$50. The display > >Then you say: >> All in all, the machine looked good and fast, although I wonder about >> the fact that several desirable things were not mentioned, i.e., color >> monitors, X-Windows, some kind of floppy drive for software distribution, > ^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >One question: Why the hell have a floppy drive when you have a 256MB !!!! very mature... >removable erasable optical disk? AND, why the hell have a typical SCSI >tape drive for archival purposes, when you have a 256MB removable >optical disk? Because, as was pointed out by an earlier poster, since there is but one optical platter, and you take it out to archive it, what do you intend to run your machine on? Or perhaps you prefer swaping platters (like to old single floppy machines). at 8MB a swap, thats only 32 swaps. Besides, what it you only want to mail a 10K file to a friend. 256MB (and $50) seems like overkill to me... >I suspect that the optical drive is there as a >replacement for the traditional floppy drive or streaming-tape >cartridge; it's too slow to use as primary data store. I suspect the >typical NeXT installation will look much like the typical Sun >installation (file servers, and "nearly-diskless" nodes), except for >user files on the optical drive (heck, it's no speed demon, but it's >faster than a floppy.) No, wrong, incorrect. Read any one of the 3 or 4 detailed postings. The optical is PRIMARY storage. And no, NeXT instillations will be quite disk-full, as a 330MB and 660MB normal hard drive is a reasonably priced option.... >Nit #2: Bemoaning "No X windows!" is silly. From what I hear, >X-windows is slow, clumsy, huge, and, generally, Typical University >Software ("Free software that's too expensive to use"). The NeXT >windowing system looks a lot more user-friendly, and probably is >faster, more compact, and more efficient. From what you heard, eh? Well, perhaps X may be desirable because there is a huge amount of work being done on it in the academic world, and there is a substantial amount of software running under X. Perhaps X may be desirable to allow transparent (kindof) interaction with those obsolete Suns and Apollos and SGI and Multiflows, etc. lying around that run X. Furthermore, while X is big and rough on the programmer, a whole buch of companies have decided that it is the way to go, companies that don't think that it is "too expensive to use". Little companies like DEC and IBM and Sun... >About the color monitor: I've seen rumours that they're "working on >it." In any event, color is mostly useful for CAD/CAE applications, >while from looking at the software packages included, the NeXT >workstation seems targetted at academia. I see no real problem (I'm >typing this right now from a window on a monochrome system, although >it's an Amiga, not a NeXT). > Well YOU don't see a problem, but I see a bunch of people screaming. Chemists like to have a different colour for each element when they model molecules, for example. As you point out, NeXT is for academia. Well the academia here at Georgia Tech seems to want colour. Perhaps you could convince them otherwise... Indeed, the single largest complant that people here have had with NeXT is lack of colour support. Besides...colour sure looks good...;-) >-- >Eric Lee Green ..!{ames,decwrl,mit-eddie,osu-cis}!killer!elg > Snail Mail P.O. Box 92191 Lafayette, LA 70509 I can see now that the disinformation and ignorance surrounding the NeXT machine is going to follow it a bit longer... ken seefried iii ...!{akgua, allegra, amd, harpo, hplabs, ken@gatech.edu inhp4, masscomp, rlgvax, sb1, uf-cgrl, ccastks@gitvm1.bitnet unmvax, ut-ngp, ut-sally}!gatech!ken soon to be open: ...!gatech!spooge!ken (finally ;'})
jensen@gt-eedsp.UUCP (P. Allen Jensen) (10/14/88)
In article <5806@killer.DALLAS.TX.US>, elg@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Eric Green) writes: > ............. I suspect that the optical drive is there as a > replacement for the traditional floppy drive or streaming-tape > cartridge; it's too slow to use as primary data store............... I have seen access speed listed as somewhere between 30 and 90ms, 30ms being the peek and 90ms being an unknown measurement. My understanding of magneto-optical disks is that they should be capable of up to 20ms access time (see Feb. 1988 IEEE Spectrum, "Optical disks become erasable" Can someone clear up all this confusion about the NeXT Optical Disk - What are the actual specs. from NeXT ? P. Allen Jensen -- P. Allen Jensen Georgia Tech, School of Electrical Engineering, Atlanta, GA 30332-0250 USENET: ...!{allegra,hplabs,ihnp4,ulysses}!gatech!gt-eedsp!jensen INTERNET: jensen@gteedsp.gatech.edu
john@anasaz.UUCP (John Moore) (10/14/88)
In article <5806@killer.DALLAS.TX.US> elg@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Eric Green) writes:
]in article <360@elan.UUCP>, jlo@elan.UUCP (Jeff Lo) says:
]
]One question: Why the hell have a floppy drive when you have a 256MB
]removable erasable optical disk? AND, why the hell have a typical SCSI
^^^^^^^^
]tape drive for archival purposes, when you have a 256MB removable
]optical disk? I suspect that the optical drive is there as a
And if you accidently type "rm -r *" or something equivalent?
If its erasable, it needs a backup.
And, as was mentioned before, how about software distribution? The
removable disk media costs ~$50.00!
Finally, does anyone know which "magneto-optical" technology is
being used on the drive and how it works?
--
John Moore (NJ7E) {decvax, ncar, ihnp4}!noao!nud!anasaz!john
(602) 861-7607 (day or eve) {gatech, ames, rutgers}!ncar!...
The opinions expressed here are obviously not mine, so they must be
someone else's. :-)cme@cloud9.UUCP (Carl Ellison) (10/15/88)
In article <360@elan.UUCP>, jlo@elan.UUCP (Jeff Lo) writes: > > The entire CPU board consists of 45 chips as compared to 100+ for a fast > PC and 300+ for a typical workstation. Everything has been crammed onto > a 12 inch square board through the use of very dense surface mounted > devices, and a few large custom CMOS chips. By my calculator, 45 chips in 144 square inches gives 3.2 sq.in. per chip, on the average. Since a number of those need to be memory (therefore not monster PGAs), I don't see the need to cram. What's up here? --Carl Ellison ...!harvard!anvil!es!cme (normal mail address) ...!ulowell!cloud9!cme (usenet news reading)
spolsky-joel@CS.YALE.EDU (Joel Spolsky) (10/15/88)
In article <1229@ndmath.UUCP> milo@ndmath.UUCP (Greg Corson) writes: | My only comment so far....if the thing has only ONE optical disk and NO | other mass storage. Isn't it going to be kind of hard to copy software or | make backups? | | Even with 8 meg in the machine...there is going to be a LOT of disk swapping | to do if you want to make a duplicate copy of that 300 M optical disk! | | Is there an option for a second optical drive per chance? The NeXT box has two full-height 5.25" bays, one of which is taken up by the 256M optical disk. You can buy another optical disk for $1495, although because the optical disks are so slow (96-ms average seek time) I suspect many will buy the SCSI hard drives (e.g. 670MB for $3995) as their main drive. By the way, the optical disks have 30% redundancy for error correction which is why they only (!) hold 256M formatted. Tiny little critters. +----------------+---------------------------------------------------+ | Joel Spolsky | bitnet: spolsky@yalecs uucp: ...!yale!spolsky | | | arpa: spolsky@yale.edu voicenet: 203-436-1483 | +----------------+---------------------------------------------------+ #include <disclaimer.h>
spolsky-joel@CS.YALE.EDU (Joel Spolsky) (10/15/88)
In article <1988Oct13.164708.10064@utzoo.uucp> henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) writes: | In article <360@elan.UUCP> jlo@elan.UUCP (Jeff Lo) writes: | | ... The NuBus is run at 25 MHz (Jobs compared it to a 10 MHz NuBus, | | is this what the Mac II uses?).... | | Probably, since that's what a NuBus is supposed to run at. (At least | according to the spec I have, which is admittedly old.) Sigh, Yet Another | New And Improved And Faster And Better (and incompatible) Bus. Well, the SCSI bus is compatible with Macintoshes. The fast NuBus will allow multiprocessor enviroments quite comfortably. The Byte article spoke of OS support (ultimately) for assigning threads (lightweight processes) to different processors. +----------------+---------------------------------------------------+ | Joel Spolsky | bitnet: spolsky@yalecs uucp: ...!yale!spolsky | | | arpa: spolsky@yale.edu voicenet: 203-436-1483 | +----------------+---------------------------------------------------+ #include <disclaimer.h>
spolsky-joel@CS.YALE.EDU (Joel Spolsky) (10/15/88)
In article <17479@gatech.edu> ken@gatech.UUCP (Ken Seefried iii) writes: | Will they be including any development tools for | the DSP, like the Motorola assembler or (better) C compiler? (reprinted without permission from Byte:) "There is [sic] also a number of library functions (not objects) that allow you to tap into the processing capabilities of the DSP. These libraries provide some 50 functions for performing tasks like fast Fourier transforms, and spectral filtering." BYTE claims the primary compiler is the GNU-C compiler, with the GNU debugger and Emacs, plus Objective-C 4.0, (in which widgets like buttons, scroll bars, etc are "objects" and can be treated as such), and an "Interface Builder" that's kind of like programming hypertalk only it generates full blown programs, not hyperstacks. | I spent a little time doing work with optical disk technology, | and it was far, far to slow to be primary main storage. What | magic has NeXT worked to make it suitable? None. Average seek time = 96 ms. +----------------+---------------------------------------------------+ | Joel Spolsky | bitnet: spolsky@yalecs uucp: ...!yale!spolsky | | | arpa: spolsky@yale.edu voicenet: 203-436-1483 | +----------------+---------------------------------------------------+ #include <disclaimer.h>
spolsky-joel@CS.YALE.EDU (Joel Spolsky) (10/15/88)
In article <4991@cbmvax.UUCP> daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) writes: | in article <17479@gatech.edu>, ken@gatech.edu (Ken Seefried III) says: | | | Also, what form factor are the cards: the original (MIT/TI) | | Eurocard or the Apple form factor? | | The size certainly implies Eurocard; the whole computer is actually on a | card. Apparently the box is really just a backplane and power supply. | Right. Each slot uses a Eurocard type C connector. +----------------+---------------------------------------------------+ | Joel Spolsky | bitnet: spolsky@yalecs uucp: ...!yale!spolsky | | | arpa: spolsky@yale.edu voicenet: 203-436-1483 | +----------------+---------------------------------------------------+ #include <disclaimer.h>
droid@mcrware.UUCP (Andy Nicholson) (10/15/88)
In article <17479@gatech.edu>, ken@gatech.edu (Ken Seefried III) writes: > >Jobs announced the following prices (apparently education prices): > > > > NeXT computer: $6500 > > NeXT PostScript Printer: $2000 > > 330 MB winchester disk: $2000 > > 660 MB winchester disk: $4000 > > Who do I give my cheque to...? (notice, no smiley face) Not so fast there: According to the local newspaper (Des Moines Register) The prices announced at the introduction were "University" prices. The prices for regular folks, "Commercial" prices for a NeXT box will be around $10,000. While this is still more for less than anybody else has, (see Thursday's Wall Street Journal), and is the only thing I know of with *Real* DSP capability (Amiga comes close, but not quite), it is more than a new car costs. I still want one, but I think $10,000 is out of the range of any concept of a personal (Home) computer, no matter how sophisticated the user. It would especially annoy me to think that a college student could purchase one of these but I could not. If said college student could get come up with $6500 in the first place ;-). Andy Nicholson, Microware Systems Corp. The company policy manual says that I do not speak for the company, so these must be my opinions, not theirs.
jeff@lorrie.atmos.washington.edu (Jeff Bowden) (10/15/88)
In article <17485@gatech.edu> ken@gatech.edu (Ken Seefried iii) writes: >In article <5806@killer.DALLAS.TX.US> elg@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Eric Green) writes: >>in article <360@elan.UUCP>, jlo@elan.UUCP (Jeff Lo) says: >>Nit #2: Bemoaning "No X windows!" is silly. From what I hear, >>X-windows is slow, clumsy, huge, and, generally, Typical University > From what you heard, eh? Well, perhaps X may be desirable > because there is a huge amount of work being done on it in > the academic world, and there is a substantial amount of > software running under X. I don't think a lack of X support from NeXT will be that damaging even to those who want to use X. Do you actually think no one will write a NeXT driver for X? After all it is a 68030 running something that can basically be viewed as Unix (from the program point of view). It won't even be necessary to choose between X and NeXT on a NeXT machine because you will probably be able to run X from within NeXT (like you can from within SunView). Perhaps you will even be able to run X in its own window.
rick@pcrat.UUCP (Rick Richardson) (10/15/88)
In article <5806@killer.DALLAS.TX.US> elg@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Eric Green) writes: >One question: Why the hell have a floppy drive when you have a 256MB >removable erasable optical disk? Because even "free" software will cost $50 on an eraseable optical disk, at least for the next several years. Plus, there is no "standard" eraseable optical disk, and 256MB is just too small (given other announced alternatives) to make me believe that it will be the standard. -- Rick Richardson | JetRoff "di"-troff to LaserJet Postprocessor|uunet!pcrat!dry2 PC Research,Inc.| Mail: uunet!pcrat!jetroff; For anon uucp do:|for Dhrystone 2 uunet!pcrat!rick| uucp jetroff!~jetuucp/file_list ~nuucp/. |submission forms. jetroff Wk2200-0300,Sa,Su ACU {2400,PEP19200} 12013898963 "" \r ogin: jetuucp
elm@ernie.Berkeley.EDU (ethan miller) (10/15/88)
In article <2070@cloud9.UUCP> cme@cloud9.UUCP (Carl Ellison) writes: ->In article <360@elan.UUCP>, jlo@elan.UUCP (Jeff Lo) writes: ->> ->> The entire CPU board consists of 45 chips as compared to 100+ for a fast ->> PC and 300+ for a typical workstation. Everything has been crammed onto ->> a 12 inch square board through the use of very dense surface mounted ->> devices, and a few large custom CMOS chips. -> ->By my calculator, 45 chips in 144 square inches ->gives 3.2 sq.in. per chip, on the average. ->Since a number of those need to be memory (therefore not monster PGAs), ->I don't see the need to cram. ->What's up here? ->--Carl Ellison ...!harvard!anvil!es!cme (normal mail address) I saw a picture of the board today. The guest speaker in our graduate computer architecture class had it with him. I'd say the 45 chips can't include the memory. There must be 64 1Mx1 bit chips to get 8MB on board, and that's already more than 65. There are also 2 large custom chips, a DSP, a 68030 and 68882, and assorted drivers and buffers. Jobs even left about four or so square inches free for his name. Those custom chips and the other "main" chips are pretty big, especially the custom gate arrays. If you exclude the memory area and the name plate, you're down to about 100 square inches or less, which is not so much considering how many chips with 200 pins are on the board. ethan +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ethan miller (EECS graduate serf) | "Quod erat demonstrandum, baby." bandersnatch@ernie.berkeley.edu | "Oooh, you speak French!" They're my opinions; don't abuse them. | - Thomas Dolby, "Airhead"
james@bigtex.cactus.org (James Van Artsdalen) (10/15/88)
In <5806@killer.DALLAS.TX.US>, elg@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Eric Green) wrote: > One question: Why the hell have a floppy drive when you have a 256MB > removable erasable optical disk? Each one of those 256MB disks costs almost as much as a floppy disk *drive*. How do you propose NeXT to economically distribute updates & software? Certainly not on a $50 optical disk! -- James R. Van Artsdalen james@bigtex.cactus.org "Live Free or Die" Home: 512-346-2444 Work: 338-8789 9505 Arboretum Blvd Austin TX 78759
sjrudek@sactoh0.UUCP (Steve J. Rudek) (10/16/88)
answer to -- the above questions. No one has, and I'm tired of waiting! There are obviously a lot of USENET folks jumping up and down and salivating because (a) NeXT is offering an "educational discount" and (b) they are "students" (I surmise). Is it correct to assume that *individual* students will also be eligible for this price discount? (If so, I suppose I can always go back to school for a quarter:) I keep hearing that MACH is *derived* from UNIX -- and, in one previous message, that the new release of the OS will be free from AT&T licensing. This, to me, raises the obvious question: is MACH a *complete* UNIX clone? Does it include basically *all* the utility programs that come pretty much standard with AT&T/BSD UNIX? Just how (a) buggy and (b) compatible can we expect it to be? There are LOTS of UNIX clones already out there (e.g., Coherent, Idris, Minix) but there are significant reasons why most of us prefer the real thing. -- ############################################################# # PRIVATE # Serving The State Capitol # # PARKING # Of California: sactoh0 # #############################################################
hodas@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Josh Hodas) (10/16/88)
In article <2070@cloud9.UUCP> cme@cloud9.UUCP (Carl Ellison) writes: >In article <360@elan.UUCP>, jlo@elan.UUCP (Jeff Lo) writes: >> >> The entire CPU board consists of 45 chips as compared to 100+ for a fast >> PC and 300+ for a typical workstation. Everything has been crammed onto >> a 12 inch square board through the use of very dense surface mounted >> devices, and a few large custom CMOS chips. > >By my calculator, 45 chips in 144 square inches >gives 3.2 sq.in. per chip, on the average. > >Since a number of those need to be memory (therefore not monster PGAs), >I don't see the need to cram. > >What's up here? > > >--Carl Ellison ...!harvard!anvil!es!cme (normal mail address) > ...!ulowell!cloud9!cme (usenet news reading) Well, It seems clear that the 45 chip count does not include the memory. If we make the fairly safe assumption that Jobs is using nothing bigger than 1 Megabit drams, then the 8 megs standard in the machine would require 64 chips (assuming no parity check bit), so it must be 45 chips in addition to ram. Josh ------------------------- Josh Hodas (hodas@eniac.seas.upenn.edu) 4223 Pine Street Philadelphia, PA 19104 (215) 222-7112 (home) (215) 898-5423 (school office)
dorn@fabscal.UUCP (Alan Dorn Hetzel) (10/16/88)
In article <596@pcrat.UUCP> rick@pcrat.UUCP (Rick Richardson) writes: > >Because even "free" software will cost $50 on an eraseable optical disk, >at least for the next several years. Plus, there is no "standard" eraseable >optical disk, and 256MB is just too small (given other announced alternatives) >to make me believe that it will be the standard. Well, 360K was WAY to small to be the standard floppy, but there are sure a lot of them out there. Standards are rarely out on the edge of capability, tending towards the more affordable lower half of what is possible. I think that the 256MB removable has a good chance of becoming something of a standard if NeXT sells many systems. Dorn gatech.edu!fabscal!dorn
dorn@fabscal.UUCP (Alan Dorn Hetzel) (10/16/88)
In article <2070@cloud9.UUCP> cme@cloud9.UUCP (Carl Ellison) writes: > >By my calculator, 45 chips in 144 square inches >gives 3.2 sq.in. per chip, on the average. > >Since a number of those need to be memory (therefore not monster PGAs), >I don't see the need to cram. > >What's up here? > If you stop to think, 45 chips doesn't include the 8 megabytes of memory, or if it does, it's not your typical memory chips, some sort of mondo hybrid packaging. My guess is that the 45 refers to other than memory chips, which don't get counted generally, since they can vary by configuration. 8 megabytes of 1-megabit (what they used, i hear) chips, with byte parity, would be 72 chips, which would tighten up the spacing a little, no? Dorn gatech.edu!fabscal!dorn
jmj@mhuxu.UUCP (J. M. Johnson) (10/16/88)
Why do people insist on continuously posting to inappropriate newsgroups.
Please take all this discussion about this NeXT crap to 'alt.next' where
it belongs.
--
Life's just a game, you fly a paper plane, there is no end. - TBA
J. M. Johnson, AT&T Bell Laboratories, Reading, PA ...!att!mhuxu!jmjlouie@trantor.umd.edu (Louis A. Mamakos) (10/16/88)
In article <1390@anasaz.UUCP> john@anasaz.UUCP (John Moore) writes: > >And, as was mentioned before, how about software distribution? The >removable disk media costs ~$50.00! Funny, no one is complaining that their SUN 3/60 doesn't have a floppy disk on it. Why should the NeXT box? Or do you think this is just a super-duper IBM-PC? I thought that this thing was a WORKSTATION targeted at Universities.. some some PC or Mac clone. Excuse me if I offended those of you who think PC and Mac class machines are workstations. Hey, I've got an Amiga 2000 at home, and I don't delude myself in thinking of it in the same class as a Sun or MicroVAX. Louis A. Mamakos WA3YMH Internet: louie@TRANTOR.UMD.EDU University of Maryland, Computer Science Center - Systems Programming
henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) (10/16/88)
In article <6483@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> elm@ernie.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (ethan miller) writes: >... I'd say the 45 chips can't >include the memory. There must be 64 1Mx1 bit chips to get 8MB on board, and >that's already more than 65... If you assume that "chips" is loose language for "packages", note that the most compact way of packaging RAMs is in SIMMs, which put 8 or so RAMs in a single package. -- The meek can have the Earth; | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology the rest of us have other plans.|uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu
schultz@mmm.UUCP (John C Schultz) (10/16/88)
A couple points about the 256 MB optical drive I have not seen mentioned.
Summarizing my opinions, a 256 MB optical disk drive seems a tad too large or
too small to be a really useful media system.
Case A) - Software Distribution.
It would seem that the best cost/performance ratio would occur if removable
media were sized to typical distribution software. I can just see people
paying $50 media costs for 500 KB of data. Even large programs such as GNU
EMACS, TeX, and X11R2 fit on a 45 MB tape with room to spare. WHAT TAKES 256
MB to distribute?? It is easy to use 256 MB but not with one distribution. Oh
I forgot about the complete works of Shakspeare to which I refer at least
daily :-).
Case B) - Backup
If you have one 330 MB drive (which will not be enough - somebody's law), you
need TWO disks to back it up. A 660 MB is 3 disks, etc. Why is the removable
disk not a 1+ GB optical disk? Cost? Technology? Disk shuffling will still
be a problem, escpecially if people implement 100+ networks of NeXT machines,
each of which need to be backed up.
--
john c. schultz schultz@mmm.3m.UUCP (612) 733-4047
3M Center, Bldg 518-1-1, St. Paul, MN 55144-1000
The opinions expressed herein are, as always, my own and not 3M's.csimmons@hqpyr1.oracle.UUCP (Charles Simmons) (10/16/88)
In article <360@elan.UUCP> jlo@elan.UUCP (Jeff Lo) writes: >Well, I just got back from the NeXT introduction at Davies Symphony Hall >in San Francisco and thought I would update the net on what Steve Jobs >announced about the NeXT computer. ... >All in all, the machine looked good and fast, although I wonder about >the fact that several desirable things were not mentioned, i.e., color >monitors, X-Windows, some kind of floppy drive for software distribution, >etc. I imagine a typical SCSI tape drive could be used for archival >storage. >-- >Jeff Lo So far I've heard three objections to the design of te NeXT machine, and I'm wondering just how valid the objections are. The first objection is that the machine doesn't have a floppy drive for software distribution. The second objection, somewhat related, is that there is only one drive, so that when copying disks, the user will have to sit around and swap disks in and out of the drive. It seems to me that the people who raise these objections aren't considering the type of environment that the NeXT machine was designed to run in. Certainly, these would be valid criticims if the NeXT machine was designed to be a standalone PC. However, the NeXT machine comes equipped with Ethernet capability, and most people will want to attach their machine to a network. In a networked environment, both software distribution and archiving should be simple. For archiving, I would store my files on a file server, and allow the operations staff perform daily backups of my files. For software distribution, a software publisher could distribute a tape to the administrators of the network and have the administrators collect a fee from each user that wanted to use the software. When a user had paid her fee, she would be allowed to access the file. Alternatively, a user could buy the software, wander down to the tape drive attached to a file server on the network, mount her software, and copy it onto her machine. Also, with the existence of the SCSI port, user's can go out and buy additional attachments for handling these tasks, as Jeff points out. The third criticism is that the Optical disk is slow. This seems like a valid criticism. But maybe now that the NeXT machine is helping to make optical disks standard attachments to computers, optical disk manufacturers will begin to have a large incentive to increase the speed at which their disks access data. Comments? -- Chuck
muir@postgres.uucp (David Muir Sharnoff) (10/16/88)
In article <1152@mmm.UUCP> schultz@mmm.UUCP (John C Schultz) writes: >A couple points about the 256 MB optical drive I have not seen mentioned. >Summarizing my opinions, a 256 MB optical disk drive seems a tad too large or >too small to be a really useful media system. > >Case A) - Software Distribution. > >Case B) - Backup I think you are missing the main point of the machine: it is for students. As a student I am not given anywhere close to 256MB of disk space. It would be *wonderful* to be able to carry around a laser disk with all of my files on it. Case C) - Portable User File System -Dave
csimmons@hqpyr1.oracle.UUCP (Charles Simmons) (10/16/88)
In article <2070@cloud9.UUCP> cme@cloud9.UUCP (Carl Ellison) writes: >In article <360@elan.UUCP>, jlo@elan.UUCP (Jeff Lo) writes: >> The entire CPU board consists of 45 chips as compared to 100+ for a fast >> PC and 300+ for a typical workstation. Everything has been crammed onto >> a 12 inch square board through the use of very dense surface mounted >> devices, and a few large custom CMOS chips. > >By my calculator, 45 chips in 144 square inches >gives 3.2 sq.in. per chip, on the average. > >Since a number of those need to be memory (therefore not monster PGAs), >I don't see the need to cram. > >What's up here? >--Carl Ellison ...!harvard!anvil!es!cme (normal mail address) Note that the standard 8 Megabytes of memory requires 64 1-Megabit chips. (I'm told that there is no parity bit.) Thus, there are 45 chips in somewhat less than 144 square inches. Since the board itself has to fit inside of a 12" cabinent, the board is obviously somewhat smaller. -- Chuck [So, um, anyone know who wrote this 'rn' software and why it won't let me send a response that's shorter than the original message...]
ltf@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Lance Franklin) (10/16/88)
In article <1152@mmm.UUCP> schultz@mmm.UUCP (John C Schultz) writes: >A couple points about the 256 MB optical drive I have not seen mentioned. >Summarizing my opinions, a 256 MB optical disk drive seems a tad too large or >too small to be a really useful media system. > >Case A) - Software Distribution. > >It would seem that the best cost/performance ratio would occur if removable >media were sized to typical distribution software. I can just see people >paying $50 media costs for 500 KB of data. Even large programs such as GNU >EMACS, TeX, and X11R2 fit on a 45 MB tape with room to spare. WHAT TAKES 256 >MB to distribute?? It is easy to use 256 MB but not with one distribution. Oh >I forgot about the complete works of Shakspeare to which I refer at least >daily :-). I think you're probably right on this count...a $50 dollar disk (even if it goes down in price quite a bit in quanity) is NOT the kind of thing you want to be distributing NeXT-Moria on. Perhaps we'll see a SCSI-based floppy disk at some time in the future for this machine (It DOES have SCSI, doesn't it?) >Case B) - Backup > >If you have one 330 MB drive (which will not be enough - somebody's law), you >need TWO disks to back it up. A 660 MB is 3 disks, etc. Why is the removable >disk not a 1+ GB optical disk? Cost? Technology? Disk shuffling will still >be a problem, escpecially if people implement 100+ networks of NeXT machines, >each of which need to be backed up. Well, I don't think it will necessarily take two 256k opticals to backup a 330 MB drive, considering most good backup programs do some kind of compression on the data while moving it to the backup media...and usually, one doesn't backup the entire system every time. You do a total backup once, then incremental backups every so often afterwards. What confuses me is, the last time I heard, R/W optical disks had a definate limit as to the number of writes that could be done...eventually, they just stopped taking data reliably after ~n number of writes. Is this a problem with the NeXT drives...I hope not, since I've heard talk of swaps being done to the drive when it's the sole mass storage device. Lance . -- +-------------------------+ +-----------------------------------------------+ | Lance T Franklin | | I never said that! It must be some kind of a | | ltf@killer.DALLAS.TX.US | | forgery...I gotta change that password again. | +-------------------------+ +-----------------------------------------------+
rick@pcrat.UUCP (Rick Richardson) (10/16/88)
In article <3021@haven.umd.edu> louie@trantor.umd.edu (Louis A. Mamakos) writes: > >Funny, no one is complaining that their SUN 3/60 doesn't have a floppy >disk on it. Why should the NeXT box? Or do you think this is just a OK, then, let me be the first. I find it totally inconvenient to have to take my tar or cpio HD floppies and rewrite them to have the the archive inside an MS-DOS file (great fun if the archive is bigger than one disk), bring them in to work and down the hall to the PC, and ftp them to the sun. I've got *hundreds* of floppies with usable source code (typically 1 or 2 HD disks per package), but what a pain in the butt. Return trip, same problem. The story would be different if we'd been collecting software all along on optical disk. My whole library would fit on one of the Maxtor 1 gigabyte opticals, or 3 on the NeXT. But that wasn't an option. -- Rick Richardson | JetRoff "di"-troff to LaserJet Postprocessor|uunet!pcrat!dry2 PC Research,Inc.| Mail: uunet!pcrat!jetroff; For anon uucp do:|for Dhrystone 2 uunet!pcrat!rick| uucp jetroff!~jetuucp/file_list ~nuucp/. |submission forms. jetroff Wk2200-0300,Sa,Su ACU {2400,PEP19200} 12013898963 "" \r ogin: jetuucp
csimmons@hqpyr1.oracle.UUCP (Charles Simmons) (10/16/88)
In article <17479@gatech.edu> ken@gatech.UUCP (Ken Seefried iii) writes: > I spent a little time doing work with optical disk technology, > and it was far, far to slow to be primary main storage. What > magic has NeXT worked to make it suitable? > > ken seefried iii ...!{akgua, allegra, amd, harpo, hplabs, Random question for the day... Suppose I buy one of these NeXT boxes, and I buy, say, a 30MB hard disk drive with 20 ms seek times for something less than $1000. Now, I attach this little drive to my SCSI port. At this point, I basically teach the operating system to use the disk as a cache for the slower optical drive. A few questions arise: For Mach gurus: How hard will it be, using Mach, to implement the hard drive as a cache? For cache gurus: Will 30MB be sufficiently large to significantly reduce the amount of accesses I need to make to the optical drive? -- Chuck
peter@ficc.uu.net (Peter da Silva) (10/16/88)
I can see an obvious thing to put on a 256mb optical drive... a student's working environment. This is an alternate solution to the problem addressed by Athena or Andrew... the student walks up to any NeXT machine on campus, puts his $50 optical disk in, and reboots. Now it's *his* machine. The workstation becomes the 1990s version of a 1980s floppy-based campus PC. Of course the security problems this would cause a network are obvious... I hope the NeXTwork (heh) has more in common with Athena than NFS. -- Peter da Silva `-_-' Ferranti International Controls Corporation. "Have you hugged U your wolf today?" peter@ficc.uu.net
roy@phri.UUCP (Roy Smith) (10/17/88)
Various People have been complaining that a $50 "optical floppy" is
far too expensive to use for software distribution. Why not do a turn on
the usual "you've bought the disk but only licenced the software" routine?
When you buy a program you get a copy of the manuals to keep and a
distribution disk, on which you put a $50 deposit. You copy the software
onto your own local disk and send back the distribution disk to get your
$50 back.
Of course, the bookkeeping involved might well be prohibitive. You
also have to worry about the possibility of the user somehow destroying or
changing the bits on the disk.
--
Roy Smith, System Administrator
Public Health Research Institute
{allegra,philabs,cmcl2,rutgers}!phri!roy -or- phri!roy@uunet.uu.net
"The connector is the network"nerd@percival.UUCP (Michael Galassi) (10/17/88)
In article <9265@bigtex.cactus.org> james@bigtex.cactus.org (James Van Artsdalen) writes: >Each one of those 256MB disks costs almost as much as a floppy disk >*drive*. How do you propose NeXT to economically distribute updates & >software? Certainly not on a $50 optical disk! Why not? You send your original system disk to NeXT (you only work off a backup anyway, right?), they erase the original material and return it to you with the updated software on it. Also keep in mind that if our cost on the disk is $50, NeXT's cost on it is $50/4=$12.50 if they use the same rule of thumb ratios we use where I work, i.e. customer cost is 4 times our manufacturing cost. I beleive that a single 27512 (512 KBit EPROM) costs on the order of $10 in 100s, not that much less than a 256 MByte disk. Another thought comes to mind, a non-erasable optical disk can be had for $1 or 2 after you cover the fixed overhead of recording it, could updates be shiped on a non-erasable disk (discus volgaris? :-) that could be copied onto the real disk by the customer? I don't know if one could make the drives in the NeXT read any sort of cheap disk but if one could that would solve all the distribution problems. Anyone out there in the know? -michael -- Michael Galassi | If my opinions happen to be the same as ...!tektronix!percival!nerd | my employer's it is ONLY a coincidence, ...!sun!nosun!percival!nerd | of course coincidences OFTEN DO happen.
dpm@cs.cmu.edu (David Maynard) (10/17/88)
> I keep hearing that MACH is *derived* from UNIX -- and, in one > previous > message, that the new release of the OS will be free from > AT&T licensing. > This, to me, raises the obvious question: is MACH > a *complete* UNIX clone? > Does it include basically *all* the utility > programs that come pretty much > standard with AT&T/BSD UNIX? > Just > how (a) buggy and (b) compatible can we > expect it to be? There > are LOTS of UNIX clones already out there (e.g., > Coherent, Idris, > Minix) but there are significant reasons why most of us > prefer the > real thing. (Disclaimer: I just use Mach, I don't work on it. If you want Mach information then you should contact lynn@spice.cmu.edu or look at the published papers. There was a recent bibliography posting in comp.os.research.) First of all, Mach IS UNIX just as much as 4.3BSD is. Sure, there is a completely (for the most part) new kernel under the system call layer, but that only matters to people that want to use the new features like IPC and multi-threading. Sun re-wrote a large percentage of the kernel for SunOS 4.0 and peole don't question whether SunOS is still "UNIX." As far as compatibility is concerned, you can run your 4.3 VAX binaries on a Mach VAX without modification. In fact, I run a lot of Mach Sun binaries on my SunOS Sun (those that don't use the new features). I also consider the Mach systems I use to be just as stable as the non-Mach UNIX systems. Mach has been receiving a lot recent attention, but it has actually been in widespread use here for a long time. Speaking completely on rumor....reports of a public domain version of Mach are highly exaggerated. One of the biggest complaints that I have heard is over the large number of licenses that you need to get it. Except for local modifications, CMU basically uses the 4.3 utility set. If you want a PD UNIX then you had better start supporting GNU since they are the only ones I know who are really pursuing it. I certainly don't want to spend my time writing a PD version of "ed." The GNU people are interested in using the Mach kernel in their effort, but that doesn't mean that CMU will be releasing a PD Mach. --- David P. Maynard (dpm@cs.cmu.edu) Dept. of Electrical and Computer Engineering Carnegie Mellon University Pittsburgh, PA 15213 --- Any opinions expressed are mine only. I haven't asked the ECE department or CMU what they think. ---
wrs@pupthy.PRINCETON.EDU (William R. Somsky) (10/17/88)
In article <449@oracle.UUCP> csimmons@oracle.UUCP (Charles Simmons) writes: > So far I've heard three objections to the design of te NeXT machine, > and I'm wondering just how valid the objections are. The first objection > is that the machine doesn't have a floppy drive for software distribution. > ... > It seems to me that the people who raise these objections aren't considering > the type of environment that the NeXT machine was designed to run in. > Certainly, these would be valid criticims if the NeXT machine was > designed to be a standalone PC. However, the NeXT machine comes > equipped with Ethernet capability, and most people will want to attach > their machine to a network. ... Well, I had had the feeling that the NeXT machine was supposed to be designed so that the STUDENTS could own them. (I got this impression from Jobs himself when he made a stop here in Princeton some time ago (~1 year?). They arranged a lunch for him with about 20 students so he could meet with us and get our input. I was one of two grad students there.) If the students are going to own these, they'll have them in their dorm rooms, and they almost definitely WILL be run as standalone PC's. I know of one campus (Iowa State University) that has wired their dorm rooms with a second phone line for future data communications use, and there are probably more, but I doubt that ANYONE in the near future will be wiring their dorms with full ethernet capability, file servers and extra tape/disk drives for loading data. In a DEPARTMENTAL context, I can see the use of these machines in a fully networked environment, but then it'll be the professors who have the individual machines, possibly a FEW grad students (but not likely), and a couple machines for general undergrad use. But that's not terribly different from the way things are now with undergrad access to campus machines, and quite different from what I thought Jobs had been wanting to push: EACH student having their OWN machine. That also brings up another point, the $6500 price tag, *academic*. I don't know many undergrad students (or grad, for that matter, but I'm not sure Jobs was thinking about us at all) that could afford pay that much for a machine. When Jobs was here, he was probing us on the issue of cost as well as other things. The gist of the question was: "If we made this really neat machine that does all these thing, but it's kind of expensive, (I think he was vaguely suggesting the $3000 range, but don't remember) would you get one?" Of course one of our Princeton undergrads piped up with, "Oh sure; I'd just ask my parents to buy one for me", but most of the rest of us were more of the "Gee, well, I dunno..." persuasion. And now he's come out with a price of $6500? How many students are going to be able to afford that? That's a fair chunk of a year's cost at a private school and should be more than enough to pay for a full year (tuition, room&board, books, etc) at any state school. Maybe the economics of the thing has forced him to give up on the idea of letting the students themselves own them, but if it really was his intention to release a machine that's AFFORDABLE and USEFUL to the average, individual student, I think he's failed. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R. Somsky Physics Dept ; Princeton Univ wrs@pupthy.Princeton.EDU PO Box 708 ; Princeton NJ 08544
cloos@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (James H. Cloos Jr.) (10/17/88)
In article <5647@netnews.upenn.edu> hodas@eniac.seas.upenn.edu.UUCP (Josh Hodas) writes: |In article <2070@cloud9.UUCP> cme@cloud9.UUCP (Carl Ellison) writes: |>In article <360@elan.UUCP>, jlo@elan.UUCP (Jeff Lo) writes: |>> |>> The entire CPU board consists of 45 chips as compared to 100+ for a fast |>> PC and 300+ for a typical workstation. Everything has been crammed onto |>> a 12 inch square board through the use of very dense surface mounted |>> devices, and a few large custom CMOS chips. |> |>By my calculator, 45 chips in 144 square inches |>gives 3.2 sq.in. per chip, on the average. |> |>Since a number of those need to be memory (therefore not monster PGAs), |>I don't see the need to cram. |> |>What's up here? |Well, It seems clear that the 45 chip count does not include the memory. |If we make the fairly safe assumption that Jobs is using nothing bigger |than 1 Megabit drams, then the 8 megs standard in the machine would require |64 chips (assuming no parity check bit), so it must be 45 chips in addition |to ram. The spec's were posted to alt.next. The board has slots for 1Mx32 bit SIMMs. That is 16 chips for the 16 M max mem. 8 of those 16 slots are populated by default. See alt.next for details. P.S. The article in alt.next seems as though it is to be published; in BYTE perhaps. (It was long enough that I'm not sure now if it did say BYTE, but the author(s) did say that they were the 1st journalists to get an in depth look at a beta version.) -JimC -- batcomputer!cloos@cornell.UUCP |James H. Cloos, Jr.|#include <disclaimer.h> cloos@batcomputer.tn.cornell.EDU|B7 Upson, Cornell U|#include <cute_stuff.h> cloos@tcgould.tn.cornell.EDU |Ithaca, NY 14853 |"Entropy isn't what cloos@crnlthry.BITNET | +1 607 272 4519 | it used to be."
dorn@fabscal.UUCP (Alan Dorn Hetzel) (10/17/88)
In article <1152@mmm.UUCP> schultz@mmm.UUCP (John C Schultz) writes: >Case A) - Software Distribution. >It would seem that the best cost/performance ratio would occur if removable >media were sized to typical distribution software. I can just see people >paying $50 media costs for 500 KB of data. Even large programs such as GNU >EMACS, TeX, and X11R2 fit on a 45 MB tape with room to spare. WHAT TAKES 256 >MB to distribute?? It is easy to use 256 MB but not with one distribution. Oh >I forgot about the complete works of Shakspeare to which I refer at least >daily :-). > I understand the problem, but consider that not all that long ago, a box of ten 3.5 inch floppies could set you back almost $50. A 45Mb tape will still set you back half that or so. Yes, it may be a little bigger than needed for most situations (at present), but it may be a good compromise with future needs... Making it hold less wouldn't necessarily have made it any less expensive. If you are familiar with WORM disks (Write Once, Read Many Times), then you know that only quite recently, a 100Mb disk could set you back $200.00, so $50 for 256Mb is pretty good. I also feel that as volume of usage (and therefore production) of these disks builds up, the price will drop to about $10-$20. (fingers crossed) It does seem very reasonable to expect, given historical price curves for removable media of many sorts. >Case B) - Backup >If you have one 330 MB drive (which will not be enough - somebody's law), you >need TWO disks to back it up. A 660 MB is 3 disks, etc. Why is the removable >disk not a 1+ GB optical disk? Cost? Technology? Disk shuffling will still >be a problem, escpecially if people implement 100+ networks of NeXT machines, >each of which need to be backed up. > 1) You don't always have to back up your ENTIRE disk. 2) Think how many 45-60Mb tapes it would take, and what THEY would cost. 3) Since it's a rotating media, backup files can be had very quickly and individually (as oppossed to the usual tape methods) 4) Again, media cost will fall. 5) Maybe compression during backup (assisted by the 56001?) can yield fewer output disks needed to store 330 or 660Mb (maybe 1 for 330, 2 for 660) 6) Incremental backups are an option as well. 7) Backing up other 256Mb optical disks, it will always be big enough...! Dorn gatech.edu!fabscal!dorn
ken@gatech.edu (Ken Seefried III) (10/17/88)
In article <8453@mhuxu.UUCP> jmj@mhuxu.UUCP (J. M. Johnson) writes: > >Why do people insist on continuously posting to inappropriate newsgroups. >Please take all this discussion about this NeXT crap to 'alt.next' where >it belongs. > >J. M. Johnson, AT&T Bell Laboratories, Reading, PA ...!att!mhuxu!jmj Because most of the net does not get the "alt" hierarchy. That being the case, and there not (yet) being a "comp.sys.NeXT" group, the "misc" IS the appropriate group. Lighten up...and edit your kill file if it torques you out so much... ken seefried iii ...!{akgua, allegra, amd, harpo, hplabs, ken@gatech.edu masscomp, rlgvax, sb1, uf-cgrl, unmvax, ccastks@gitvm1.bitnet ut-ngp, ut-sally}!gatech!ken
wetter@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Pierce T. Wetter) (10/17/88)
>I forgot about the complete works of Shakspeare to which I refer at least >daily :-). > If I get a NeXt machine, (i.e. if 1: $6500 dollars appears in my pocket out of nowhere or 2: NeXt gives me one {I'll trade work for machine, need a ray tracer, NeXt?} ) one of the first things I'll do is wire the book of quotations and the works of shakespeare to the thesaurus in such a way that you can give it any subject and it will give you an appropriate quote. I.e give it "Dog" and you get a quote about dogs. After that, who needs fortune? NeXt Box% "What do you wish to work on today, oh master?" Me% "Women" NeXt Box% "Women are Evil, that's why they're so much fun. -PTW" Pierce
thomas@uplog.se (Thomas Hameenaho) (10/17/88)
In article <5806@killer.DALLAS.TX.US> elg@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Eric Green) writes:
+in article <360@elan.UUCP>, jlo@elan.UUCP (Jeff Lo) says:
+One question: Why the hell have a floppy drive when you have a 256MB
+removable erasable optical disk? AND, why the hell have a typical SCSI
+tape drive for archival purposes, when you have a 256MB removable
+optical disk?
Well, if the optical disk is your primary mass storage device, how do you
get anything new onto it if you have to take it out and put another disk in?
The old macintosh way? ("Please insert disk foo bar") :-).
I sure would like to have at least a streamer to do backups, software
distribution and file exchange with other systems. I sure hope it will be
compatible with most other streamers (not the hp way).
--
Real life: Thomas Hameenaho Email: thomas@uplog.{se,uucp}
Snail mail: TeleLOGIC Uppsala AB Phone: +46 18 189406
Box 1218 Fax: +46 18 132039
S - 751 42 Uppsala, Swedenmatt@srs.UUCP (Matt Goheen) (10/17/88)
In article <3542@phri.UUCP> roy@phri.UUCP (Roy Smith) writes: > Of course, the bookkeeping involved might well be prohibitive. You >also have to worry about the possibility of the user somehow destroying or >changing the bits on the disk. I wonder if NeXT has built in any way to write protect individual disks? "Evangelist Mode On" I envision a little hole in the disk that you can cover (with tape or chewing gum) to write protect the disk. "Evangelist Mode Off" Seems like a good idea to me. First time I've ever agreed with an evangelical type though... -- - uucp: {rutgers,ames}!rochester!srs!matt Matt Goheen - - internet: matt@srs.uucp OR matt%srs.uucp@harvard.harvard.edu - - "We had some good machines, but they don't work no more." -
spolsky-joel@CS.YALE.EDU (Joel Spolsky) (10/17/88)
In article <453@oracle.UUCP> csimmons@oracle.UUCP (Charles Simmons) writes: | | Random question for the day... Suppose I buy one of these NeXT | boxes, and I buy, say, a 30MB hard disk drive with 20 ms seek times | for something less than $1000. Now, I attach this little drive | to my SCSI port. At this point, I basically teach the operating | system to use the disk as a cache for the slower optical drive. You could easily mount /tmp and /bin on the fast hard disk, as well as some swap space, which would speed things up significantly. +----------------+---------------------------------------------------+ | Joel Spolsky | bitnet: spolsky@yalecs uucp: ...!yale!spolsky | | | arpa: spolsky@yale.edu voicenet: 203-436-1483 | +----------------+---------------------------------------------------+ #include <disclaimer.h>
dpm@cs.cmu.edu (David Maynard) (10/17/88)
> If the students are going to own these, they'll have them in their dorm > > rooms, and they almost definitely WILL be run as standalone PC's. I know > of > one campus (Iowa State University) that has wired their dorm rooms with > a > second phone line for future data communications use, and there are probably > > more, but I doubt that ANYONE in the near future will be wiring their dorms > > with full ethernet capability, file servers and extra tape/disk drives for > > loading data. I know that we are a lunatic fringe case at the moment, but CMU already has a token ring running to all of the dorm rooms. The campus computer store sells an ethernet adapter for the ring. NeXT machines here will probably use the Andrew software so they would have access to all of the Andrew file servers, printing facilities, etc. Students with IBM PC compatibles already have this access (if they fork out the money for a token ring card). It is expensive to wire a campus, but I think that more places will be doing it. I think the high price tag IS a real barrier to student sales. If you add up the component costs though, it would be REALLY hard to build a $3K workstation. The 68030 isn't cheap. Memory prices are still pretty high when you want 1Mbit parts, and hi-res monitors cost a pretty penny. NeXT has tried to side-step one of the big money sinks by selling hard disks as an option. I know that I would want one though. n --- David P. Maynard (dpm@cs.cmu.edu) Dept. of Electrical and Computer Engineering Carnegie Mellon University Pittsburgh, PA 15213 --- Any opinions expressed are mine only. I haven't asked the ECE department or CMU what they think. ---
wtr@moss.ATT.COM (10/18/88)
In article <3542@phri.UUCP> roy@phri.UUCP (Roy Smith) writes: > > Various People have been complaining that a $50 "optical floppy" is >far too expensive to use for software distribution. [ interesting thoughts about 'deposit' on distribution disks ] >Roy Smith, System Administrator >Public Health Research Institute well, the main problem i see with distributing software on them there disks is: [ note: assuming bare-bones next-box here. just purchased. nobody [ yet to ether-up to. just the optical drive. assumption: mach is somewhat similar to unix in it's use of disk swapping and paging. i really don't think it's a good idea to un-mount (or the mach equivolent) the one and only filesystem. remember, this is not mush-dos. we just (probably) can't pop the OD out any old time we want to and plug in the new one. nor can we eat up all the memory with a big fat juicey ram-disk without crashing the system. (remember we need program *and* swap space) i wellcome pointers on mach internals, etc... any mach gurus reading? there are two solutions: (that are realistic) a) ether-net. but only if you don't need that disk for swap space. b) use a hardrive as a root filesystem. keep your swap space here too, to increase speed. c) tape drive. (note b & c add bucks to the final tag :-( i am interrested in seeing (hands-on) this new machine. i don't think it's going to be anywhere near bug free. in fact, expect a nightmare for the first 12 months. (users manage to stumble across the most abstruse bugs with almost un-nerving frequency :-) .. at last! fresh meat for the net! :-) good-luck! ===================================================================== Bill Rankin Bell Labs, Whippany NJ (201) 386-4154 (cornet 232) email address: ...!att!moss!wtr
csimmons@hqpyr1.oracle.UUCP (Charles Simmons) (10/18/88)
In article <1152@mmm.UUCP> schultz@mmm.UUCP (John C Schultz) writes: >Case A) - Software Distribution. > >It would seem that the best cost/performance ratio would occur if removable >media were sized to typical distribution software. I can just see people >paying $50 media costs for 500 KB of data. Even large programs such as GNU >EMACS, TeX, and X11R2 fit on a 45 MB tape with room to spare. WHAT TAKES 256 >MB to distribute?? It is easy to use 256 MB but not with one distribution. Oh >I forgot about the complete works of Shakspeare to which I refer at least >daily :-). >-- > john c. schultz schultz@mmm.3m.UUCP (612) 733-4047 I've been hearing stories about how DEC distributes software. Basically, DEC sends you a read-only compact disk that contains all of their software. If you want a piece of software on the disk, you call up an 800 number at DEC, tell them what you want to buy, and they give you an access code. You then pop the CD in your system, and copy the desired software using the access code. Great stuff. You don't have to wait around for the software to arrive once you decide you want to buy it. Instant Gratification! So, imagine a software publisher acquiring useful pieces of software from a number of programming houses, packaging all the software together on one disk, and distributing the disk... -- Chuck
bob@allosaur.cis.ohio-state.edu (Bob Sutterfield) (10/18/88)
(Note that followups have been redirected to comp.sys.next) In article <530@sactoh0.UUCP> sjrudek@sactoh0.UUCP (Steve J. Rudek) writes: >There are obviously a lot of USENET folks jumping up and down and >salivating because (a) NeXT is offering an "educational discount" and >(b) they are "students" (I surmise). Is it correct to assume that >*individual* students will also be eligible for this price discount? >(If so, I suppose I can always go back to school for a quarter:) That would have to depend upon the deal that NeXT has made with your local University computer store. There are certain restrictions and qualifications on just what sort of student can buy Macintoshes through OSU, for instance, though I don't know the exact terms. Besides that, they can't ramp up production fast enough to satisfy that kind of demand, so the cubes are being sold to carefully selected departments and projects that can make them shine. Individual students may have to wait. >I keep hearing that MACH is *derived* from UNIX -- and, in one >previous message, that the new release of the OS will be free from >AT&T licensing. This, to me, raises the obvious question: is MACH a >*complete* UNIX clone? Does it include basically *all* the utility >programs that come pretty much standard with AT&T/BSD UNIX? No, Mach is just 4.3BSD, with no SysVisms thrown in (that I know of). A Mach machine is one of the purest 4.3 systems you can find any more from a commercial UNIX producer, since they're all mixing in varying amounts of SysV in various ways. In fact, FSF says that the Mach group is working hard on removing any residual code that's still subject to the SysV license, so that FSF can use Mach in GNU. See the ongoing discussion in gnu.announce. >Just how (a) buggy and (b) compatible can we expect it to be? (a) They took CMU's Mach and "commercialized" it, removing a lot of the parochialisms found in CMU's distribution, like a dependence upon a printer named "third" because all the printers in Science Hall are on the third floor. They also cleaned up a lot of bugs. I don't know how much they're feeding back to the Mach group at CMU, but I understand they're in close communication, which will help all the other Mach port vendors as well (BBN, Encore, FSF, etc.) (b) If you had a VAX running Mach, you could run a 4.3 VAX binary on it. How much more compatible do you want? See the ongoing discussion in comp.sys.next. -=- Zippy sez, --Bob Are you still an ALCOHOLIC?
bob@allosaur.cis.ohio-state.edu (Bob Sutterfield) (10/18/88)
(Note that followups have been redirected to comp.sys.next) In article <1152@mmm.UUCP> schultz@mmm.UUCP (John C Schultz) writes: >Disk shuffling will still be a problem, escpecially if people >implement 100+ networks of NeXT machines, each of which need to be >backed up. Gaak! You're still thinking in personal computer terms, not workstation terms. Remember, this machine is for a University's networked workstation environnment. It's not intended for the home market! That's not snobbishness, it's a marketing choice. The reason the thing has no Winchester by default is (a) it makes more sense as a diskfree workstation talking over the network to a NFS file server (local / and /usr are *hard* to administer in the 100's); and (b) so that the appropriate amount of Winchester storage can be added in the case that someone needs to configure one as a server or the very occasional standalone. In this environment, the optifloppy is used for software distribution. If a NeXT machine is a server, it can be used for dump or rdump. Usually, though, dumps will be done to a central server's 1/2" tape drive. The optifloppy on an individual workstation in a lab will be used the same way students use magfloppies on Macintoshes now: to carry around their personal work in their backpacks from lab to lab. -=- Zippy sez, --Bob I just had a NOSE JOB!!
bob@allosaur.cis.ohio-state.edu (Bob Sutterfield) (10/18/88)
(Note that followups have been redirected to comp.sys.next) In article <34946@clyde.ATT.COM> wtr@moss.UUCP (Bill Rankin) writes: >[ note: assuming bare-bones next-box here. just purchased. nobody >[ yet to ether-up to. just the optical drive. Bad Assumption. The cube isn't being sold into such environments right now: all the first customers will in a workstation/server environment already, and you'll be chugging NFS from a Sun or a Pyramid or whatever in the Computer Science department. If you don't have a server handy, then you'll have a cube configured with a Winchester, possibly as a new server for a small cluster. This is how they'll go into the Dance department. -=- Zippy sez, --Bob I'm not an Iranian!! I voted for Dianne Feinstein!!
steve@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU (Steve DeJarnett) (10/19/88)
In article <530@sactoh0.UUCP> sjrudek@sactoh0.UUCP (Steve J. Rudek) writes: >I keep hearing that MACH is *derived* from UNIX -- and, in one >previous message, that the new release of the OS will be free from >AT&T licensing. This, to me, raises the obvious question: is MACH >a *complete* UNIX clone? Does it include basically *all* the utility >programs that come pretty much standard with AT&T/BSD UNIX? Just >how (a) buggy and (b) compatible can we expect it to be? There >are LOTS of UNIX clones already out there (e.g., Coherent, Idris, >Minix) but there are significant reasons why most of us prefer the >real thing. Mach (as it stands now) is the 4.3BSD release of Unix with the concepts that Mach provides (multiple threads of execution, and others I can't seem to remember right now) woven into it. The idea (for the future -- maybe with the next release) is (or was last time I checked) to remove the particular OS kernel from Mach (in this case 4.3BSD) and make Mach just be a small, compact system that supports Operating System kernels as pseudo user processes, and you could boot different kernels and (possibly) file systems and run them under Mach. This could lead to people being able to up 4.3, play some games, read news, etc., then shut down 4.3, boot up VMS, and start working on some report just as your boss walks back in to see what you're working on. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Steve DeJarnett | Smart Mailers -> steve@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU | | Computer Systems Lab | Dumb Mailers -> ..!ucbvax!voder!polyslo!steve | | Cal Poly State Univ. |------------------------------------------------| | San Luis Obispo, CA 93407 | BITNET = Because Idiots Type NETwork | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
csimmons@hqpyr1.oracle.UUCP (Charles Simmons) (10/19/88)
In article <4005@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> wrs@pupthy.PRINCETON.EDU (William R. Somsky) writes: >In article <449@oracle.UUCP> csimmons@oracle.UUCP (Charles Simmons) writes: >> So far I've heard three objections to the design of te NeXT machine, >> and I'm wondering just how valid the objections are. The first objection >> is that the machine doesn't have a floppy drive for software distribution. >> ... >> It seems to me that the people who raise these objections aren't considering >> the type of environment that the NeXT machine was designed to run in. >> Certainly, these would be valid criticims if the NeXT machine was >> designed to be a standalone PC. However, the NeXT machine comes >> equipped with Ethernet capability, and most people will want to attach >> their machine to a network. ... > >Well, I had had the feeling that the NeXT machine was supposed to be >designed so that the STUDENTS could own them. (I got this impression >from Jobs himself when he made a stop here in Princeton some time ago >(~1 year?). They arranged a lunch for him with about 20 students so >he could meet with us and get our input. I was one of two grad students >there.) >... >That also brings up another point, the $6500 price tag, *academic*. >... >If the students are going to own these, they'll have them in their dorm >rooms, and they almost definitely WILL be run as standalone PC's. I know >of one campus (Iowa State University) that has wired their dorm rooms with >a second phone line for future data communications use, and there are probably >more, but I doubt that ANYONE in the near future will be wiring their dorms >with full ethernet capability, file servers and extra tape/disk drives for >loading data. In a DEPARTMENTAL context, I can see the use of these machines >in a fully networked environment, but then it'll be the professors who have >the individual machines, possibly a FEW grad students (but not likely), and >a couple machines for general undergrad use. But that's not terribly >different from the way things are now with undergrad access to campus >machines, and quite different from what I thought Jobs had been wanting >to push: EACH student having their OWN machine. >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >William R. Somsky Physics Dept ; Princeton Univ Two items: First, I have to agree that $6500 is too much for a student. I suspect that initially, the NeXT machine will primarily be sold to schools for use in computer science, math, and other science departments, as well as for use in public terminal clusters. The second issue deals with the environment in which the box will be used. William Somsky argues that the machine would tend to be used as a standalone PC. I argue that the machine would be used as a networked workstation. Now, obviously, if we concede that the price tag on the box is too high to sell the box to substantial numbers of individuals, then it becomes highly likely that the machine will be primarily used in networked environements. But I want to attempt more of a philosophical argument. So, assume we are talking about a box with the capabilities of the NeXT machine, but with a $2000 price tag. My first point is that most commentators on the machine have been thinking of the machine as a standalone PC. In particular, commentators complain about the lack of a floppy disk drive for software distribution. Clearly, if we examine the NeXT machine using the mindframe with which we would approach a Macintosh, then the lack of a floppy drive is a major problem. But I believe that Steve Jobs has a little more vision than this. Jobs realizes that networked environments are becoming increasingly common and increasingly important. So he designed a machine that would easily integrate into existing networks. Further, Jobs realizes that machines that can interact with a network are more useful than machines that stand by themselves. In a networked environment, both data sharing and resource sharing (printers, tape drives, compute servers) are simplified. Additionally, in a networked environment which contains file servers and dedicated operators to perform backups, users don't need to worry about backing up their own data. Many colleges (especially those colleges which are at the forefront of computing) have realized the importance of networked environments, and are implementing networked environments. For example, Dartmouth College has wired most of its dormatories and fraternities with AppleTalk to create a campus-wide network. Portions of the network are implemented using Ethernet. File servers are being implemented at strategic locations on campus to allow data to be close to the users of the data. (Putting a file server in every dorm would probably be a little excessive.) In this type of environment, it becomes possible to view a Macintosh as a networked workstation rather than a standalone PC. To summarize, in terms of visions of the future, I see Jobs as encouraging us to stop looking at entry level computers as standalone PCs, and begin thinking of them as networked workstations. I believe that colleges, as they realize the importance of a networked environment, will wire their dorms with Ethernet, or better yet, fiber optics. Obviously, this vision of the future won't become reality until the NeXT machine becomes quite a bit less expensive, colleges develop an understanding of the importance of networked machines, and fiber optic technology becomes more accessible. -- Chuck
terryl@tekcrl.CRL.TEK.COM (10/19/88)
In article <34946@clyde.ATT.COM> wtr@moss.UUCP (Bill Rankin) writes: >assumption: mach is somewhat similar to unix in it's use of disk >swapping and paging. Bad assumption. MACH does not use the standard 4.2/4.3 method of swapping/paging; MACH pages directly to a mounted file system. It allocates inodes on the fly and then writes the pages out as part of a regular file (but does not mark the inode as a regular file; it's marked as an unknown type, in case the system crashes and fsck can easily detect these unreferenced files and remove them as unneeded...). As a side effect of this method of paging, one no longer needs a separate partition for paging. One can make the whole disk one big hairy parti- tion.... >i really don't think it's a good idea to un-mount (or the mach >equivolent) the one and only filesystem. remember, this is not >mush-dos. we just (probably) can't pop the OD out any old time we >want to and plug in the new one. nor can we eat up all the memory >with a big fat juicey ram-disk without crashing the system. >(remember we need program *and* swap space) > >i wellcome pointers on mach internals, etc... any mach gurus >reading? Well, since MACH is binary compatible with 4.3 BSD, the MACH equivalent is unmount. But you're right about mounting/unmounting the one and only file system. If the floptical (love that word!! (-:) drive is the only drive, you can't easily swap disks like the Mac... Boy Do I Hate Inews !!!! !!!!
sewilco@datapg.MN.ORG (Scot E Wilcoxon) (10/20/88)
BYTE magazine arrived in the mail yesterday. NeXT is on the cover, and the
article answers most of the questions asked here. I'm sure much of the
rest of the industry press will shortly supply more facts about NeXT.
(Now I can Kill this subject...)
(Oh, you want some answers? The present version of NeXT Mach crashes when
the disk is removed, but the next version should at least allow copying. All
the logic is on the CPU board, and future O/S versions will allow
multiprocessing. A second optical drive is <$1,500.)
--
Scot E. Wilcoxon sewilco@DataPg.MN.ORG {amdahl|hpda}!bungia!datapg!sewilco
Data Progress UNIX masts & rigging +1 612-825-2607
I'm just reversing entropy while waiting for the Big Crunch.dorn@fabscal.UUCP (Alan Dorn Hetzel) (10/20/88)
Re: software installation with 1 disk drive.
1) DEC has a similar problem with RC25 based Microvax-II systems,
the disk had a 25Mb fixed section, and a 25Mb removable section,
but they shared a common spindle. To load a removable disk, you
had to spin down the system disk as well. They fixed the problem
by teaching VMS to understand extended absence of the system disk.
It essentially just tapped its feet and waited for you to give it
the disk back.
2) Since the NeXT has 8Mb of main memory, it is probably practical to
have a disk copy/installation utility which pages all nonessential
code out, lock itself in memory, and then performs the copy using
all spare memory as a buffer. Agreed, this would really suck for
copying a full disk, but the average installation could probably be
done in 1-3 passes.
Opinions: ?
Dornjmunkki@kampi.hut.fi (Juri Munkki) (10/21/88)
In article <34946@clyde.ATT.COM> wtr@moss.UUCP (Bill Rankin) writes: >there are two solutions: (that are realistic) > >a) ether-net. but only if you don't need that disk > for swap space. >b) use a hardrive as a root filesystem. keep your swap > space here too, to increase speed. >c) tape drive. You could also write special boot disk that would not boot unix, but a program that is capable of copying files from one laserdisk to another. You could then use most of the 8MB (possibly even 8MB, if you use the 256KB video-RAM) to copy the files. Of course it might be possible to write a program that stops all other processes for a while, makes sure that it has all the RAM in the machine and then enable the user to make the copies. Remember: Just because a machine comes with Unix as the standard operating system doesn't mean that you can't run anything else on it. You might even be able to prepare NeXT mach for the removal of the main storage device in the same way that a Mac handles removing floppies. A Mac also has to be able to read/write to/from the system disk at any time. _._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._ | Juri Munkki jmunkki@hut.fi jmunkki@fingate.bitnet I Want Ne | | Helsinki University of Technology Computing Centre My Own XT | ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~ P.S. Everyone knows that booting a unix box in order to do something is not a good idea. Please do not reply to this article if you don't have anything constructive to say. My guess is that NeXT mach knows (or will know) how to handle an "ejected" disk. _._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._ | Juri Munkki jmunkki@hut.fi jmunkki@fingate.bitnet I Want Ne | | Helsinki University of Technology Computing Centre My Own XT | ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) (10/23/88)
In article <cXKWIpy00imL4FQUco@cs.cmu.edu> dpm@cs.cmu.edu (David Maynard) writes: >I think the high price tag IS a real barrier to student sales. If you add up >the component costs though, it would be REALLY hard to build a $3K workstation. >The 68030 isn't cheap. Memory prices are still pretty high when you want 1Mbit >parts, and hi-res monitors cost a pretty penny... The hi-res monitor prices are a problem. The other two problems you mention can be solved by simply using the last generation of parts rather than the current one. Really, guys, there is no law of nature that says you have to have a 68030 and 1Mb RAMs to have a useful workstation. -- The meek can have the Earth; | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology the rest of us have other plans.|uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu
henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) (10/23/88)
In article <wXKEfiy00jcqR5NFAS@cs.cmu.edu> dpm@cs.cmu.edu (David Maynard) writes: >... Sun re-wrote a large percentage of the kernel for SunOS 4.0 >and peole don't question whether SunOS is still "UNIX." Speak for yourself. -- The meek can have the Earth; | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology the rest of us have other plans.|uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu