phipps@garth.UUCP (Clay Phipps) (01/14/89)
In article <248@vlsi.ll.mit.edu> young@vlsi.ll.mit.edu (George Young) writes: >...a new kind of computer memory unit -- >something we hope might fill in the present gap in memory speed and price >between magnetic disk and ram. >...resulting in access time of maybe ~10 microseconds. >So we are left with a box that is: > capacity of a few hundred megabytes, > word addressable, > much faster access than disk, > much slower than ram, > and around the same price as disk. >It also should be smaller, lighter, and more rugged than disk. Sounds to me like a lot of what bubble memory was expected in the late 1970s to be able to be used for. Bubble memory is nonvolatile. I was convinced then that by now, computer users would be carrying around bubble-memory cartridges encased in epoxy (or the like) the way people now carry floppy disks around. The price may not have been right at the time, but technology advances were expected to take care of that. The major concern, as I recall, was that in the late 1970s, the error rate for bubbles was decimal orders of magnitude worse than disks. And disks kept getting better and better. What ever happened to bubble memory, anyhow ? -- [The foregoing may or may not represent the position, if any, of my employer] Clay Phipps {ingr,pyramid,sri-unix!hplabs}!garth!phipps Intergraph APD, 2400#4 Geng Road, Palo Alto, CA 93403 415/494-8800
friedl@vsi.COM (Stephen J. Friedl) (01/15/89)
In article <2409@garth.UUCP>, phipps@garth.UUCP (Clay Phipps) writes: > > Bubble memory is nonvolatile. [...] > > The major concern, as I recall, was that in the late 1970s, > the error rate for bubbles was decimal orders of magnitude > worse than disks. And disks kept getting better and better. > > What ever happened to bubble memory, anyhow ? [warning: vague memory alert here. It's been a while...] I worked on a bubble memory system back when I was at Telxon and Intel was in the bubble memory business. Their controller was not so hard to use, but remember that bubbles are not random- access. Bubble memories are organized as lots of circular storage loops, and an electromagnet embedded in the bubble unit shifts all the loops around in step with a clock. _____ your data here _|_ / \ _________________________________ | |__/ \ | | \_________________________________/ | | _________________________________ | |__/ \ | | \______________________A__________/ | | ~ ~ _________________________________ | |__/ \ | | \_________________________________/ \___/ transfer storage loops loop (I don't know if these are the right terms, but I'll use them assuming they are). For example, to get the data marked "A" above, you shift all the loops around until A is at the transfer point, and then move the data to the transfer loop. Then rotate the transfer loop around until your data is at the output point, a bit at a time (the controller turned it into a byte stream). There were lots and lots of loops -- hundreds or thousands -- and they all had synchronization patterns embedded so you could find the "start" of the loop in case you powered down in the middle of a rotation. These are easiest to use if you pick some pagesize that is probably related to the number of storage loops, so that each bit in your page goes in a different loop, but I'm really unsure about this. The bubble memories themselves were about an inch and a half square, maybe a quarter inch thick, and they had a heavy case that held the magnet. The controller took a lot of power (I think it was NMOS), as did the bipolar drivers. I believe that bubble memories are inherently rad-hard, but not necessarily the controller chips. I really don't believe, though, that they were "decimal orders of magnitude" less reliable than disks (Clay *did* say late 70's, and my use was in 1981). If anything, I would guess it's the other way around. Texas Instruments and Hitachi (and maybe others) had bubble chipsets, but I know nothing about them. Intel spun off/sold their bubble unit to another company, I think something like Magnesys, and I think they are in Sacramento. We never went ahead with the project because CMOS static RAM was coming down in price, and the power requirements for the bubbles was just to onerous for a handheld unit. Too bad, I was really getting into my little 8051 design lab :-(. After that, I started writing compilers and it marked the end of my hardware career -- double :-(. I'm really digging deep to come up with this info. Anybody out there remember better than me? Flames are welcome if you must. Steve -- Stephen J. Friedl 3B2-kind-of-guy friedl@vsi.com V-Systems, Inc. I speak for me only attmail!vsi!friedl Santa Ana, CA USA +1 714 545 6442 {backbones}!vsi!friedl ---------Nancy Reagan on Hawaiian musicians: "Just say Ho"--------
king@client2.dciem.dnd.ca (Stephen King) (01/16/89)
In article <2409@garth.UUCP> phipps@garth.UUCP (Clay Phipps) writes: > >The price may not have been right at the time, but >technology advances were expected to take care of that. >The major concern, as I recall, was that in the late 1970s, >the error rate for bubbles was decimal orders of magnitude >worse than disks. And disks kept getting better and better. > >What ever happened to bubble memory, anyhow ? Intel sold its bubble stuff to MemTech, who are still in business. I started with bubbles a few years ago and read that the error rate was (is) orders of magnitude BETTER than hard discs. Anyway, I built an S-100 interface for 2 fixed bubbles and a removeable pack to replace an old 8" disc drive. The equipment still performs flawlessly after several years of being kicked half way around the world and back (quite literally). I think that the only other player in the bubble world is Fujitsu, although there is a Canadian company (Ottawa area) that still markets bubble systems. One thing is for sure: seek times and data rate are MUCH faster than floppies. -- {utzoo|mnetor}!dciem!zorac!dretor!king or king%dretor@zorac.dciem.dnd.ca Stephen J King =-= DCIEM Human Factors Division =-= (416) 635-2149
jhunt@omews3.intel.com (Jim Hunt) (01/17/89)
In article <1012@vsi.COM> friedl@vsi.COM (Stephen J. Friedl) writes: >In article <2409@garth.UUCP>, phipps@garth.UUCP (Clay Phipps) writes: >> >> Bubble memory is nonvolatile. [...] >> (stuff deleted) >> What ever happened to bubble memory, anyhow ? > >[warning: vague memory alert here. It's been a while...] > >I worked on a bubble memory system back when I was at Telxon and >Intel was in the bubble memory business. > >(bunch of mostly correct info on Intel bubble architecture deleted) > Boy, this brings back memories ... the first project I worked on out of school was the sense amp & controller circuits for Intel's 1 Mb bubble chip ... But that's not to the point. Bubbles suffered from cost/bit deficiencies compared to mechanical magnetic media (i.e., Winchester disks), nor did they compare well in access times. Error rates were not a major problem. Not being able to compete in the mass storage market (high cost, medium performance == no customers) limited them to relatively small niche markets, particularly harsh environment type applications. Bubbles are still around but you have to look hard for them. The packages got a lot smaller when the 4 Mb chips came out. Anybody know if anyone is producing a 16 Mb bubble yet? Strictly my own opinions here, the company disavows any knowledge of me. Jim Hunt Intel Corp.
kds@blabla.intel.com (Ken Shoemaker) (01/18/89)
Another thing that needs to be said about bubble memories was that they (at
least the ones I worked with) had rather slow transfer times.
------------
I've decided to take George Bush's advice and watch his press conferences
with the sound turned down... -- Ian Shoales
Ken Shoemaker, Microprocessor Design, Intel Corp., Santa Clara, California
uucp: ...{hplabs|decwrl|pur-ee|hacgate|oliveb}!intelca!mipos3!kdskleinman@hplabsz.HPL.HP.COM (Bruce Kleinman) (01/19/89)
+------- | > What ever happened to bubble memory, anyhow ? | [ stuff from other sources deleted ] | | But that's not to the point. | [ lots of completely valid reasons deleted ] | Strictly my own opinions here, the company disavows any knowledge of me. | | Jim Hunt | Intel Corp. +------- The company (Intel) disavowed any knowledge of bubble memories, as well. The 1 Mbit and 4 Mbit products were cancelled with *zero* advance notification to customers. This sort of thing does not do wonders for bubble's reputation.
king@client2.dciem.dnd.ca (Stephen King) (01/20/89)
In article <2816@hplabsz.HPL.HP.COM> kleinman@hplabsz.UUCP (Bruce Kleinman) writes: >The company (Intel) disavowed any knowledge of bubble memories, as well. The >1 Mbit and 4 Mbit products were cancelled with *zero* advance notification to >customers. This sort of thing does not do wonders for bubble's reputation. Yeah. Does even less for Intel's reputation. Prior to this, bubble memory was the only Intel product I could use without feeling ill. Need I mention that these are (only) my opinions? -- {utzoo|mnetor}!dciem!zorac!dretor!king or king%dretor@zorac.dciem.dnd.ca Stephen J King =-= DCIEM Human Factors Division =-= (416) 635-2149
bpendlet@esunix.UUCP (Bob Pendleton) (01/21/89)
> What ever happened to bubble memory, anyhow ?
This weeks Aviation Week & Space Technology magazine has a three page
article on a company called Magnesys that manufactures a Bubble memory
system that mimics a 5.25 inch 720K floppy disk drive. The "drive"
costs around $600 and each Bubble memory cartridge costs around $500
in large quantities.
Bob P.
--
Bob Pendleton, speaking only for myself.
UUCP Address: decwrl!esunix!bpendlet or utah-cs!esunix!bpendlet
Reality is what you make of it.tiwary@hpsrli.HP.COM (Ashutosh Tiwary) (01/21/89)
BTW, does any one still use bubbles. I would suspect that between EEPROMs, cheap RAM (?) and reliable magnetic/optical media, there would'nt be much demand for them any more. Any ideas what it is used in these days? - Ashutosh Tiwary tiwary%hpnmd@hp-sde.hp.com
olson@anchor.SGI.COM (Dave Olson) (01/22/89)
Yes, they are are still used; see the 16 Jan 89 Aviation Week and Space Tech. Magnesys is selling 'drives' with 720Kbyte cartridges using bubble memory (note that the capacity is the same as 96tpi 5 1/4" floppies). It's going to be used by the military in a battlefield terminal system with a winchester disk for primary storage. The price given was ~$700 for the drive and $500 for each 720K cartridge. -- Dave Olson It's important to keep an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out. -- Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
curry@garth.UUCP (Ray Curry) (01/25/89)
The last I heard, one of the Japanese manufacturers had bought up the remaining US product line and was producing them. Bubbles were never competitive in size, cost, or speed, but were desireable where ruggedness to shock and radiation were desireable (or electrostatic shock). NSC's group had a very nice looking cartridge in the lines of an Atari game cartridge. I think Fujitsu had something similar.