reiter@babbage.harvard.edu (Ehud Reiter) (11/26/89)
Two comments on Killer Micros vs Mainframes: (1) For large systems, computer cost is often just a small part of total cost. Suppose, say, that corporate buyer X noticed that a $100K Killer Micro had equivalent compute power to the $1M mainframe he was considering. This sounds like a dramatic savings. But, when the buyer adds in the $5M he's going to spend on peripherals, software, building costs, etc, he's looking at a system cost of $5.1M for the Killer Micros, vs $6M for the mainframe. It's a savings, but not nearly as dramatic a one - and considering that a bad computer system could cost his company $10M+ in lost business, one could forgive the buyer for being cautious. (2) Mainframe operating systems (e.g. MVS) are much superior to Killer Micro OS's (inevitably a UNIX variant) in terms of reliability, security, error recovery and the like, and also make far better use of that $5M worth of peripherals. Sure, programming under MVS is a nightmare (I've done it), and most programmers would probably prefer to write UNIX code. But, from an end-user's perspective, MVS has a lot of advantages, and the above-mentioned corporate buyer is unlikely to move to a Killer Micro system until such a system has a competitive OS. Killer Micros will make headway, but it will be slow headway. It's taken DEC 20 years to go from supplying well-regarded small scientific computers (e.g. PDP-8's) to *starting* to supply corporate data centers, and I suspect Killer Micros face the same kind of timescale. Ehud Reiter reiter@harvard (ARPA,BITNET,UUCP) reiter@harvard.harvard.EDU (new ARPA)
schow@bcarh61.bnr.ca (Stanley T.H. Chow) (11/26/89)
In article <3257@husc6.harvard.edu> reiter@harvard.harvard.edu () writes: > >(2) Mainframe operating systems (e.g. MVS) are much superior to Killer Micro >OS's (inevitably a UNIX variant) in terms of reliability, security, error >recovery and the like, and also make far better use of that $5M worth of >peripherals. Sure, programming under MVS is a nightmare (I've done it), >and most programmers would probably prefer to write UNIX code. But, from >an end-user's perspective, MVS has a lot of advantages, and the above-mentioned >corporate buyer is unlikely to move to a Killer Micro system until such a >system has a competitive OS. > Boy, this is most likely a mega-flame starter. I have found that there are few issues that can generate as much flames as RICS vs CICS. The most notable is Unix vs anything. You not only said "Killer Micros" won't kick ass in the real world, you also said Unix is not as good as MVS. I hope you have a really thick asbestas suit. :-) Well, at least you didn't get into the language wars or the editor wars. :-) BTW, I happen to agree your accessments but the Killer Micros do have their places in some scientific computing jobs. Stanley Chow BitNet: schow@BNR.CA BNR UUCP: ..!psuvax1!BNR.CA.bitnet!schow (613) 763-2831 ..!utgpu!bnr-vpa!bnr-rsc!schow%bcarh61 Me? Represent other people? Don't make them laugh so hard.
mcdonald@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu (11/26/89)
>Killer Micros will make headway, but it will be slow headway. It's taken >DEC 20 years to go from supplying well-regarded small scientific >computers (e.g. PDP-8's) to *starting* to supply corporate data centers, >and I suspect Killer Micros face the same kind of timescale. This must show something about the mentality of corporate data centers. DEC is now trying to sell VAX's to those folks. The first VAX, and the first version or two of VMS were very nice. Later ones keep getting worse and worse - harder to use, slower (the software is slower), and MUCH less cost effective relative to the rest of the marketplace. We used to like DEC around here, but now their salesperson gets laughed out of the room! You are implying that corporate data centers will buy Killer Micros just as they are replaced for everybody else by something better! Doug McDonald
roy@phri.nyu.edu (Roy Smith) (11/26/89)
In article <46500089@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu> mcdonald@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu writes: >> It's taken DEC 20 years [...] *starting* to supply corporate data centers, > This must show something about the mentality of corporate data centers. It has always been a truism that nobody ever got fired for buying IBM. It's probably true today that nobody ever gets fired for buying DEC. To most people in corporate America, making any kind of decision (from which million dollar mainframe to buy to which brand of toilet paper should go in the executive john) means taking the path which is least likely to get you fired. -- Roy Smith, Public Health Research Institute 455 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016 {att,philabs,cmcl2,rutgers,hombre}!phri!roy -or- roy@alanine.phri.nyu.edu "The connector is the network"
bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) (11/28/89)
> It has always been a truism that nobody ever got fired for buying >IBM. It's probably true today that nobody ever gets fired for buying DEC. >To most people in corporate America, making any kind of decision (from >which million dollar mainframe to buy to which brand of toilet paper should >go in the executive john) means taking the path which is least likely to >get you fired. >-- >Roy Smith, Public Health Research Institute I assume everyone realizes that phrase is not a bit of quaint advice but a salesperson's threat to a customer wandering from the fold? I didn't think so. But it's rather disgusting, up there with Tex Antoine's infamous "lay back and enjoy it" advice to rape victims. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die, Purveyors to the Trade | bzs@world.std.com 1330 Beacon St, Brookline, MA 02146, (617) 739-0202 | {xylogics,uunet}world!bzs
paulr@mips.COM (Paul Richardson) (11/28/89)
In article <1989Nov27.171937.9661@world.std.com> bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes: > >> It has always been a truism that nobody ever got fired for buying >>IBM. It's probably true today that nobody ever gets fired for buying DEC. >>To most people in corporate America, making any kind of decision (from >>which million dollar mainframe to buy to which brand of toilet paper should >>go in the executive john) means taking the path which is least likely to >>get you fired. >>-- >>Roy Smith, Public Health Research Institute > >I assume everyone realizes that phrase is not a bit of quaint advice >but a salesperson's threat to a customer wandering from the fold? > >I didn't think so. But it's rather disgusting, up there with Tex >Antoine's infamous "lay back and enjoy it" advice to rape victims. >-- > -Barry Shein > Yeah, and the Emperor is wearing new clothes too ! /pgr -- /pgr I don't want to work,I just want to bang on the drums all day - T Rundgren {ames,prls,pyramid,decwrl}!mips!paulr or paulr@mips.com
roy@phri.nyu.edu (Roy Smith) (11/28/89)
Me: > nobody ever got fired for buying IBM. > To most people in corporate America, making any kind of decision [...] > means taking the path which is least likely to get you fired. In <1989Nov27.171937.9661@world.std.com> bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein): > I assume everyone realizes that phrase is not a bit of quaint advice > but a salesperson's threat to a customer wandering from the fold? I meant it as neither advice nor threat, simply as an observation on the state of the world, as I percieve it. People make safe decisions, with more regard to immediate loss prevention and short-term profit than to long term goals. Were this not true, the American Computer Industry would find some way to prevent the Perken-Elmer/Nikon deal. Were this not true, companies like Sun would be jumping all over each other to get in on the ground floor of rebuilding the American DRAM industry. Were this not true, the Giants wouldn't be playing their damn "prevent" defense! -- Roy Smith, Public Health Research Institute 455 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016 {att,philabs,cmcl2,rutgers,hombre}!phri!roy -or- roy@alanine.phri.nyu.edu "The connector is the network"