tbray@watsol.waterloo.edu (Tim Bray) (08/09/90)
mash@mips.COM (John Mashey) writes: >jesup@cbmvax (Randell Jesup) writes: >>Few machines >>(percentage-wise) even have 4 GB of storage, let alone files larger that 4GB >>(I've never even seen a file larger than 100MB, even on mainframes). >However, I'd STRONGLY disagree with the idea that 64-bit machines will >remain confined to the super- & minisuper world for 10-20 more years. >So, here's a thought to stimulate discussion: > What applications (outside the scientific / MCAD ones that > can obviously consume the space) would benefit from 64-bit > machines? An example: text database. In a textbase, you must have addressability to the byte, not to the record. Also, it is very very convenient to regard all the text in your universe as being in one linear address space. 32 bits worth of text is not very much text in real-world terms. Here is some 'ls' output from a directory containing the electronic Oxford English Dictionary, Second Edition, and some supporting files. -r--r----- 1 tbray 572728830 Sep 7 1989 oed-2e -r--r----- 1 tbray 179728816 Sep 7 1989 oed-2e.struct -r--r----- 1 tbray 475589360 Sep 8 1989 oed-2e.tree About 28 bits worth right there. But I want a database with the OED and the complete Shakespeare and Chemical Abstracts and the complete Library of Congress Catalogue and a couple decades' worth of AP wire service; that's almost enough text to be really useful. But seriously folks, there's lots of insurance companies and research institutions and government departments with *lots* more than 4 Gb sitting around... And I think it's a *bad* idea, as some have proposed, to create a new datatype for file offsets as opposed to addresses as opposed to integers. As Henry Spencer and others have repeatedly pointed out, the VAX made us all sloppy by allowing us to interchange pointers, integers, and offsets promiscuously. But too late, we're stuck with it; there's not enough programmer-years in the lifetime of the universe to fix all the useful software that does this. And y'know, in my heart of hearts, I'm not sure it's a bad thing; it certainly allows the use of some extremely elegant and rigorously simple programming paradigms. Cheers, Tim Bray, Open Text Systems, Waterloo, Ont.
davidsen@crdos1.crd.ge.COM (Wm E Davidsen Jr) (08/09/90)
In article <1990Aug8.222644.23683@watdragon.waterloo.edu> tbray@watsol.waterloo.edu (Tim Bray) writes: | And I think it's a *bad* idea, as some have proposed, to create a new datatype | for file offsets as opposed to addresses as opposed to integers. However, X3J11 didn't agree with that idea, and there is a type for offset in a file, and pointer types are not the same as integers. | As Henry | Spencer and others have repeatedly pointed out, the VAX made us all sloppy by | allowing us to interchange pointers, integers, and offsets promiscuously. But | too late, we're stuck with it; there's not enough programmer-years in the | lifetime of the universe to fix all the useful software that does this. Actually, since there are a lot of machines which have hardware which functions using a diferent paradigm then the VAX, a lot of old software has been upgraded, and most new compilers generate warnings which encourage programmers to write portable code. Commercial software is being written more portably to allow use in more markets. | And | y'know, in my heart of hearts, I'm not sure it's a bad thing; it certainly | allows the use of some extremely elegant and rigorously simple programming | paradigms. Absolutely no comment. -- bill davidsen (davidsen@crdos1.crd.GE.COM -or- uunet!crdgw1!crdos1!davidsen) "Stupidity, like virtue, is its own reward" -me
zenith-steven@cs.yale.edu (Steven Ericsson Zenith) (08/10/90)
In article <1990Aug8.222644.23683@watdragon.waterloo.edu>, tbray@watsol.waterloo.edu (Tim Bray) writes: |> An example: text database. In a textbase, you must have addressability to the |> byte, not to the record. Also, it is very very convenient to regard all the |> text in your universe as being in one linear address space. 32 bits worth of |> text is not very much text in real-world terms. Here is some 'ls' output from |> a directory containing the electronic Oxford English Dictionary, Second |> Edition, and some supporting files. |> |> -r--r----- 1 tbray 572728830 Sep 7 1989 oed-2e |> -r--r----- 1 tbray 179728816 Sep 7 1989 oed-2e.struct |> -r--r----- 1 tbray 475589360 Sep 8 1989 oed-2e.tree Can you explain to us what these files contain and how the data in them is structured/stored/encoded? |> About 28 bits worth right there. But I want a database with the OED and the |> complete Shakespeare and Chemical Abstracts and the complete Library of |> Congress Catalogue and a couple decades' worth of AP wire service; that's |> almost enough text to be really useful. But seriously folks, there's lots of |> insurance companies and research institutions and government departments with |> *lots* more than 4 Gb sitting around... Isn't there a preferable relative means to address your data? - surely it's more extensible and thus you don't have to worry about the limits of word size. Not that I'm arguing for small words - but is linear addressing of data really the burning issue? How do you manage distributed data? I know .. decode the address into smaller components .. so why do you want long words? Why not use several smaller words to construct an address in the first place? I address these comments refering to your particular data set - text. Do you *really* want a means to linearly address the documents you describe? What particular advantage does this give you over the natural decomposition of the data? When we get to spaces this size would some paging mechanism be preferable? -- Steven Ericsson Zenith * email: zenith@cs.yale.edu Fax: (203) 466 2768 | voice: (203) 432 1278 "The tower should warn the people not to believe in it." - P.D.Ouspensky Yale University Dept of Computer Science 51 Prospect St New Haven CT 06520 USA
zenith-steven@cs.yale.edu (Steven Ericsson Zenith) (08/10/90)
Good grief. My last posting ended up looking a real mess. My apologies I shall gripe at the XRN people. -- Steven Ericsson Zenith * email: zenith@cs.yale.edu Fax: (203) 466 2768 | voice: (203) 432 1278 "The tower should warn the people not to believe in it." - P.D.Ouspensky Yale University Dept of Computer Science 51 Prospect St New Haven CT 06520 USA