FC137501@ysub.ysu.edu (Paul M. Mullins) (06/18/91)
TENURE TRACK FACULTY POSITION IN COMPUTER SCIENCE
Youngstown State University invites applications for a vacant tenure
track faculty position in the Department of Mathematical and Computer
Sciences. The Department is located in the School of Arts and Sciences.
The available position is at the rank of Assistant Professor. Salary
range is (up to) $39,000 for a nine-month academic appointment.
Minimum qualifications is a Ph.D. in Computer Science.
Duties may include teaching computer science courses at all levels offered,
elementary through graduate. Faculty are expected to participate in
committee work, student advising, and research.
Starting date: Sept. 15, 1991
Closing date: June 26, 1991, or until position is filled.
Applicants should send (1) a letter of interest, (2) a current resume,
(3) an official copy of a transcript documenting academic qualifications
for this position, and (4) the names, addresses, and telephone numbers
of three references to:
Dr. Albert J. Klein, Chair
Department of Mathematical
and Computer Sciences
Youngstown State University
Youngstown, OH 44555
YSU IS AN AFFIRMATIVE ACTION/EQUAL OPPORTUNITY EMPLOYER.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Youngstown State University is a state-assisted, urban, nonresidential
institution of higher education which primarily serves the students of
a five-county area around Youngstown.
The University has an enrollment of approximately 15,000 (head-count) in
a wide variety of programs ranging from 2-year associate degrees to
graduate programs at the master's level.
Schools and colleges at the University are the College of Applied Science
and Technology, the College of Arts and Sciences, the School of Business
Administration, the School of Engineering, the School of Education, the
College of Fine and Performing Arts, and the Graduate School.
The campus, located north of downtown Youngstown, is compact and carefully
designed, with most of the major structures being new or recently renovated.
(Over $100 million has been devoted to physical plant construction and
renovation during the past fifteen years.)
The city of Youngstown is located midway between Cleveland and Pittsburgh.
The Youngstown-Warren area has a population in excess of 500,000, and offers
the usual amenities of urban living, but few of the problems of the big city.
All types of housing are available within a 30 minute drive of the campus,
and housing costs in Youngstown are significantly lower than in most
metropolitan areas.
The University's full-service faculty, which numbers over 400, is represented
by the University chapter of the Ohio Education Association, which has been
the recognized bargaining agent since 1972.
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The Department of Mathematical and Computer Sciences maintains an Encore
Multimax, 7 Sparc Workstations, a number of PCs, and an X-terminal lab.
The computer science program is centered in Harry Meshel Hall, a high
technology center dedicated in 1986 containing 7 classrooms and 12 labs.
Campus facilities include an Amdahl 5868 Multiprocessor (equivelant to
two IBM 3081 GXs), mainframe terminal labs, 225 IBM PCs, and a campus LAN.
The campus is connected to the Internet and BITNET, and provides access
to the Ohio Supercomputer Center's Cray YMP8/864.robertsw@gtephx.UUCP (Wild Rider) (06/20/91)
In article <91168.172101FC137501@ysub.ysu.edu> FC137501@ysub.ysu.edu (Paul M. Mullins) writes: > > TENURE TRACK FACULTY POSITION IN COMPUTER SCIENCE > >Youngstown State University invites applications for a vacant tenure >track faculty position in the Department of Mathematical and Computer >Sciences. The Department is located in the School of Arts and Sciences. > >The available position is at the rank of Assistant Professor. Salary >range is (up to) $39,000 for a nine-month academic appointment. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >Minimum qualifications is a Ph.D. in Computer Science. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ shouldn't this be posted to rec.humor or submitted to rec.humor.funny? i mean, seriously... a ph.d. in c.s. working for "(up to) $39,000"? well, it sure made _me_ laugh! i'll bet your disk will get swamped with email applications! :-) :-) :-) :-) for the humor-challenged. cheers && good luck in finding a qualified candidate, (ah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha) wr (the wild rider) -- Wallace Roberts, AG (formerly GTE) Communication Systems, Phoenix, AZ UUCP: ...!{ncar!noao!asuvax | uunet!zardoz!hrc | att}!gtephx!robertsw Internet: gtephx!robertsw@asuvax.eas.asu.edu Bike: '82 GS1100L Suz voice: (602)581-4555 fax: (602)582-7624 Cage: '89 Mustang GT
greg@ogre.cica.indiana.edu (Gregory TRAVIS) (06/21/91)
In <1991Jun20.040659.833@gtephx.UUCP> robertsw@gtephx.UUCP (Wild Rider) writes: >In article <91168.172101FC137501@ysub.ysu.edu> FC137501@ysub.ysu.edu >(Paul M. Mullins) writes: >> >>The available position is at the rank of Assistant Professor. Salary >>range is (up to) $39,000 for a nine-month academic appointment. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > shouldn't this be posted to rec.humor or submitted to > rec.humor.funny? i mean, seriously... a ph.d. in c.s. > working for "(up to) $39,000"? well, it sure made _me_ laugh! Please note that the job posted was for a nine-month appointment. $39,000 divided by nine and multiplied by twelve is $52,000. $13K a year is worth it to some people who like to travel and/or do things other than work for a living virtually every day of the year. And I bet the lucky applicant can count on two-three weeks off around Christmas/New Years in addition to the 90 days per year vacation in the summer. Sure, you're probably expected to do research during the other three months. But your boss won't be breathing down your neck every day. Personally I can read a lot of CS books and write a lot of abstracts while I sit on the beach in France. It's also for an Assistant Professor. Promotion to full professor would likely include a salary increase. It doesn't sound like such a bad gig to me. Youngstown's cost of living index isn't the highest in the world you know... greg -- Gregory Reed Travis C I C A Center for Innovative Computing Applications|greg@cica.indiana.edu (work) Indiana University, Bloomington, IN 47405 |frognix!greg@cica.indiana.edu (hm)
thomson@hub.toronto.edu (Brian Thomson) (06/21/91)
In article <greg.677463076@ogre> greg@ogre.cica.indiana.edu (Gregory TRAVIS) writes: >In <1991Jun20.040659.833@gtephx.UUCP> robertsw@gtephx.UUCP (Wild Rider) writes: > >>In article <91168.172101FC137501@ysub.ysu.edu> FC137501@ysub.ysu.edu >>(Paul M. Mullins) writes: >>> >>>The available position is at the rank of Assistant Professor. Salary >>>range is (up to) $39,000 for a nine-month academic appointment. >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >> shouldn't this be posted to rec.humor or submitted to >> rec.humor.funny? i mean, seriously... a ph.d. in c.s. >> working for "(up to) $39,000"? well, it sure made _me_ laugh! > >Please note that the job posted was for a nine-month appointment. >$39,000 divided by nine and multiplied by twelve is $52,000. $13K a year >is worth it to some people who like to travel and/or do things other >than work for a living virtually every day of the year. Hey, I'm in another country, and even *I* know that American colleges expect their faculty to attract research funds to make up the other three months of salary. At most of these places, if you try taking 3 month holidays every summer your job will probably be advertised on the net again in a very short time. -- Brian Thomson, CSRI Univ. of Toronto utcsri!uthub!thomson, thomson@hub.toronto.edu
davidsen@crdos1.crd.ge.COM (Wm E Davidsen Jr) (06/21/91)
In article <1991Jun21.101640.7478@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> thomson@hub.toronto.edu (Brian Thomson) writes: | Hey, I'm in another country, and even *I* know that American colleges | expect their faculty to attract research funds to make up the other | three months of salary. At most of these places, if you try taking | 3 month holidays every summer your job will probably be advertised on the | net again in a very short time. Depends on the school, I guess. I live near a college, and lots of profs are doing other stuff this summer. And friends who live in VT indicate that a reasonable number of profs come up for the whole summer. I realize these may be tenured people, but it's hard to tell. -- bill davidsen (davidsen@crdos1.crd.GE.COM -or- uunet!crdgw1!crdos1!davidsen) GE Corp R&D Center, Information Systems Operation, tech support group Moderator comp.binaries.ibm.pc and 386-users digest. "I admit I am predjudiced, I can't stand bigots." -me
carroll@ssc-vax (Jeff Carroll) (06/22/91)
In article <3455@crdos1.crd.ge.COM> davidsen@crdos1.crd.ge.com (bill davidsen) writes: >In article <1991Jun21.101640.7478@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> thomson@hub.toronto.edu (Brian Thomson) writes: > >| Hey, I'm in another country, and even *I* know that American colleges >| expect their faculty to attract research funds to make up the other >| three months of salary. At most of these places, if you try taking >| 3 month holidays every summer your job will probably be advertised on the >| net again in a very short time. > > Depends on the school, I guess. I live near a college, and lots of >profs are doing other stuff this summer. And friends who live in VT >indicate that a reasonable number of profs come up for the whole summer. >I realize these may be tenured people, but it's hard to tell. If you want a tenure-track job at Youngstown State, you probably want to teach or consult more than you want to publish and become famous. Thus you might decide to go fishing during the summer (unless the cost of living in eastern Ohio is a lot higher than in western Ohio). Or maybe you want to moonlight all the time. Either way I think it's safe to assume that the successful applicant for this job will not be concerned with building a resume that will eventually land him/her on the faculty at CMU or Stanford, and that the administration will expect him/her to be somewhat less prolific than, say, Knuth or Yourdon. -- Jeff Carroll carroll@ssc-vax.boeing.com
kls30@duts.ccc.amdahl.com (Kent L Shephard) (06/25/91)
In article <1991Jun20.040659.833@gtephx.UUCP> robertsw@gtephx.UUCP (Wild Rider) writes: >In article <91168.172101FC137501@ysub.ysu.edu> FC137501@ysub.ysu.edu >(Paul M. Mullins) writes: >> >> TENURE TRACK FACULTY POSITION IN COMPUTER SCIENCE >> >> >>The available position is at the rank of Assistant Professor. Salary >>range is (up to) $39,000 for a nine-month academic appointment. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> >>Minimum qualifications is a Ph.D. in Computer Science. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > shouldn't this be posted to rec.humor or submitted to > rec.humor.funny? i mean, seriously... a ph.d. in c.s. > working for "(up to) $39,000"? well, it sure made _me_ laugh! > > i'll bet your disk will get swamped with email applications! > > :-) :-) :-) :-) for the humor-challenged. > > cheers && good luck in finding a qualified candidate, > (ah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha) > wr (the wild rider) I know this must be a joke. A BSCS and a year of work can get you more than that in Silicon Valley. A Ph.D. in CS should be getting lots, lots more. If not what's the point of going to school that long. >-- >Wallace Roberts, AG (formerly GTE) Communication Systems, Phoenix, AZ >UUCP: ...!{ncar!noao!asuvax | uunet!zardoz!hrc | att}!gtephx!robertsw >Internet: gtephx!robertsw@asuvax.eas.asu.edu Bike: '82 GS1100L Suz >voice: (602)581-4555 fax: (602)582-7624 Cage: '89 Mustang GT -- /* -The opinions expressed are my own, not my employers. */ /* For I can only express my own opinions. */ /* */ /* Kent L. Shephard : email - kls30@DUTS.ccc.amdahl.com */
ward@vlsi.waterloo.edu (Paul Ward) (06/25/91)
In article <c5oR02hB08W801@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> kls30@DUTS.ccc.amdahl.com writes: >In article <1991Jun20.040659.833@gtephx.UUCP> robertsw@gtephx.UUCP (Wild Rider) writes: >>In article <91168.172101FC137501@ysub.ysu.edu> FC137501@ysub.ysu.edu >>(Paul M. Mullins) writes: >>> >>> TENURE TRACK FACULTY POSITION IN COMPUTER SCIENCE >>> >>> >>>The available position is at the rank of Assistant Professor. Salary >>>range is (up to) $39,000 for a nine-month academic appointment. >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>> >>>Minimum qualifications is a Ph.D. in Computer Science. >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >I know this must be a joke. A BSCS and a year of work can get you more >than that in Silicon Valley. A Ph.D. in CS should be getting lots, lots >more. If not what's the point of going to school that long. Well it's nice to know that people have such high motivation for a PhD. You know, I'm disgusted with this whole discussion. Did it ever occur to you that there is more to life than money? Did it ever occur to you that perhaps people might teach for the love of teaching? No, it all comes down to money. So that's why the education system is so f*cked up today. All you smart-a*s*s insist on getting huge salaries. So the average school and university has to have below average instructors. Oh but don't you worry. No, you'll just send your kids to private school. Don't give a damn about the rest of the world. Paul Ward University of Waterloo -- They will say, "As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them." For I will restore them to the land I gave to their forefathers. Jeremiah 16:15
gdtltr@brahms.udel.edu (gdtltr@limbo.org (The Befuddled One)) (06/25/91)
In article <c5oR02hB08W801@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> kls30@DUTS.ccc.amdahl.com writes: => =>I know this must be a joke. A BSCS and a year of work can get you more =>than that in Silicon Valley. A Ph.D. in CS should be getting lots, lots =>more. If not what's the point of going to school that long. Call me naive, but perhaps to learn? While the majority of folks these days seem to be tied to dreams of large sums of money, there are still a few people out there who desire to learn more out of a sense of intellectual curiosity. Personally, I am interested in moving on to a PhD (having recently earned a BS CIS) and I am not terribly interested in the additional salary it would mean. I am more interested in the advanced work itself, such as doing research and possibly teaching. On the other hand, it certainly makes sense that a PhD should make more than a BS. Gary Duzan Time Lord Third Regeneration -- gdtltr@brahms.udel.edu _o_ ---------------------- _o_ [|o o|] To be is to be networked. [|o o|] |_o_| Disclaimer: I have no idea what I am talking about. |_o_|
greg@ogre.cica.indiana.edu (Gregory TRAVIS) (06/25/91)
In <c5oR02hB08W801@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> kls30@duts.ccc.amdahl.com (Kent L Shephard) writes: >In article <1991Jun20.040659.833@gtephx.UUCP> robertsw@gtephx.UUCP (Wild Rider) writes: >>In article <91168.172101FC137501@ysub.ysu.edu> FC137501@ysub.ysu.edu >>(Paul M. Mullins) writes: >>> >>>The available position is at the rank of Assistant Professor. Salary >>>range is (up to) $39,000 for a nine-month academic appointment. >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>> >>>Minimum qualifications is a Ph.D. in Computer Science. >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >I know this must be a joke. A BSCS and a year of work can get you more >than that in Silicon Valley. A Ph.D. in CS should be getting lots, lots >more. If not what's the point of going to school that long. Dunno. Learning? Flexibility? Freedom? Avoidance of a BOSS and the bottom line? Sigh. Bucks, bux, Bucks, bux, $$$$$. Really, is that all there is to living? Anybody want to argue to quality of living in _Youngstown_ versus Silicon Valley? Perhaps there's more culture. On the other hand, you don't have to do five mph. for two hours each way with every other BMW on their way to work. Note that I've never lived in Youngstown but I've chosen the Midwest over SilValley jobs offering $20K more. Thanks, but I've got enough strip malls out here to last a lifetime. Is this what Jefferson meant by the "Gentleman Farmer?" Just another unsolicted opinion from the terminal with the BAD ATTITUDE. Hey, don't worry. The CS job demand is about to hit rock bottom. Can you say "want fries with that?" greg -- Gregory Reed Travis C I C A Center for Innovative Computing Applications|greg@cica.indiana.edu (work) Indiana University, Bloomington, IN 47405 |frognix!greg@cica.indiana.edu (hm)
jbuck@forney.berkeley.edu (Joe Buck) (06/25/91)
In article <1991Jun25.011010.22527@vlsi.waterloo.edu>, ward@vlsi.waterloo.edu (Paul Ward) writes: |> Well it's nice to know that people have such high motivation for a |> PhD. You know, I'm disgusted with this whole discussion. Did it ever |> occur to you that there is more to life than money? Did it ever occur |> to you that perhaps people might teach for the love of teaching? It certainly occurred to me. After all, I left a highly paid career in industry to become a full-time graduate student (modulo a consulting job or two in the summer). This was because something mattered more to me than money. !> No, it all comes down to money. So that's why the education system is so |> f*cked up today. All you smart-a*s*s insist on getting huge salaries. You're confused as to exactly who is being exploitative. Universities offering salaries to PhD's that don't compete with what folks with a BS are paid are being exploitative. To be fair, one can live for far less in Ohio (where the advertisement came from) than in Silicon Valley (where most of the complaints came from). Hell, the monthly mortgage payment on the average newly bought house in many parts of Ohio wouldn't pay the rent on a good studio apartment in Sunnyvale. Given this, the low salary isn't as pitiful as it seems. |> So the average school and university has to have below average |> instructors. Oh but don't you worry. No, you'll just send your kids |> to private school. Don't give a damn about the rest of the world. A certain number of people can make a certain amount of sacrifice, but in the end, if a society does not value education by paying its teachers competitively, (and the US does not) its children will suffer. Followups should probably go somewhere else; soc.college, maybe. -- Joe Buck jbuck@galileo.berkeley.edu {uunet,ucbvax}!galileo.berkeley.edu!jbuck
nather@ut-emx.uucp (Ed Nather) (06/25/91)
In article <1991Jun25.011010.22527@vlsi.waterloo.edu>, ward@vlsi.waterloo.edu (Paul Ward) writes: > > Well it's nice to know that people have such high motivation for a > PhD. You know, I'm disgusted with this whole discussion. Did it ever > occur to you that there is more to life than money? Did it ever occur > to you that perhaps people might teach for the love of teaching? No, > it all comes down to money. So that's why the education system is so > f*cked up today. All you smart-a*s*s insist on getting huge salaries. > SO THE AVERAGE SCHOOL AND UNIVERSITY HAS TO HAVE BELOW AVERAGE > INSTRUCTORS. (emphasis added) Hardly. The average school and university is just deprived of those people who want to make a lot of money. I'm not sure that's such a terrible loss -- it may even be a net gain. I'm not at all sure I'd want them for colleagues.
robertsw@gtephx.UUCP (Wild Rider) (06/27/91)
In article <1991Jun25.023839.15297@agate.berkeley.edu> jbuck@forney.berkeley.edu (Joe Buck) writes: >In article <1991Jun25.011010.22527@vlsi.waterloo.edu>, ward@vlsi.waterloo.edu (Paul Ward) writes: >|> Well it's nice to know that people have such high motivation for a >|> PhD. You know, I'm disgusted with this whole discussion. Did it ever >|> occur to you that there is more to life than money? Did it ever occur >|> to you that perhaps people might teach for the love of teaching? [ ... mucho text sacrificed to appease bandwidth monster ... ] >A certain number of people can make a certain amount of sacrifice, but >in the end, if a society does not value education by paying its teachers >competitively, (and the US does not) its children will suffer. > precisely. that's why i posted the "this must be a joke" response to the original article. just because someone is a professor instead of a s/w engr at some bigbux company doesn't mean they should earn any less $$$. all you who argue that "money ain't everything," kindly listen up: nobody said it was _everything_. i'm just calling for some form of reasonable salary for professors, along with some high standards for them. all those people who are spewing self-righteous sewage like "did it ever occur to you that there is more to life than money" just don't get it. the issue _isn't_ "those money-hogging greedy cs-types;" the issue _is_ one concerning the lack of respect & decent pay for professors. think about it for just one minute, mr. ward: you just received your ph.d. in c.s., & since you pulled a 3.9 gpa, lotsa people want you. a university offers you "(up to) $39k" for a position that looks, well, ok. several bigbux think tanks each offer you $120k, plus a huge research budget, plus a large staff, plus, plus, plus. can i make it any clearer? where do you suppose most of the brilliant minds are going to run off to? don't you think society would be better off if more of those brilliant folks could be persuaded to teach at the university? mr. joe buck's last statement bears _much_ repeating: "A certain number of people can make a certain amount of sacrifice, but in the end, if a society does not value education by paying its teachers competitively, (and the US does not) its children will suffer." > >Followups should probably go somewhere else; soc.college, maybe. > >-- >Joe Buck >jbuck@galileo.berkeley.edu {uunet,ucbvax}!galileo.berkeley.edu!jbuck cheers && good luck to you in your grad studies, mr. buck, wr (the wild rider) -- Wallace Roberts, AG (formerly GTE) Communication Systems, Phoenix, AZ UUCP: ...!{ncar!noao!asuvax | uunet!zardoz!hrc | att}!gtephx!robertsw Internet: gtephx!robertsw@asuvax.eas.asu.edu Bike: '82 GS1100L Suz voice: (602)581-4555 fax: (602)582-7624 Cage: '89 Mustang GT
ward@vlsi.waterloo.edu (Paul Ward) (06/28/91)
In article <1991Jun25.011010.22527@vlsi.waterloo.edu> I wrote: >[A brief diatribe with a lot of cursing about salary] First, I wish to apologize to the net for the volume and ferocity of my original posting. It was a "knee-jerk" reaction. As someone pointed out to me in e-mail, people who curse and swear in their postings shouldn't have Bible quotes in their signature. To anyone offended by my posting, again I am truly sorry. I have no intention of pointing fingers at anyone. That said, I do wish to clarify my comments, hopefully in a more reasoned manner. 1. The original quote I was responding to was: >>I know this must be a joke. A BSCS and a year of work can get you more >>than that in Silicon Valley. A Ph.D. in CS should be getting lots, lots >>more. If not what's the point of going to school that long. This quote implies that the ONLY reason for getting a PhD is for the aditional salary. This is, I believe, very poor motivation. As others have pointed out, there are many other reasons for the acquisition of a PhD: intellectual curiosity, flexibility, etc. 2. I believe that salary should not be a factor in job selection, with the proviso that one receives sufficient for one's needs (eg. it's probably impossible to live in north america on a salary of $5,000 - though I might point out that many tens of thousands of people are forced to do just that; they are called the homeless). My wife and I are currently living comfortably on an income of $25,000 Canadian (that's about $20K American; yes I am a grad student, industry salaries are not that low in Canada, just in case any of you are considering moving up to the Great White North :-). We also give over 10% of our income to charity. It's really quite easy to live on that salary. We just have to determine our needs, as opposed to spending time trying to "keep up with the Jones". I don't know the cost of living in the mid-west, but I suspect that $39K is more than enough to comfortably live on and raise a family. What would I do if I wound up in a job earning $100K or more? I'd save some and I'd use a large portion to help the billions of people in the world who have an annual income closer to $100 pa. 3. Does it help to have a salary of $120K instead of $40K? Basically, no. The reason is simple economics. If people charge $120K for their employment, then corporations must correspondingly raise the selling price of their products. As such, you have to pay more for the things you buy. It's a circle. My father bought an engagement ring for my mother in the late fifties and paid $50 for it. When I got engaged (1989) I paid $750 for the engagement ring. I was earning $32,000. My father was earning $3,000. No tell me, who got the better deal? And before we get on to inflation, no it is not some great evil in and of itself. It's just that it tends to blur the big picture. 4. Is a university that gives $39K being exploitive? Well, first of all, I don't think it is possible for a university to be exploitive in the sense that industry could. Universities are not in it for the profit. By contrast, an company that paid low salaries, and made a large profit could be described as exploitive. That issue aside, if they could, are universities that give $39K for a PhD being exploitive? No, they are simply trying to stretch very limited funds as far as possible. Lets look at their options: a. They could give every PhD they hired was given a salary of $78K. All this does is half their teaching staff (remember they are the equivalent of fixed income people). Now, the class sizes must double, and the quality of education declines. b. They could double or triple tuition to pay for the larger salaries. This has a double problem. First, universities with large tuitions (eg MIT, CMU, etc.) often do not collect those tuitions. They are paper figures. The students can't pay them, so the universities waive the tuitions. The second problem with this is that now people must pay twice as much to get an education. At the very time when people are saying there is a shortage of engineers, tuition goes up and the numbers enrolling in engineering decrease. c. The government could pump more money into education. This has a couple of disadvantages. First it makes universities even more dependent on government. When the government runs out of money, the universities are left with nothing. Second, the government has only one way of getting money - taxes. Oh, sure they can borrow for a while, but eventually they have to pay back. So to start a new thread, what are the options for universities, and for the future of education in north america? I'll start by giving my vision: 1. People should get several years of industry experience before re-entering the academic world as professors. 2. Industry should recognize that it benefits greatly from good quality education, and should be more surportive of universities. (BTW, yes I realize that there is a lot of co-operation in the US, far more than in Canada - I still think that there should be more). With reference to the professors salary of $39K, why doesn't some corporation pay the difference to make that salary closer to industry standards, some corporation that is benefitting from the students that that professor will educate and is currently not paying for. Enough said for now. This is not directly related to computer architecture, but it will be if we don't deal with the implications now. I suggest that the thread might be continued in sci.engr, although I am just as happy to keep it going here too. Paul Ward University of Waterloo PS, that same person who e-mailed me about cursing and Bible quoting also said: "A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger." Prov. 15:1 Again, sorry for my "harsh words" in the original posting. To any who have sent me e-mail and to thoose who posted responses, I hope this helps to clarify my position. If not, please e-mail me at ward@vlsi.waterloo.edu. -- They will say, "As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them." For I will restore them to the land I gave to their forefathers. Jeremiah 16:15