rising@utzoo.uucp (Jim Rising) (01/19/88)
Forced copulations are well documented in waterfowl. A fairly
recent summary is McKinney, Derrickson, and Mineau, "Forced
copulation in waterfowl." Behaviour, 1983 (pp. 250-293). I believe that
I have read that on occasion the male(s) drown the female. By human standards,
that would be against her will. Although it is not a subject about which I
know a great deal, I also know of apparent forced copulations in amphipods,
frogs, anoles, and many different kinds of birds and mammals. I suspect
that it occurs, at least occasionally, in any species in which the males have
an intromittant organ, or amphexis occurs. I suspect that it is generally
misdirected and ineffective reproductive behavior of no adaptive significance
to males--but that would have to be studied.
In humans females sometimes become pregnant as a consequence of rape. Thus,
it is potentially selectively advantageous for males to rape. If there is
heritably-based variance in the tendency to rape (which I doubt), and if males
do enhance their fitness through rape, the behavior would increase in human
populations. As others have pointed out, this is independent of whether or
not rape is "good" for the species, or, for that matter, females.
--Jim Rising
--
Name: Jim Rising
Mail: Dept. Zoology, Univ. Toronto
Toronto, Ontario, Canada M5S 1A1
UUCP: {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!risingronse@prlb2.UUCP (Christian Ronse) (01/21/88)
In article <1988Jan19.094531.8703@utzoo.uucp>, rising@utzoo.uucp (Jim Rising) writes: > In humans females sometimes become pregnant as a consequence of rape. Thus, > it is potentially selectively advantageous for males to rape. Everybody seems to forget that our species lives in a social environment, not in wilderness. In all societies rape is severely punished, by prison, banning, or even by death. To be caught and emprisonned or killed is not a selective advantages. Since we live in society, genetic features which conform better to social life are advantaged by `natural' (now social) selection. For example, West Europeans have raised cows for milk during thousands of years, and they have a gene which allows them to digest lactose after infanthood. Japaneses have not done it, and they lack this gene. Don't give milk or cheese to a Japanese. Christian Ronse maldoror@prlb2.UUCP {uunet|philabs|mcvax|...}!prlb2!{maldoror|ronse}
rising@utzoo.uucp (Jim Rising) (02/03/88)
--
Name: Jim Rising
Mail: Dept. Zoology, Univ. Toronto
Toronto, Ontario, Canada M5S 1A1
UUCP: {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!risingrising@utzoo.uucp (Jim Rising) (02/03/88)
To reiterate some points that have been made previously, but are still
being discussed, inasmuch as human females sometimes become pregnant
as a consequence of forced copulation, it is at least possible that this
behavior enhances the Darwinian fitness of the males who force copulations.
In humans, forced copulations doubtless occur for many different reasons,
and probably sometimes aberrant or perhaps misdirected sexual behavior.
In any event, to the best of my knowledge no society condones forced
copulation, nor in my opinion should, and I don't think that anyone has
said that. We doubtless do not understand the biological or psychological
bases of rape in humans at all adequately, but even if we did, that under-
standing would in no way require us to change statues. It might, however,
help us deal better with the problem.
Incidentally, "normal sex" almost certainly has implications far beyond
simply procreation (the "Pope's hypothesis"). Certainly, people generally
engage in normal sex without considering their Darwinian fitness, and the
probability of achieving conception are small--would you say 5-10%, without
contraception? That of course does not mean that copulation does not
affect one's fitness. That is doubtless the "ultimate" cause, but not the
"proximate" cause.
--Jim Rising
--
Name: Jim Rising
Mail: Dept. Zoology, Univ. Toronto
Toronto, Ontario, Canada M5S 1A1
UUCP: {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!risinggarry@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Garry Wiegand) (02/07/88)
In a recent article rising@utzoo.uucp (Jim Rising) wrote: >To reiterate some points that have been made previously, but are still >being discussed, inasmuch as human females sometimes become pregnant >as a consequence of forced copulation, it is at least possible that this >behavior enhances the Darwinian fitness of the males who force copulations. Does anyone out there know if forced copulation *ever* occurs in nature among the higher vertebrates? (My thought is that if estrus is obvious in a given species, the female's probably feeling willing, and if estrus is not obvious then several/many copulations will probably be necessary to achieve pregnancy, and forcing things will probably make it hard to do the repeats.) I'm not blaming you specifically, Jim, but scientists have an extra duty to be careful how their words are taken when what seems like just a mental exercise intersects real people. If you say an argument is indeed "possible", it's only a short step to "reasonable" and then to "true". Things that doctors and scientists say (for example, about AIDS) often get real abused when heard by people with other mental habits. garry wiegand (garry@oak.cadif.cornell.edu - ARPA) (garry@crnlthry - BITNET)