jack@cs.hw.ac.uk (Jack Campin) (02/10/88)
[Craig Werner claimed that male breastfeeding was impossible because men
don't have ductal tissue].
When Alexander von Humboldt and Aime Bonpland were in Venezuela in 1799 they
heard of a man who at the age of 32, while his wife was sick, had tried to
pacify his child by getting it to suck on his own nipple. This caused his
breast to swell considerably and eventually discharge very thick, sweet milk.
The man (Francisco Lozano from the village of Arenas in the Araya peninsula)
breastfed his child two or three times a day for five months; the child had
no other food during this period. Humboldt and Bonpland saw Lozano and his son
about 14 years later; Lozano's breasts were enlarged and wrinkled, especially
the left one, which had been the more productive. They checked out a number
of eyewitnesses.
I got this from an anonymous abridgment of Humboldt's diaries published by
Blackwood's towards the end of last century. I haven't checked with the
original source, but the abridgment makes no other claims of extraordinary
occurrences. I doubt whether Humboldt was any more gullible than Craig Werner.
--
ARPA: jack%cs.glasgow.ac.uk@nss.cs.ucl.ac.uk
JANET:jack@uk.ac.glasgow.cs USENET: ...mcvax!ukc!cs.glasgow.ac.uk!jack
Mail: Jack Campin, Computing Science Department, University of Glasgow,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8QQ, Scotland (041 339 8855 x 6045)hollombe@ttidca.TTI.COM (The Polymath) (02/19/88)
In article <1686@brahma.cs.hw.ac.uk> jack@cs.hw.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes: >[Craig Werner claimed that male breastfeeding was impossible because men >don't have ductal tissue]. I seemed to have missed the referenced article. However, I have to agree that Craig is wrong on this one (someone note the date (-: ). The La Leche League (a breast-feeding advocacy organization) is quite positive on the subject and routinely asks if the father would like to breast-feed in cases where the mother can't or won't. Though it usually requires hormone injections to set the machinery in motion, there's no anatomical reason to prevent most men from breast-feeding. -- The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, hollombe@TTI.COM) Illegitimati Nil Citicorp(+)TTI Carborundum 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. (213) 452-9191, x2483 Santa Monica, CA 90405 {csun|philabs|psivax|trwrb}!ttidca!hollombe
flowers@lanai.cs.ucla.edu (Margot Flowers) (02/21/88)
[Craig Werner claimed that male breastfeeding was impossible because men don't have ductal tissue]. I've heard of various cases of male lactation: - It is not uncommon for newborn boys (or girls) to have some milk in their breasts from the influence of maternal hormones. - The Merck Manual describes Galactorrhea, "Lactation in MEN [emphasis added], or in women who are not breast-feeding an infant" (p 1028ff, 15th ed), and describes many causes, some physiologic (such as nipple stimulation, which stimulates the production of prolactin, in both men and women), some pathologic (e.g. tumors), and some pharmacologic (side-effect of drugs). [:) Maybe they don't cover newborns and Galactorrhea in the first 3 years of medical school? ;) ] - In an anthro class years ago, I heard about a culture in Africa where men routinely breastfeed their children. The same info was repeated in a breastfeeding class I went to. The mechanics are the same as in adoptive mothers who breastfeed. Apparently, studies have shown that in women, milk production is related NOT to breast size, but IS partially related to amount of stimulation through breastfeeding, and thus is somewhat self-regulating. This may explain how milk production could be initiated and exist in normal adult male breast tissue. --- By the way, the Merck Manual is a great source of info for people interested in reading this group. It is also a bargain: The current edition (15th) is just under 2700 pages (on bible paper) for $21.50. You'll need a medical dictionary to read it initially but will catch on fast.
werner@aecom.YU.EDU (Craig Werner) (02/23/88)
In article <9626@shemp.CS.UCLA.EDU>, flowers@lanai.cs.ucla.edu (Margot Flowers) writes: > > I've heard of various cases of male lactation: > > - The Merck Manual describes Galactorrhea, "Lactation in MEN [emphasis > added], or in women who are not breast-feeding an infant" (p 1028ff, I don't even know why I continue to debate the point. I suppose that as sci.med's resident dartboard,I feel dutybound. Galactorrhea, and it's correlary, Gynecomastia, when they occur in men is usually significant of a disease state (either natural or induced). Men have rudimentary breasts for the same reason that women have clitoral rather than vaginal orgasms (much to Freudians' dismay): we all follow the same pattern initially in embryonic development, and the penis (excepting the urethra) is merely a hypertrophied clitoris. This is not to say, of course,that men and women end up the same. Note well, however, that the stimulation of a male to lactation involves a significant amount of feminization, some of which is irreversible, and I really think that it is irresponsible to advocate male breast feeding. -- Craig Werner (future MD/PhD, 3.5 years down, 3.5 to go) werner@aecom.YU.EDU -- Albert Einstein College of Medicine (1935-14E Eastchester Rd., Bronx NY 10461, 212-931-2517) "Comedy, like Medicine, was never meant to be practiced by the general public."
dnichols@mips.csc.ti.com (Dan Nichols) (02/24/88)
In article <1948@ttidca.TTI.COM> hollombe@ttidcb.tti.com (The Polymath) writes: >that Craig is wrong on this one (someone note the date (-: ). The La >Leche League (a breast-feeding advocacy organization) is quite positive on >the subject and routinely asks if the father would like to breast-feed in >cases where the mother can't or won't. > This is the second time I have seen Jerry mention this. I sincerely wish someone could provide me with more information about this. My fiancee and I have both tried to find out more about this from the La Leche League with NO luck whatsoever. They wouldn't even talk to me. The local rep told my fiancee she'd never heard of such a thing (and sounded a bit repulsed by the idea). A letter to the national headquarters brought only a copy of an article which described male lactation as associated with sever cases of starvation or some such thing. They basically denied any knowledge of this being feasible. Dan Dan Nichols {allegra,ihnp4,uiucdcs,sun}!convex!infoswx!ti-csl!dnichols POB 655474 M/S 238 ARPA: Dnichols@csc.ti.com Texas Instruments Inc. CSNET: Dnichols@Ti-CSL Dallas, Texas 75256 VOICE: (214) 995-6090
bzs@bu-cs.BU.EDU (Barry Shein) (02/24/88)
From Craig Warner... > I don't even know why I continue to debate the point. I suppose >that as sci.med's resident dartboard,I feel dutybound. Craig, stop being so damn defensive, you'll pollute the atmosphere. What's wrong with a little controversial discussion? I don't see anyone being impolite or throwing darts, just quoting various sources or asking questions etc. >Note well, however, that the stimulation of a male to lactation involves >a significant amount of feminization, some of which is irreversible, >and I really think that it is irresponsible to advocate male breast feeding. That's probably true, I believe you. Describing it as a "disease" condition might be a little ethnocentric (tho in this "ethno" it is certainly advice that must be offered by any responsible physician.) However, if La Leche and others are correct that there exist cultures which do occasionally or regularly use men as nursemaids (apparently without use of modern drug derivations such as estrogens) successfully it's interesting by itself, medical anthropology and all that, what's the big deal? The impression I get is that the irreversible feminization is cosmetic in effect and doesn't present any real life-threatening or otherwise debilitating condition other than possible psychological effects which I agree most men in this culture would find disturbing (as usual, I more than welcome any correction), but somewhere here we might be crossing a fine line referring to it as "a significant of a disease state", no? Well, ok, I'll certainly grant that if it occurs spontaneously and I were an MD I'd consider it a "significant of a disease state", you did say "usually", and would want to look into it, but that's not what was being discussed, was it? We were discussing lactation in men apparently induced by allowing an infant to suckle the breast. But somehow the original question is being lost in this discussion, no one asked if it were common to see men lactating in NYC, they said that various sources have claimed this to be possible. Calm down, the truth will out (usually.) -Barry Shein, Boston University
roy@phri.UUCP (Roy Smith) (02/24/88)
Is there any truth to the rumor that lactation prevents conception,
i.e. as long as a man is nursing his child he will not become pregnant?
--
Roy Smith, {allegra,cmcl2,philabs}!phri!roy
System Administrator, Public Health Research Institute
455 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016baxter@navajo (Ray Baxter) (02/25/88)
In article <1636@aecom.YU.EDU>, werner@aecom (Craig Werner) writes: >and I really think that it is irresponsible to advocate male breast feeding. I had not noticed that anyone on the net was advocating male breast feeding. The question was, is it possible for men to breast feed? The answer seems to be yes. Why continue the debate? > Craig Werner (future MD/PhD, 3.5 years down, 3.5 to go) > ... >"Comedy, like Medicine, was never meant to be practiced by the general public. Given your investment, it is not surprising that you would like this quote. I hope the rest of us can doubt both halves of the assertion. Anyone who surrenders the control of the humor in their lives to someone else will lose their sense of humor; anyone who surrenders the control of their health to someone else will lose their sense of health. -- Ray Baxter Department of Biological Sciences baxter@navajo.stanford.edu Stanford University (415) 723-3902 Stanford, California 94305 --
dyer@arktouros.MIT.EDU (Steve Dyer) (02/25/88)
Pardon me if my credulity is strained a bit by claims that La Leche (sp?)
routinely asks whether a father would like to breastfeed, or that
by simple breast stimulation a male breast can develop and produce milk.
I'm not an anthropologist, but I see no evidence that this occurs in
any culture, or that it would ever be considered as other than something
extraordinary or a sign of endocrine dysfunction (i.e., it CAN'T and DOESN'T
occur routinely.)
I also am doubtful that suckling alone would have any measurable physiological
effect on the male breast viz. breast development and milk production. This
is borne out by the observation that many men derive sexual pleasure through
breast and nipple stimulation and manipulation (this is more admitted to in
the gay male community, although it's certainly more widespread than that),
yet such practices have not produced an epidemic of gynecomastia or
galactorrhea.
---
Steve Dyer
dyer@arktouros.MIT.EDU
dyer@spdcc.COM aka {harvard,husc6,ima,ihnp4,bbn,m2c}!spdcc!dyerdyer@arktouros.MIT.EDU (Steve Dyer) (02/25/88)
>The question was, is it possible for men to breast feed? The answer seems >to be yes. Why continue the debate? Huh? On the contrary, I have seen nothing which would convince anyone that "the answer seems to be yes." A report from 1799 is rather meagre and suspect evidence. Outside of a hormonal imbalance, either endogenous or due to exogenous administration of estrogens or estrogen-like substances, I'm not convinced that breast feeding in men is physiologically possible. --- Steve Dyer dyer@arktouros.MIT.EDU dyer@spdcc.COM aka {harvard,husc6,ima,ihnp4,bbn,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
baxter@navajo (Ray Baxter) (02/25/88)
I wrote: >>The question was, is it possible for men to breast feed? The answer seems >>to be yes. Why continue the debate? to which <3203@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU>, dyer@arktouros (Steve Dyer) writes: >Huh? On the contrary, I have seen nothing which would convince anyone >that "the answer seems to be yes." A report from 1799 is rather meagre >and suspect evidence. Outside of a hormonal imbalance, either endogenous or >due to exogenous administration of estrogens or estrogen-like substances, >I'm not convinced that breast feeding in men is physiologically possible. Well, I did not really consider the 1799 evidence myself in my reply. But the reports of diseases in which men do lactate seemed more concrete. Clearly male breast feeding is possible. I do not see why you want to exclude evidence relating to hormonal imbalance. If there was not something out of kilter somewhere in the man's physiology, he would not be lactating. I know there have been some discussions in this thread about the La Leche League and male breast feeding (denied by a later writer) which would imply that some people think that male breast feeding is a good idea, or even normal. I had assumed that such discussions were peripheral to the topic of: Is it possible for a man to breast feed? ^^^^^^^^ That is, are there any circumstances which will allow a man to breast feed. -- Ray Baxter Department of Biological Sciences baxter@navajo.stanford.edu Stanford University (415) 723-3902 Stanford, California 94305 --
dyer@spdcc.COM (Steve Dyer) (02/25/88)
In article <2055@navajo.UUCP>, baxter@navajo (Ray Baxter) writes: > Well, I did not really consider the 1799 evidence myself in my reply. > But the reports of diseases in which men do lactate seemed more concrete. > Clearly male breast feeding is possible. Well, galactorrhea in men is a syndrome familiar to anyone with some medical knowledge, but that's a far far cry from saying that men have the capacity for "breast feeding", a statement which takes a abnormal physiological event and attempts to places it on the same nutritional and descriptive plane as the normal physiological event in women, when in fact they are remarkably different. In a syndrome like galactorrhea, the volume of milk produced is usually much smaller than a normal lactating woman's and its production is much less reliable; there's no evidence that men have the full physiological apparatus to evoke the "milk letdown reflex" in response to an infant's suckling, and I would be quite surprised if the fluid excreted (I hesitate to call it "milk") was nutritionally adequate to sustain an infant. Could you artificially try to induct a lactating state in a man given intense exogenous hormonal manipulation? Maybe, but I would still be sceptical of the utility of what you'd end up with. -- Steve Dyer dyer@harvard.harvard.edu dyer@spdcc.COM aka {ihnp4,harvard,husc6,linus,ima,bbn,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
geb@cadre.dsl.PITTSBURGH.EDU (Gordon E. Banks) (02/25/88)
In article <2054@navajo.UUCP> baxter@navajo (Ray Baxter) writes: >I had not noticed that anyone on the net was advocating male breast feeding. >The question was, is it possible for men to breast feed? The answer seems >to be yes. Why continue the debate? > > Ray Baxter Department of Biological Sciences > baxter@navajo.stanford.edu Stanford University > (415) 723-3902 Stanford, California 94305 Hopefully the department of biology at Leland Stanford Junior University will teach you to require stronger evidence before coming to the conclusion that a question is beyond debate. I have yet to see anything other than unsubstantiated anecdotes advanced here or anywhere else to support the contention that a normal male can produce sufficient milk to nourish an infant. If you are not a student, but faculty...well, I won't say it.
bzs@bu-cs.BU.EDU (Barry Shein) (02/26/88)
For what it's worth I just went through all the books I could find in the University's general library on Breastfeeding, some of which seemed quite thorough texts. I could find only one reference to male breastfeeding and that was basically a sarcastic remark which went on to describe an Icelandic saga in which a man, Thorga, breast fed his child by making slits in his nipple and letting the child suckle the blood (just fiction folks.) Consequently, unless anyone can provide something resembling a reference my scepticism meter is now on about 95/100. It's obviously impossible to prove that it does not exist, but it did seem that at least one of those texts would have had some mention. Several were devoted to cross-cultural and historical views also. The only thing I can conclude is either this topic is very poorly covered in texts or we are dealing with something akin to an urban legend. Your move. -Barry Shein, Boston University
werner@aecom.YU.EDU (Craig Werner) (02/26/88)
In article <3203@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU>, dyer@arktouros.MIT.EDU (Steve Dyer) writes: > >The question was, is it possible for men to breast feed? The answer seems > >to be yes. Why continue the debate? > > Huh? On the contrary, I have seen nothing which would convince anyone > that "the answer seems to be yes." While the question of "Why continue the debate?" has come into our minds on this end, I also must remain extremely dubious. In fact, the only thing that could convince me would be a father nursing his child on The Oprah Winfrey Show (It could be Donahue, I'm not particularly.) But until it's on daytime television, it's impossible, and that's the final word. -- Craig Werner (future MD/PhD, 3.5 years down, 3.5 to go) werner@aecom.YU.EDU -- Albert Einstein College of Medicine (1935-14E Eastchester Rd., Bronx NY 10461, 212-931-2517) "...if that's the hand you use, well, nevermind..."
heather@blia.BLI.COM (Heather Mackinnon) (02/27/88)
In article <696@spdcc.COM>, dyer@spdcc.COM (Steve Dyer) writes: > In a syndrome like galactorrhea, the volume of milk produced is usually much > smaller than a normal lactating woman's and its production is much less > reliable; there's no evidence that men have the full physiological apparatus to > evoke the "milk letdown reflex" in response to an infant's suckling, and I > would be quite surprised if the fluid excreted (I hesitate to call it "milk") > was nutritionally adequate to sustain an infant. I have no opinion as to whether men can lactate sufficiently to suckle an infant (not enough solid information), but I do know something about lactation in women. Milk production is determined by how much an infant suckles. It takes 3-5 days following birth before a woman is producing enough milk for her newborn. During growth spurts, there is about 24 hours delay between increased suckling by the infant and increased milk production by the mother. Therefore, the volume of milk produced during galactorrhea in the absence of nipple stimulation seems inconclusive to me. The milk letdown reflex is in response to an infant's cry. The letdown reflex is dependent on the presence of the hormone oxytocin which is produced in response to suckling. While the letdown reflex makes nursing easier for the baby, it doesn't necessarily happen everytime a baby cries or even always prior to nursing. Here are some things that I'd want to know before I could feel this question was answerable: 1) What's the chemical composition of the fluid produced by men with galactorrhea? Is it similiar to colostrum (the fluid in a new mom's breasts), is it similar to milk or is it very different from either? 2) Do men (either galactorrheaic or otherwise) produce oxytocin in response to nipple stimulation? 3) Can a galactorrheaic man's "milk" supply increase following intensive suckling? 4) Can galactorrhea be produced in otherwise normal men without the use of drugs? 5) (and oh yes) Would a man get up every two hours to change and suckle an infant? Heather Mackinnon
hollombe@ttidca.TTI.COM (The Polymath) (03/01/88)
In article <42982@ti-csl.CSNET> dnichols@mips.UUCP (Dan Nichols) writes: >In article <1948@ttidca.TTI.COM> hollombe@ttidcb.tti.com (The Polymath) writes: >>... The La Leche League ... >>... routinely asks if the father would like to breast-feed in >>cases where the mother can't or won't. >This is the second time I have seen Jerry mention this. ... >My fiancee and I have both tried to find out more about this from the La >Leche League with NO luck whatsoever. They wouldn't even talk to me. The >local rep told my fiancee she'd never heard of such a thing ... >... They basically denied any >knowledge of this being feasible. I suppose I should explain my source on this. In the course of getting my Clinical Psych. Master's I took a course in Developmental Psychology. The professor (Patricia Keith-Spiegle, Ph.D.) mentioned that when she _adopted_ her son she was contacted by a breast-feeding advocacy group, presumably La Leche League (are there any others?). When she explained she had neither desire nor intention to breast feed their next question was whether her husband would be interested in doing so (he wasn't). I took that course over ten years ago and her experience was a few years older than that. It's quite possible La Leche League's policies have changed in that time. I'm sorry if my original wording contributed further confusion. However, the original question was whether male breast-feeding is possible -- not whether it was easy, common, recommended, or healthful -- just possible. I think the evidence suggests it is. Your mileage may vary. -- The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, hollombe@TTI.COM) Illegitimati Nil Citicorp(+)TTI Carborundum 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. (213) 452-9191, x2483 Santa Monica, CA 90405 {csun|philabs|psivax|trwrb}!ttidca!hollombe