tracton@godot.RadOnc.UNC.EDU (Gregg Tracton) (11/12/90)
CROSS-POSTED to sci.bio, rec.food.cooking
Thank all of you who wrote for the suggestion of buying saltpeter for
my Corned Beef at the pharmacy. They had to back-order it, but
eventually it arrived. Cheap, too.
I ended up adding it a few hours before the curing ended, which is
before boiling the meat for 2-3 hours. The meat was red on the outer
inch, and grayish inside of that. It looked a bit like rare roast
beef, with the colors reversed. It tasted fine, with no cheesy smell,
although Shankar Bhattacharyya warned me about the Botulism chance
that I was taking. I got my information from a microbiology book on
cured foods, which seemed quite authoritative, but was written a long
time ago.
ABOUT BOTULISM
So I took the chance (!) & ate it, & I'm still alive. I read about the
days before saltpeter was used while curing meat, and the techniques
seem to be about the same as with saltpeter. I wonder (and I bet that
Shankar can answer this), does the Botulism grow during the curing
stage or during the storage stage (post-curing)? Can it be killed off
by boiling for 2-3 hours? IF Botulism can live in a saline solution
which is "strong enough to float an egg" at 40 degrees F, can it also
live in a very dilute solution at boiling tempuratures?
Where does Botulism usually infect the meat? From the air, from a
sick animal, from me?
Maybe i should take this discussion to sci.bio?
--gregg
--
Gregg Tracton Voice:(919)-966-7710
Dept of Radiation Oncology FAX:(919)-966-7681
School of Medicine tracton@godot.radonc.unc.edu
Univ of North Carolina {...}mcnc!godot!tractonritz@ldyday.enet.dec.com (and there are no truths outside the gates of Eden) (11/14/90)
In article <7094@rnd.GBA.NYU.EDU>, sbhattac@rnd.GBA.NYU.EDU (Shankar Bhattacharyya) writes: |> In article <1990Nov12.152122.15466@godot.RadOnc.UNC.EDU> tracton@godot.radonc.unc.edu () writes: |> |> > ...... I wonder (and I bet that |> >Shankar can answer this), does the Botulism grow during the curing |> >stage or during the storage stage (post-curing)? Can it be killed off |> >by boiling for 2-3 hours? IF Botulism can live in a saline solution |> >which is "strong enough to float an egg" at 40 degrees F, can it also |> >live in a very dilute solution at boiling tempuratures? |> For what little it is worth, I seem to remember that the botulinum bug |> produces a protein toxin which is not denatured at the boil, and so the |> toxin can affect you even if the bug itself is killed. Botulinus is a strict anaerobe, meaning that it cannot grow in the presence of oxygen. The toxin is produced during the storage phase, but the original inoculum of Botuluinus is the determining factor between good food and death. The toxin can be destroyed by boiling, but you bet your life on the outcome. It grows in a narrow pH range; this is why canning tomatoes in boiling water is safe, but not corn. It also doesn't grow much under refrigeration. If you're going to be storing your corned beef in the fridge, I'd say you're pretty safe. Don't forget - corning is a preservative process. Canned corned beef is the thing you've got to worry about. Many sausage-type products use nitrates because the meat is ground, exposing it to the air, then packed in an anaerobic environment. Again, unless you hang it at room temperature, or the original inoculum is inordinately large, you don't have to worry about it. It's mostly used for the pretty pink color. All the facts are in the latest version of _Putting Food By_. John Ritz ritz@ldyday.enet.dec.com ritz@smaug.enet.dec.com "It's freedom of speech...as long as you don't say too much." Neville Bros.
mel@niblick.ecn.purdue.edu (Meloney D Cregor) (11/14/90)
In article <7094@rnd.GBA.NYU.EDU> sbhattac@rnd.gba.nyu.edu (Shankar Bhattacharyya) writes: >In article <1990Nov12.152122.15466@godot.RadOnc.UNC.EDU> tracton@godot.radonc.unc.edu () writes: > >> ...... I wonder (and I bet that >>Shankar can answer this), does the Botulism grow during the curing >>stage or during the storage stage (post-curing)? Can it be killed off >>by boiling for 2-3 hours? IF Botulism can live in a saline solution >>which is "strong enough to float an egg" at 40 degrees F, can it also >>live in a very dilute solution at boiling tempuratures? > >You would lose that bet. I don't know anything about the microbiology >end of things. The little I know came from casual conversations with >microbiologists, and is only slightly more than one picks up while walking >past the appropriate section at the bookstore. > >For what little it is worth, I seem to remember that the botulinum bug >produces a protein toxin which is not denatured at the boil, and so the >toxin can affect you even if the bug itself is killed. > >This is speculative recall from relatively volatile areas of memory. I >trust that some microbiologically informed soul will clarify this. I am >curious about it. Well, if I can remember from my micro days... Fifteen minutes of boiling at 100C will not only kill the bug, but denature the toxin as well. This is why they caution you to always boil canned foods at least 15 minutes. If my memory does not serve, I will welcome edification from someone more current in the field. -- Mel Cregor Black Belt, 5th Dan, Zen Power Flirting. "Too much of a good thing is wonderful!" - Mae West