mcdaniel@adi.com (Tim McDaniel) (12/12/90)
Please note the cross-posting. Subject line was "Re: we are alien". In article <kde.659918178@heawk1>, kde@heawk1.gsfc.nasa.gov ( Keith Evans) writes: > But with communication, one can think and make plans rather than > just brute force it (i.e., kill an animal for food, "you chase him > around that way and I'll wait for him"). I recently read "Through a Window", by Jane Goodall. I loaned it out, so I can't check details or give precise references. She describes a band of chimps hunting a colobus monkey with an infant. The colobus climbed a tree. Each chimp climbed one of the adjacent trees, one chimp leaped into the tree with the colobus, the colobus mother leaped to another tree, and the chimp there easily caught the infant and killed it. Sounds like good planning and teamwork to me. She, and that researcher at the Amsterdam Zoo (?), have also described chimp power politics: long-range planning, alliances, backstabbing, brown-nosing, coat-tail riding, et cetera. In article <1990Dec4.081503.1959@desire.wright.edu> sbishop@desire.wright.edu writes: My comment on this; who says animals can communicate inter-species? Too many people seem to think that there is this mystical communication between all animals. There is no evidence that this is true. There is, however, non-mystical communication between a wide variety of animals. Jane Goodall says that chimps and baboons listen for and understand each others' calls. Baboons, for instance, often scream distinctively when they find a rich food source; nearby chimps hear it and zero in on it. They also understand each others' alarm screams. As best I recall, "Natural History Magazine" had an article mentioning that certain birds understand the calls of other birds. On chimp-baboon communication and interaction: Jane Goodall describes the mating of a chimp male with a baboon female (unique, and one of the most incredible things she has ever seen). The chimp displayed as a chimp male does: shows an erect penis, rustles branches, makes calls. Baboon males, however, just show an erection and approach the female. The baboon, though, realized what was on the chimp's mind, and approached and stood on all fours waiting for mating ("assume the position"). Chimp females, however, crouch to the ground for mating, with the male sitting behind; a baboon male grasps the females's ankles with his feet before mounting. The chimp pushed with his knuckles, trying to get the baboon to crouch; she crouched a bit. He pushed again, and she crouched a bit more. He then grasped her ankles with his feet and mounted her. Neither of them followed their species stereotyped mating behavior, and they negotiated their differences. (There was no wet spot, so that was no problem.) The interaction between chimps and baboons is strange. She has observed chimps and baboons: - ignoring each other peacefully (usual, even when mixing groups) - competing for food (fairly common) - observing hazards, like snakes (occasional) - trying to mate (very rare) - infants playing with each other (common) And chimps hunting baboon infants (rarely successful). Can anyone think of one non-human species which plays with, interacts peacefully with, AND hunts another non-human species? I've heard that dolphins will leap a barrier to be with orcas, as long as the orcas aren't hungry (David Brin? Larry Niven?). Is this true? Is there a correlation with intelligence, then? And why don't baboons (dolphins) gang up against the vastly-outnumbered chimps (orcas) and wipe them out, to end all such predation? -- Tim McDaniel Applied Dynamics Int'l.; Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA Work phone: +1 313 973 1300 Home phone: +1 313 677 4386 Internet: mcdaniel@adi.com UUCP: {uunet,sharkey}!amara!mcdaniel
sbishop@desire.wright.edu (12/13/90)
In article <MCDANIEL.90Dec11164732@dolphin.adi.com>, mcdaniel@adi.com (Tim McDaniel) writes: > Please note the cross-posting. Subject line was "Re: we are alien". > > In article <1990Dec4.081503.1959@desire.wright.edu> > sbishop@desire.wright.edu writes: > > My comment on this; who says animals can communicate inter-species? > Too many people seem to think that there is this mystical > communication between all animals. There is no evidence that this > is true. > > There is, however, non-mystical communication between a wide variety > of animals. Jane Goodall says that chimps and baboons listen for and > understand each others' calls. Baboons, for instance, often scream > distinctively when they find a rich food source; nearby chimps hear it > and zero in on it. They also understand each others' alarm screams. > As best I recall, "Natural History Magazine" had an article mentioning > that certain birds understand the calls of other birds. > Actually the comment I was replying to was along the order of - we are really aliens from another planet because we can't communicate with other animals. The poster seemed to imply that other animals are on a mystical wavelength that humans do not share. Of course, there is non-mystical communication between man and animals. My horses have me very well trained. When they yell a certain way, I put food out for them to eat. Same thing with the cat. > On chimp-baboon communication and interaction: > > Jane Goodall describes the mating of a chimp male with a baboon female > (unique, and one of the most incredible things she has ever seen). > The chimp displayed as a chimp male does: shows an erect penis, > rustles branches, makes calls. Baboon males, however, just show an > erection and approach the female. The baboon, though, realized what > was on the chimp's mind, and approached and stood on all fours waiting > for mating ("assume the position"). Chimp females, however, crouch to > the ground for mating, with the male sitting behind; a baboon male > grasps the females's ankles with his feet before mounting. The chimp > pushed with his knuckles, trying to get the baboon to crouch; she > crouched a bit. He pushed again, and she crouched a bit more. He > then grasped her ankles with his feet and mounted her. Neither of > them followed their species stereotyped mating behavior, and they > negotiated their differences. (There was no wet spot, so that was no > problem.) > > The interaction between chimps and baboons is strange. She has > observed chimps and baboons: > - ignoring each other peacefully (usual, even when mixing groups) > - competing for food (fairly common) > - observing hazards, like snakes (occasional) > - trying to mate (very rare) > - infants playing with each other (common) > And chimps hunting baboon infants (rarely successful). > > Can anyone think of one non-human species which plays with, interacts > peacefully with, AND hunts another non-human species? > Sure, that's easy. Dogs and cats. Dogs and coyotes (which sometimes produce coydogs) Dogs and wolves.
mvp@hsv3.UUCP (Mike Van Pelt) (12/13/90)
In article <MCDANIEL.90Dec11164732@dolphin.adi.com> mcdaniel@adi.com (Tim McDaniel) writes: >Is there a correlation with intelligence, then? And why don't baboons >(dolphins) gang up against the vastly-outnumbered chimps (orcas) and >wipe them out, to end all such predation? Chimps don't seem to be able to plan ahead in this way to remove threats either. Jane Goodall (I think) described a situation with one female chimp who had the habit of killing and eating the babies of other chimps. The other chimps would defend their infants, but once the killer got the infant, that was the end of the matter; they wouldn't (couldn't?) act to prevent future infantcides. This chimp eventually died of natural causes. -- "A people who expect to be ignorant Mike Van Pelt and free expect what never will, Headland Technology and never can, be." (was: Video Seven) -- Thomas Jefferson ...ames!vsi1!v7fs1!mvp
raf@mango.cs.su.OZ.AU (A Stainless Steel Rat) (12/14/90)
In article <MCDANIEL.90Dec11164732@dolphin.adi.com> mcdaniel@adi.com (Tim McDaniel) writes: >Please note the cross-posting. Subject line was "Re: we are alien". >I recently read "Through a Window", by Jane Goodall. I loaned it out, >so I can't check details or give precise references. She describes a >band of chimps hunting a colobus monkey with an infant. The colobus >climbed a tree. Each chimp climbed one of the adjacent trees, one >chimp leaped into the tree with the colobus, the colobus mother leaped >to another tree, and the chimp there easily caught the infant and >killed it. Sounds like good planning and teamwork to me. In a book by Carl "Billions and Billions (tm)" Sagan called "The Evolution and Development of the Human Brain" he mentions two chimps that were working together in order to hassle a chicken. I don't remember the details but it was definitely a case of planning ahead and working together, basically to play a prank on the chicken (they were probably bored at the time and needed some comic relief :-). [...] >I've heard that dolphins will leap a barrier to be with orcas, as long >as the orcas aren't hungry (David Brin? Larry Niven?). Is this true? >Is there a correlation with intelligence, then? And why don't baboons >(dolphins) gang up against the vastly-outnumbered chimps (orcas) and >wipe them out, to end all such predation? Probably because they're not interested in such genocide when the vastly-outnumbered species is just trying to survive like everyone else. Not all creatures are that much like us, you know :-) raf -- Robert A Fabian | My opinions of employers are, no, raf@basser.cs.su.oz.au | the opinions employed by my, no no, Basser Department of Computer Science | the opinions of unemployed miners University of Sydney | are, no no no ...
paj@mrcu (Paul Johnson) (12/14/90)
>Please note the cross-posting. Subject line was "Re: we are alien". > >In article <kde.659918178@heawk1>, kde@heawk1.gsfc.nasa.gov ( Keith >Evans) writes: >> But with communication, one can think and make plans rather than >> just brute force it (i.e., kill an animal for food, "you chase him >> around that way and I'll wait for him"). > >I recently read "Through a Window", by Jane Goodall. I loaned it out, >so I can't check details or give precise references. She describes a >band of chimps hunting a colobus monkey with an infant. The colobus >climbed a tree. Each chimp climbed one of the adjacent trees, one >chimp leaped into the tree with the colobus, the colobus mother leaped >to another tree, and the chimp there easily caught the infant and >killed it. Sounds like good planning and teamwork to me. > >She, and that researcher at the Amsterdam Zoo (?), have also described >chimp power politics: long-range planning, alliances, backstabbing, >brown-nosing, coat-tail riding, et cetera. The BBC series "Trials of Life" by David Attenborough (sp?) ended the program on hunting with film of one of these hunts. The chimps used (as I recall) 3 roles: a group of chasers to herd the colbuses into a tree, blockers who picked strategic points in nearby trees and sat there looking big and prominent, and finaly a hunter who went up the tree and caught a colbus. In this hunt a troop of colbus was chased and one adult caught and shared out. They put grim and threatening music on for this scene, but Zarathustra might have been more appropriate. If you get a chance to see this program (and the rest of the series, but mainly this one) then do so. It had some of the most awesome animal photography I have ever seen, including shots of black-backed gulls hunting puffins out of the air and killer whales deliberately beaching themselves to grab seals. Also of interest is Farley Mowat "Never Cry Wolf", which tells of the year he spent studying wolves in Alaska. He reports local indians (Innuit?) being able to understand wolf howls as messages with specific meanings (e.g. `Moose to north-east' or `Humans coming through here') and one incident where the 3 adults in the pack he was studying spent most of a day setting up an object lesson for the pups in how not to hunt. Can you post a referance to that Jane Goodall book please? I would like to read it. Paul. -- Paul Johnson UUCP: <world>!mcvax!ukc!gec-mrc!paj --------------------------------!-------------------------|------------------- GEC-Marconi Research is not | Telex: 995016 GECRES G | Tel: +44 245 73331 responsible for my opinions. | Inet: paj@uk.co.gec-mrc | Fax: +44 245 75244