milt@sgi.com (Milton E. Tinkoff) (02/27/91)
I've been told that there is only one animal (besides humans) that kills for recreational purposes. If this animal exists, what is it? Toying with prey and then eating it or leaving it as a gift (house cats) doesn't count. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Milt Tinkoff | "Too much is always better Silicon Graphics Inc. | than not enough." milt@waynes-world.esd.sgi.com |
bryans@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (B. Charles Siegfried) (02/27/91)
milt@sgi.com (Milton E. Tinkoff) writes: >I've been told that there is only one animal (besides >humans) that kills for recreational purposes. If this >animal exists, what is it? Toying with prey and then >eating it or leaving it as a gift (house cats) doesn't >count. Seems to me that this question has two big fallacies: One, it assumes that there are other animals smart enough to actually separate recreational activities from its daily life or that we can determine such recreational activity. We discover how behaviors are integral to behavior all of the time. I doubt we can conclusively determine whether or not any animal activity is recreational. Secondly, you discount any playing with unwanted prey. doesn't it seem like if a cat kills a mouse when in fact it isn't hungry, that might be a recreational activity? Maybe its just instinct - maybe its recreation - how can we tell? (See above). __ Bryan Siegfried zig@uiuc.edu
schumach@convex.com (Richard A. Schumacher) (02/27/91)
On the other hand, seals all along the west coast are often observed killing far more salmon and other fish than they can eat. Why do they do it?
jokim@jarthur.Claremont.EDU (John H. Kim) (02/27/91)
In article <schumach.667616596@convex.convex.com> schumach@convex.com (Richard A. Schumacher) writes: >On the other hand, seals all along the west coast are often >observed killing far more salmon and other fish than they >can eat. Why do they do it? I can personally confirm this. I watched a young (<6 ft) California sea lion catch and toss around a mackerel for about two hours while I was fishing in a harbor. Every few minutes I'd hear a SLAP over the water and see the mackeral go skittering across the surface. The sea lion would swim around a bit, retrieve the mackerel, and repeat the process. Eventually, it left the mackerel floating on the surface and disappeared. I hung around for about an hour longer and the sea lion didn't return. If you ask me, from what I've seen of my dog playing with rubber toys, I'd say the sea lion was playing with the fish. -- John H. Kim | (This space to be filled when I jokim@jarthur.claremont.edu | think of something very clever uunet!jarthur!jokim | to use as a disclaimer)
andrewt@cs.su.oz (Andrew Taylor) (02/27/91)
In article <1991Feb26.202248.26171@odin.corp.sgi.com> milt@sgi.com (Milton E. Tinkoff) writes: > > I've been told that there is only one animal (besides > humans) that kills for recreational purposes. If this > animal exists, what is it? Toying with prey ... Californian Sea Lions will occasionally kill Marine Iguanas during play. South American Sea Lions will kill Magellenic Penguins, apparently as play and apparently quite deliberately. Neither eats the victim nor are they normal prey. I'm sure there are other examples. Andrew Taylor
geb@dsl.pitt.edu (Gordon E. Banks) (02/27/91)
In article <1991Feb26.202248.26171@odin.corp.sgi.com> milt@sgi.com (Milton E. Tinkoff) writes: > >animal exists, what is it? Toying with prey and then >eating it or leaving it as a gift (house cats) doesn't >count. If that doesn't count, why not and what would? All cats do this, not just house cats. Sometimes they will not eat the prey or "leave it as a gift", but simply abandon it if it is not appetizing or the cat is not hungry. But they will rarely pass up the opportunity to take prey. It looks to me like they are having fun.
sbishop@desire.wright.edu (02/28/91)
In article <1991Feb26.202248.26171@odin.corp.sgi.com>, milt@sgi.com (Milton E. Tinkoff) writes: > > I've been told that there is only one animal (besides > humans) that kills for recreational purposes. If this > animal exists, what is it? Toying with prey and then > eating it or leaving it as a gift (house cats) doesn't > count. > -- That's easy! The domestic dog. Any farmer can tell you that. You really don't want to see a flock of sheep after a pack of dogs has managed to corner them. They literally tear them up. BTW, this problem is nearly always caused by someone's 'precious pet' whom the owners believe must 'run free' since that is their nature. I once had a Siberian Husky kill twenty chickens, fifteen ducks, and a couple of geese on my farm in just about fifteen minutes. I caught the dog and called animal control.
kuento@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (02/28/91)
In article <2132@cluster.cs.su.oz.au>, andrewt@cs.su.oz (Andrew Taylor) writes: > In article <1991Feb26.202248.26171@odin.corp.sgi.com> milt@sgi.com > (Milton E. Tinkoff) writes: >> >> I've been told that there is only one animal (besides >> humans) that kills for recreational purposes. If this >> animal exists, what is it? Toying with prey ... > > Californian Sea Lions will occasionally kill Marine Iguanas during play. > South American Sea Lions will kill Magellenic Penguins, apparently as play > and apparently quite deliberately. Neither eats the victim nor are they > normal prey. I'm sure there are other examples. > > Andrew Taylor Yes, there are, and they all have one thing in common which suggests it is NOT purely for fun - the animals that are killed are either normal prey items, or have characteristics similar to normal prey. The answer is simple - the animal is *practicing* its hunting technique, keeping itself sharp. *YOU* try catching a fish in your mouth some time! Instinct does not necessarily confer *skill* automatically... even a natural predator needs to practice. -------(please include "DY" in subj header of mail to this user)-------- Doug "Speaker-To-Insects" Yanega "UT!" Bitnet: KUENTO@UKANVAX My card: 0 The Fool (Snow Museum, Univ. of KS, Lawrence, KS 66045) "I'll employ my resources to make your puny lives miserable! I'll crush your pitiful dreams and ambitions like bugs in the dust!" - Calvin
young@alw.nih.gov (Jeff Young) (03/01/91)
I thought that it was the cat. I think that feral cats have been seen killing for no reason. -- jy young@alw.nih.gov
mll@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Mark Luce) (03/01/91)
Juvenile carnivores often engage in 'play' activities which are actually learning experiences. They are practicing the predatory skills which they will need to survive as adults. As such, these 'play' stalking, often stalking imaginary objects, because stalking abilities are (or at least were, in the case of domesticated cats) essential to their survival. If they get the chance to practice on living prey, they will naturally do so, even if they are not hungry. Juvenile social carnivores will practice social hunting skills. I would imagine that juvenile hominids did much the same sort of thing...
andrewt@cs.su.oz (Andrew Taylor) (03/01/91)
In article <28836.27cc6593@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> kuento@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes: >> Californian Sea Lions will occasionally kill Marine Iguanas during play. >> South American Sea Lions will kill Magellenic Penguins, > > Yes, there are, and they all have one thing in common which suggests > it is NOT purely for fun - the animals that are killed are either > normal prey items, or have characteristics similar to normal prey. The > answer is simple - the animal is *practicing* its hunting technique, I disgree. Neither of the examples have similar characteristics to the normal prey. Marine Iguana are slow surface-swimming targets which try to escape to shallow water. Magellenic Penguins main evasive manoeuvres involve porpoising. I can see no advantage for the Sea Lions learning to cope with these tactics. Their prey does not do these things. At least in the second case the individual had been an adult for at least several years and hence presumably its hunting skill were well developed. Other play by Sea Lions is does not develop hunting skills (e.g swimming inverted below you while blowing bubbles at you). Andrew Taylor
jokim@jarthur.Claremont.EDU (John H. Kim) (03/01/91)
In article <9560002@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM> mll@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Mark Luce) writes: > > Juvenile carnivores often engage in 'play' activities which are >actually learning experiences. They are practicing the predatory skills >which they will need to survive as adults. As such, these 'play' ... And I suppose kids 'play' baseball because of an instinctive desire to increase their hand-eye coordination. So how do we determine that an animal is doing something for fun (play) and not for practice? It seems where this is headed is that carnivores kill for practice, but find it fun and consider it play. In which case the entire point of whether it is killing for fun or killing for practice is moot. -- John H. Kim | (This space to be filled when I jokim@jarthur.claremont.edu | think of something very clever uunet!jarthur!jokim | to use as a disclaimer)
anderson@lynx.cat.syr.edu (Joseph Anderson) (03/25/91)
In article <1991Feb26.202248.26171@odin.corp.sgi.com> milt@sgi.com (Milton E. Tinkoff) writes: > >I've been told that there is only one animal (besides >humans) that kills for recreational purposes. If this >animal exists, what is it? Toying with prey and then >eating it or leaving it as a gift (house cats) doesn't >count. >-- from anderson@cat.syr.edu I believe it is the Polar Bear Although recently Anthony Hopkins has demonstrated some new meanings to one of those words used above.