davidst@teklabs.UUCP (09/14/83)
Can anyone replace the "?" with an appropriate English word? Or a word from any of the European languages? Or explain why we have these holes in our terminology? Collective Individual Term Term --------------- --------------------------------- parents mother, father siblings sister, brother inlaws mother-in-law, sister-in-law, etc. ? aunt, uncle grandparents grandmother, grandfather ? niece, nephew cousins ?, ? Regards! David D. Stubbs uucp: {ucbvax,decvax,pur-ee,ihnss,chico}!teklabs!davidst CSnet: teklabs!davidst@tek ARPAnet: teklabs!davidst.tek@rand-relay USPS: David D. Stubbs Electronic Systems Laboratory, MS 50-383 Tektronix, Inc. PO Box 500 Beaverton OR 97077 Phone: 503-627-2627 -- David D. Stubbs
dave@utcsrgv.UUCP (Dave Sherman) (09/14/83)
We usually have no term for a relative name simply because it wasn't important enough to distinguish it for long enough for the language to develop a term. There are many others that you didn't point out: 1. brother-in-law (wife's brother) != brother-in-law (sister's husband) 2. maternal grandfather vs. paternal grandfather. The use of "maternal" and "paternal" has developed recently in response to a greater need to distinguish them. 3. There is no word in English equivalent to the Yiddish "mechutonim". These are one's child's in-laws. (That is, your parents and your in-laws are mechutonim to each other.) In some societies, this relationship was/is important enough to merit its own title. The same kind of thing happens with pronouns, too. Some languages have two words for "we": the inclusive we, which includes the listener, and the exclusive we, which excludes the listener. This distinction is quite useful ("Can we go out tonight?" will have quite different meanings, for example). Dave Sherman -- {cornell,decvax,floyd,ihnp4,linus,utzoo,uw-beaver,watmath}!utcsrgv!lsuc!dave
ntt@dciem.UUCP (Mark Brader) (09/14/83)
Dave Sherman (utcsrgv!lsuc!dave) writes:
There is no word in English equivalent to the Yiddish "mechutonim".
These are one's child's in-laws. (That is, your parents and your
in-laws are mechutonim to each other.) In some societies, this
relationship was/is important enough to merit its own title.
In the movie "The In-Laws", the title characters where mechutonim, or to
be exact, they were about to be. One of them was always explaining
his relationship to the other thus: "He's going to be my in-law. His son
is marrying my daughter." (or maybe the other way around)
Another "relative" distinction English doesn't make is among the four
kinds of aunts: {mo|fa}ther's {sister | brother's wife}, and similarly
for uncles. Latin distinguished two kinds of aunts ({fa|mo}ther's sister)
and similarly with uncles; I think the respective words were tanta, anita,
patrvvs, and avvncvlvs, but I'm not sure about the first two, or whether
spouses counted. (Note: the last two are normally writeen patruus and
avunculus, but the u-v distinction was not made in Roman times.)
Mark Brader, NTT Systems Inc., Toronto -- decvax!utzoo!dciem!ntt
halle1@houxz.UUCP (09/14/83)
If I remember my high school French (and foreign films) correctly, cousin= cousin(m) or cousine(f)
ptw@vaxine.UUCP (P. T. Withington) (09/15/83)
The exclusive "we" in English is "you": "Can you go out tonight?" has a distinct meaning. 't` --Tucker (ptw@vaxine.UUCP) ~
dave@utcsrgv.UUCP (Dave Sherman) (09/16/83)
Sorry, Tucker, the exclusive "we" in English is *not* "you". You may be able to use "you" in its place in the phrase "Can we go out tonight". But how about these: We're going to the movies. ("See you later!") [Husband to wife] "Yes, we did visit Washington" (...when I was a little boy, with my parents) etc. There are clearly two "we"s with different meanings in English. Dave Sherman -- {cornell,decvax,floyd,ihnp4,linus,utzoo,uw-beaver,watmath}!utcsrgv!lsuc!dave
jgpo@iwu1c.UUCP (09/16/83)
======================================================================== The exclusive "we" in English is "you": "Can you go out tonight?" has a distinct meaning. 't` --Tucker (ptw@vaxine.UUCP) ~ ======================================================================== I don't think so. The exclusive "we" and the "you" are two entirely different things. Picture two kids talking to their mother. One asks, "May we drive to the beach today?" This, presumably, includes both siblings *AND* Mom (assuming the kids are too young to drive). Now, if one of the kids asks, "May we play in the yard after lunch?" it is ambiguous whether the "we" includes Mom or not. Contrast this to a kid, asking both parents, "Are you going out tonight?" This construct unambiguously refers to the parents only. The exclusive "we" excludes the listener. The "you" excludes the speaker. They are *NOT* the same thing. John Opalko
ptw@vaxine.UUCP (P. T. Withington) (09/20/83)
Argh! My remark was made in jest. "Can you go to dinner?" does have a *distinct* meaning. 't` --Tucker (ptw@vaxine.UUCP) ~
dje@5941ux.UUCP (09/21/83)
Regarding the inclusive vs. exclusive "we" -- the artificial language LOGLAN has the following solution: "mu" means the "I and you" kind of we (inclusive); "mia" is the "I and he/she" kind of we (exclusive). Incidentally, the additional compound pronouns "mie," "mii," "mio" and "miu" are also exclusive first person plurals, coexisting with "mia" to let the speaker group him/herself with different third persons. Thus, "mia" is translated as "X and I," "mie" as "Y and I," and so on. Dave Ellis / Bell Labs, Piscataway NJ ...!{hocda,ihnp4}!houxm!houxf!5941ux!dje ...!floyd!vax135!ariel!houti!hogpc!houxm!houxf!5941ux!dje
ashwin@uicsl.UUCP (09/22/83)
#R:teklabs:-243500:uicsl:8600017:000:1640 uicsl!ashwin Sep 21 14:40:00 1983 German has two distinct words for male-cousin and female-cousin. Hindi, along with most other languages and dialects in India, has distinct words for the various types of uncles and aunts. Thus: chacha father's younger brother chachi wife of chacha tau father's elder brother tai wife of tau phoophi or bua father's sister phoopha husband of phoophi mama mother's brother mami wife of mama mausi mother's sister mausa husband of mausi Note that your father's brother is named differently, according to whether he is elder to or younger than your father. This probably arose due to the importance of the eldest son in a patriarchical society. Then there are grandparents: nana father of mother nani mother of mother dada father of father dadi mother of father In each of the above, the suffix 'ji' is usually added as a mark of respect. As an aside, 'ji' is also appended on to the ends of names, or other relationship tokens (like (elder)-brother) for the same purpose. All cousins are 'bhai' (brother) or 'bahen' (sister), and if you need to specify the relationship, you prefix an adjectival form derived from the relationship of the cousin's parents to you. Finally, there are names for other relationships, like sister-of-husband, mother-of-husband, husband-of-sister-of-wife (derived from sister-of-wife), and so forth... Ashwin Ram Coordinated Science Lab University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign ...!uiucdcs!uicsl!ashwin ...!uiucdcs!ram
dinitz@uicsl.UUCP (09/27/83)
#R:teklabs:-243500:uicsl:8600015:000:551 uicsl!dinitz Sep 20 09:23:00 1983 Swedish distinguishes between maternal and paternal grandparents in an agglutinatinative fashion. Mormor = mother's mother Farmor = father's mother etc. I'd like to ask anyone who knows languages spoken (or formerly spoken) by cultures with a heavily tribal-based society to describe the kinship terms available in those languages (e.g. Irish and a host of Asian, Australian, African and Amerindian languages). In particular, What kinds of relationships bewteen clans and tribal subdivisions exist? ----Rick Dinitz (...!uiucdsc!uicsl!dinitz)