stuart@rochester.UUCP (Stuart Friedberg) (02/10/84)
From: Stuart Friedberg <stuart>
This is a further response to Ron Evan's message "Who remembers
Loglan?" In addition to Bruce Cohen's recent archive posting, I have
recorded the following messages concerning Loglan. I have edited out
messages Bruce posted, so the following might not stand alone.
I would be delighted to learn something *new* about Loglan, like its
current availablity in print, and to see some *new* discussion. Now
that the archives have been dusted off, let's not repeat what's just
been regurgitated, please.
PS: apropos of nothing in particular, did anyone notice that Bruce's
message had a posting date of 15 Feb 84? It was received here on 10
Feb 84!
Stu Friedberg
{seismo, allegra}!rochester!stuart UUCP
stuart@rochester ARPA
----------------------------------
>From seismo!rlgvax!jack Sun May 1 00:21:39 1983
Subject: Loglan Grammar
Newsgroups: net.nlang
Status: RO
A few subscribers to net.nlang have expressed some curiosity
about Loglan. I am responding with a little information
about the language. If people express more interest, I may
leak more information.
Since I am communicating to you without voice, if I'm to give
any examples, I must first address the written language, so
you will know how to pronounce the examples. However, since
it took me a 49 line letter to explain writing, I'll jump
into some grammar notes without examples in this submission.
Each Loglan word falls in one of three classes: names,
predicate words, and "little words". A listener or reader
can tell into which of these classes any word falls without
necessarily knowing its meaning.
The entire extralingual semantic load is carried by the names
and predicate words. Predicate words, which are
syntactically interchangable (except that some don't take as
many arguments as others), take the semantic place of common
nouns, verbs, adjectives, and adverbs in natural languages.
(If your English teacher told you a noun stands for a person,
place, or thing, she was lying. Point to the person, place,
or thing represented by the common noun "cat", if you can.
What a common noun really is is a word that can grammatically
fill the blank in a sentence form such as "I hit the ____.")
Any predicate can modify any predicate. It's just as easy to
say something is a catish kind of grey thing as to say it's a
grey cat.
Semantically, predicates assert some relation among things or
some property of something. To express the meaning of a
Loglan predicate in English, we give an English sentence with
blanks in it (the blanks are often represented in writing in
English about Loglan (English meta-Loglan?) by the non-Loglan
capital letters X, Y, W, H, and Q, in that order). For
example, there is a predicate word that means X sells Y to W
for price H. With one or two little words in front of it (an
article and possibly a "converter"), this word can be used to
refer to something as a seller, a buyer, merchandise, or a
price. (Referring to something by its having some property
is not the same as asserting that it has that property. An
example of the former in English is "The cat . . .", of the
latter, ". . . is a cat".)
Names in Loglan, like names in natural language, stand for
specific referents.
Articles, pronouns, conjunctions, the sentence separator,
tense markers, and words of several other parts of speech are
little words. Little words communicate about the structure
of the utterance (or the mood of the speaker).
The basic sentence form is:
[argument] predicate [argument [argument [argument]]]
The predicate part of the sentence can be a predicate word.
Some of the allowable argument forms are: a pronoun, a
predicate with an appropriate article in front of it, or a
name with the name-article "la" in front of it. (A little
word may have to separate the front argument from the
predicate, to avoid ambiguity about what modifies what).
This exposition has reached the point where Loglan examples
would be helpful, so I'll break off and see if anyone is
interested in knowing more. If so, I could post or send an
article about spelling and pronounciation (already written),
followed by examples.
Jack Waugh
Reston, Va.
{seismo | lime | mcnc | we13 | brl-bmd}!rlgvax!jack
>From seismo!rlgvax!jack Mon May 9 22:10:11 1983
Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site rochester.UUCP
Path: rochester!seismo!rlgvax!jack
From: jack@rlgvax.UUCP (Jack Waugh)
Newsgroups: net.nlang
Subject: Loglan Alphabet
Message-ID: <401@rlgvax.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 9-May-83 22:10:11 EDT
Article-I.D.: rlgvax.401
Posted: Mon May 9 22:10:11 1983
Date-Received: Tue, 10-May-83 01:55:42 EDT
Lines: 46
Status: RO
Since I am communicating to you without voice, if I'm to give
any examples, I must first address the written language, so
you will know how to pronounce the examples.
Loglan is supposed to have written-spoken isomorphism. For
each spoken phoneme, there is one letter and vice versa.
Fortunately for us who communicate with keyboards, the Loglan
alphabet is a subset of the Roman alphabet.
There are only five vowel sounds. They are far apart enough
that a listener is unlikely to confuse them even if the
speaker has a national accent.
a as in "father"
e as in "met"
i as in "machine"
o the first of the two vowel sounds in "note".
English speakers think of the "o" in "note" as
representing one sound, but many of us (probably
particularly Americans) always utter two sounds run
together in "note", "no", "low", "row", "rope",
etc. "Note" in Loglan phonetics is "nout". The
Loglan "o" is close to the trailing sound of "law".
u as in "blue"
The following consonants have the same value in Loglan as in
English: b, d, f, g (hard), k, l, m, n, p, r, s, t, v, and z.
The consonants that represent different sounds in Loglan and
English are c and j. C is the initial sound of "sheep". A
loglanist transcribing English sounds into Loglan phonetic
writing would write "cip" for "sheep" and "tcip" for "cheap"
("cip" and "tcip" are not Loglan words (except perhaps as
proper names)). J is the "zh" sound in "azure", "garage". J
in written English usually stands for the two sounds rendered
in Loglan writing "dj".
In 1975, Loglan used all the Roman letters except x, y, w, h,
and q. When books on Loglan are published again (any year
now, I expect), we will surely see the letter h in use, with
about the same sound as in English (aspirating the following
vowel) (at least as an acceptable allophone).
Jack Waugh
Reston, Va.
{seismo | allegra | lime | mcnc | we13 | brl-bmd}!rlgvax!jack
>From rochester!seismo!rlgvax!jack Wed May 18 17:43:02 1983
Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site rochester.UUCP
Path: rochester!seismo!rlgvax!jack
From: jack@rlgvax.UUCP (Jack Waugh)
Newsgroups: net.nlang
Subject: Loglan References and Recent Announcements
Message-ID: <455@rlgvax.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 18-May-83 17:43:02 EDT
Article-I.D.: rlgvax.455
Posted: Wed May 18 17:43:02 1983
Date-Received: Wed, 18-May-83 20:06:00 EDT
Lines: 158
Status: RO
As for references, first off, there's the Scientific
American article, "Loglan", by James Cooke Brown, starting
on Page 53 of Vol. 202, Number 6 (June, 1960). The language
has changed somewhat since 1960 (though not in the
pronunciation rules), but the article will tell you the
motivations behind the invention of the language and the
hopes for it.
Then, there were three books. These don't have ISBN
numbers (you won't find them in Books in Print), so you
probably won't be able to find them in a library. You might
try ordering from the Loglan Institute, Inc., 2261 Soledad
Rancho Road, San Diego, California 92109. I don't know if
any are still available.
I don't recommend the second book, "Loglan 2 -- Methods
of Construction", because it is surely obsolete by now.
The first book was James Cooke Brown: "Loglan 1: A
Logical Language", the Loglan Institute, 1975. This was the
basic introduction to the language.
I quote from the Foreword:
At the beginning of the Christmas
Holidays, 1955, I sat down before a
bright fire to commence what I hoped
would be a short paper on the possibility
of testing the social psychological
implications of the Sapir-Whorf
hypothesis. I meant to proceed by
showing that the construction of a tiny
model language, with a grammar borrowed
from the rules of modern logic, taught to
subjects of different nationalities, in a
laboratory setting, under conditions of
control, would permit a decisive test. I
have been writing appendices for that
paper ever since. . . . This book is one
of those appendices. . . .
The third book was James Cooke Brown and Lujoye Fuller
Brown, compilers: "Loglan 4 & 5: A Loglan-English/English-
Loglan Dictionary", The Loglan Institute, Inc., 1975.
There is a journal (written in English), "The
Loglanist" (often abbreviated "TL"). It comes out
irregularly. Subscription is by deposit. An issue costs
about $3.30 (probably a little more, next issue, whenever
that will be), including postage. If you write the
Institute, ask about the availability of back issues. I
have about 16 issues. The most recent issue I can find is
Volume 5, No. 3, December, 1981.
TL-subscribers have sometimes been asked to serve as
experimental subjects. The data have been used to guide an
effort known as the Great Morphological Revision (GMR). GMR
is just what the words say, a redesign of the way words are
made. It will imply a major dictionary rewrite.
Since the most recent issue of TL, I have received
three notices:
Dear TL-Subscriber: 15 Apr 82
The Institute is happy to announce that
the "dash to the summit" was successful.
In early March, MacGram [a YACC grammar]
parsed all 993 utterances of a vastly
expanded test-corpus, and it did so in a
satisfactorily humanoid way. So we now
have a machine grammar of Loglan. But
before publishing the new grammar
officially we would like to have your
reactions. And of course the corpus
itself, at 157 pp., is far too long ever
to be published in TL. So we want to
make both the grammar and the test-corpus
on which it was developed available to
you now as a notebook filler. . . .
Sincerely, Jim Brown
Dear TL-Subscriber: 22 Jul 82
GMR is done. The new decipherable
affixes give excellent coverage and the
average "tastiness" of the CPXs they
create (as measured by the TT5 [Taste
Test 5, one of the experiments I
mentioned] results) is gratifyingly high.
We're issuing a GMR Notebook of about the
same length as the McG Notebook for the
same price: $10 including bookmail. If
you want it, please return this card to
the Lees in Ann Arbor, who will be
mailing it. Please enclose a check if
your balance needs replenshing. You'll
find the Ann Arbor address and your
updated TL-balance on the opposite side
of this card. . . . It will be the first
edition of the workbook we'll use to
revise the dictionaries.
Sincerely, Jim Brown
The address on the back was The Loglan Institute, Inc.,
P.O. Box 7343, Ann Arbor, Mish. 48107.
The last notice exhorted me to join the corporation of
people who involve themselves with Loglan more deeply than
the TL-Subscribers.
Dear TL-Subscriber: 21 March 1983
Having completed the machine grammar
and morphological revision of Loglan, The
Institute is now preparing to "go public
again". New teaching materials are being
prepared and our Members are joining in
the work through Lognet. For example, a
vast dictionary expansion using the new
resolvable affixes is now under way in
its pages. (Lognet is a monthly
newsletter mailed first class to all
Members, airmail overseas. Dues are
still $50 US every two years.)
You have noticed that your issues of
TL have been slow in coming. We
apologize for that but wish to explain
why this slacking in our TL output has
been inevitable. We still have no paid
employees, and those who give their time
freely to Loglan are also those who
write most of the TL papers. These
people are now chiefly occupied in
readying learning tools for a wider
public.
TL will still appear, but, for a
time, infrequently. The next issue will
be a definitive one on our recent
grammatical and morphological work.
Probably there will be one more issue
this year. If that isn't enough to
satisfy your appetite for Loglan, why
don't you join the Corporation? Your
monthly Lognet will not only keep you
abreast of Loglan, but your dues money
will help boost our revenues during this
critical period. JCB
Jack Waugh
Reston, Va.
{seismo | allegra | mcnc | we13 | brl-bmd}!rlgvax!jack
>From rochester!seismo!rlgvax!jack Thu May 19 12:52:44 1983
Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site rochester.UUCP
Path: rochester!seismo!rlgvax!jack
From: jack@rlgvax.UUCP (Jack Waugh)
Newsgroups: net.nlang
Subject: Loglan Third Person Pronouns
Message-ID: <471@rlgvax.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 19-May-83 12:52:44 EDT
Article-I.D.: rlgvax.471
Posted: Thu May 19 12:52:44 1983
Date-Received: Thu, 19-May-83 21:04:44 EDT
Lines: 49
Status: RO
I have had several requests for more information about
Loglan. Accordingly, I am putting on the net everything I
have already taken time to type in on the subject in reply to
mail messages. What follows is the reply I sent to a query
about the specifics of the genderless pronouns:
The reason I didn't give the Loglan third person pronouns in
my net.nlang submission about Loglanists using these pronouns
in their English (to avoid gender connotation) is that I
didn't want to take the time to explain the rules for deter-
mining which pronoun to use for which antecedent.
There is an infinite number (aleph null) of Loglan third
person pronouns, although frequency of use falls off rapidly
somewhere around the third pronoun in the series. The first
five are "da", "de", "di", "do", and "du", in that order.
(The closest approximations to the pronunciation expressible
in American spelling are "dah", "deh", "dee", "daw", and
"do", respectively.)
As an example of the use of these pronouns embedded in Eng-
lish, suppose I said "The cat ate the rabbit." and you wanted
to claim that the rabbit was bigger than the cat. You could
say "Da is bigger than de."
The first unbound pronoun can be used to refer to the thing
referred to by the most recently uttered potential antecedent
(in the example, the rabbit). The second unbound pronoun, if
used, will refer to whatever is meant by the second most
recently uttered replacable construct (the cat), and so on.
Once a pronoun is used, it continues to refer to the same
thing until the end of the paragraph, or until a "long pause"
(hard to say how long) in speech. "Da", "de", "di", etc. are
not themselves potential antecedents, although demonstrative
pronouns are.
In Loglan, there are sentence forms for easily asking what
the current meaning of one of these pronouns ("da", "de",
etc. are known as "free variables") is, and for easily
explaining the current meaning of a variable. Loglanists
have found that they sometimes use the wrong variable but
explain it and neither the speaker nor the listener realizes
that the speaker chose the wrong one. Thus the explanation
overrides the binding rule in practice.
Jack Waugh
Reston, Va. (That's near DC)
{seismo | allegra | mcnc | we13 | brl-bmd}!rlgvax!jack
>From seismo!rlgvax!jack Thu Jun 23 21:49:04 1983
Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site rochester.UUCP
Posting-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site rlgvax.UUCP
Path: rochester!seismo!rlgvax!jack
From: jack@rlgvax.UUCP (Jack Waugh)
Newsgroups: net.nlang
Subject: Loglan Examples
Message-ID: <703@rlgvax.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 23-Jun-83 21:49:04 EDT
Article-I.D.: rlgvax.703
Posted: Thu Jun 23 21:49:04 1983
Date-Received: Thu, 23-Jun-83 22:27:27 EDT
Expires: Thu, 7-Jul-83 00:00:00 EDT
Organization: RLG Corp., Reston, VA
Lines: 130
Status: RO
QUICK PROUNCIATION GUIDE
a as in "father"
e as in "met"
i as in "machine"
o the first of the two vowel sounds in "note".
English speakers think of the "o" in "note" as
representing one sound, but many of us (probably
particularly Americans) always utter two sounds run
together in "note", "no", "low", "row", "rope",
etc. "Note" in Loglan phonetics is "nout". The
Loglan "o" is close to the trailing sound of "law".
u as in "blue"
The consonants that represent different sounds in Loglan and
English are c and j. C is the initial sound of "sheep". A
loglanist transcribing English sounds into Loglan phonetic
writing would write "cip" for "sheep" and "tcip" for "cheap"
("cip" and "tcip" are not Loglan words (except perhaps as
proper names)). J is the "zh" sound in "azure", "garage". J
in written English usually stands for the two sounds rendered
in Loglan writing "dj".
LOGLAN EXAMPLES
Loi Hello.
Katma Be a cat.
Blanu Be blue.
Blanu da Be bluer than X.
Da blanu de X is bluer than Y.
Da fa blanu de X will be bluer than Y.
Gacpi Be happy.
Mi na gacpi I am (now) happy.
Ei tu na gacpi Are you happy?
In examples above, I introduced two tense markers, <na> (I'll
adopt the convention of quoting Loglan in <> and English in
"") for present tense, and <fa> for future tense. There is
also <pa>.
Da pa katma X used to be a cat.
If the predicate is not preceeded by a tense marker, it is
tenseless. Just what this means is still up in the air. In
some places the literature claims it means potentiality.
Da sucmi X is a swimmer.
Da na sucmi X is swimming right now.
Da vedma de di do X sells Y to W for H.
Da ferlu de di do X falls from Y to W in gravity
field H.
Ra ba murki noa pa ferlu lo tricu
For all x, x is a monkey only if x has fallen from
the mass of all trees (whatever that means).
Vedma le murki mi feni dolra
Sell the monkey to me for fifty dollars.
Sia
Thank you.
Siu
You're welcome.
Ta bragagra tarsensi
That is magnificent astronomy.
Predicate words are always stressed on the next-to-last
syllable. So <ta bragagra tarsensi> is pronounced /
tabraGAGratarSENsi/.
Da matma de di
X is the mother of Y with father W.
Mi penso le po da matma mi
I think that X is my mother.
Mi cnida le po tu gacpi
I need you to be happy. (pigin translation: I need
the event-that you are-happy.)
Da po matma
X is motherhood.
Da matma
X is a mother (somebody's mother).
Da nu matma
X has a mother.
Da fu matma
X is a father.
Da farfu
X is a father.
Da bilti
X is beautiful.
Da bilti sucmi
X beautifully swims (timeless).
Da na bilti sucmi
X is swimming beautifully (now).
Da sucmi bilti
X is a swimmer-kind of beautiful thing.
Ei tu clivu lo po bilti
Do you love Beauty?
No clivu mi
Don't love me.
La Meris bilti fumna
Mary is a beautiful kind of woman.
Always pause after a name (<Meris> is a name. You can tell
because it ends in a consonant. <La> is an article meaning
"the-one-named").
La Meris fuma bilti
Mary is beautiful in a womanly fasion.
La Meris fumna e bilti
The-one-named <Meris> is a woman and is beautiful.
Kanvi ba jia murki e fumna
See a monkey-woman. (Pigin: See something x (<ba>)
that is-a-monkey and is-a-woman.)
Loa
Goodbye.
Jack Waugh
Reston, Va.
{seismo | allegra | mcnc | we13 | brl-bmd}!rlgvax!jack
>From Robert.Frederking@CMU-CS-A.ARPA Mon May 16 18:17:00 1983
From: Robert.Frederking@CMU-CS-A (C410RF60)
Date: 16 May 1983 1817-EDT (Monday)
Subject: Re: Esperanto and LOGLAN
Status: RO
I'm curious about something mentioned about these languages:
has anyone made any claims regarding the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis and
the fluent users of these languages?
Bob
------------------------------
>From seismo!philabs!linus!utzoo!mark Wed Jul 13 22:52:56 1983
Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site rochester.UUCP
Posting-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Path: rochester!seismo!philabs!linus!utzoo!mark
From: mark@utzoo.UUCP
Newsgroups: net.nlang
Subject: Re: linguistic bias in loglan
Message-ID: <3088@utzoo.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 13-Jul-83 22:52:56 EDT
Article-I.D.: utzoo.3088
Posted: Wed Jul 13 22:52:56 1983
Date-Received: Thu, 14-Jul-83 19:23:51 EDT
References: <439@mit-eddie.UUCP>
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 19
Status: RO
the loglan language is not supposed to be biased toward any one natural
language family. the basic vocabulary is chosen so as to be recognizable
to as large a fraction of the world's population as possible. this is
done by making words at least partially similar to their translation in
the eight most widely-spoken languages. english and chinese are tied for
first place, so the vocabulary should be easily learned by speakers of these
languages. (this basic vocabulary comprises about 1000 "primitives", from
which "complex" words may be formed as needed).
the grammer has points of similarity with english and the romance languages,
and is basically tenseless (though you can add tense if you need it), which
i gather is the way of chinese.
many or most of the active loglanists are linguists, but so far as i know
most or all are native english speakers. i am not in a position to judge
how english-biased loglan really is, as i know little of languages other
than english, and nothing of chinese.
mARK bLOORE
univ of toronto
{allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!mark
>From seismo!rlgvax!jack Sun Jul 24 16:38:07 1983
Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site rochester.UUCP
Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1a 7/7/83; site rlgvax.UUCP
Path: rochester!seismo!rlgvax!jack
From: jack@rlgvax.UUCP (Jack Waugh)
Newsgroups: net.nlang
Subject: Punning in Loglan
Message-ID: <888@rlgvax.UUCP>
Date: Sun, 24-Jul-83 16:38:07 EDT
Article-I.D.: rlgvax.888
Posted: Sun Jul 24 16:38:07 1983
Date-Received: Sun, 24-Jul-83 17:22:37 EDT
References: <1276@fortune.UUCP>, <857@rlgvax.UUCP>, <1288@fortune.UUCP>
Organization: Computer Consoles
Lines: 27
Status: RO
Yes, it is difficult to pun in Loglan. The only instance of anyone's
doing it of which I've heard involves naming.
Names in Loglan are readily recognizable; all names end in consonants,
but no other words do. There's an obligatory pause after a name.
There is no other formal rule about the formation of names. Some names
will surely be imitations of a person's English or other natural language
name. For example, the closest Loglan can come to "Jack" is <Djek>.
Some things have standard names, given in the dictionary: the sun is
<la Sol>; the moon is <la Lun>.
The Loglan books suggest that another way speakers will form names is
from predicate words. For example, to capture the meaning of the English
noun of direct address "Father" in say, "Father, please help me.", a
Loglanist will use <Far>, derived from the predicate word <farfu> (X is
the father of Y with mother W). Formally, <Far> is just a name, like
<Djek>; however, we are to suppose that a listener will guess that the
inventer of the name intended it to have some relation to <farfu>.
This kind of name forming can provide a mechanism for insult. To call
someone a dirty name, you *name* them with a name that sounds like
a word for whatever concept you want to insultingly associate with them.
James Cooke Brown, the person who initiated Loglan, says he called
(named) some of his students <Stud>, which could be related to
<stude> (X is a student at college/university Y in course of study W),
or <studa> (X is feces of Y).
>From seismo!harpo!gummo!whuxlb!pyuxll!eisx!npoiv!npois!hogpc!houxm!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!keller Fri Aug 12 22:44:01 1983
Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site rochester.UUCP
Path: rochester!seismo!harpo!gummo!whuxlb!pyuxll!eisx!npoiv!npois!hogpc!houxm!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!keller
From: keller@uicsl.UUCP
Newsgroups: net.nlang
Subject: A pointer to Loglan books - (nf)
Message-ID: <2561@uiucdcs.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 12-Aug-83 22:44:01 EDT
Article-I.D.: uiucdcs.2561
Posted: Fri Aug 12 22:44:01 1983
Date-Received: Sat, 13-Aug-83 21:00:34 EDT
Lines: 52
Status: RO
#N:uicsl:8600011:000:1882
uicsl!keller Aug 12 17:09:00 1983
I finally ran across the advertisement that introduced me to LOGLAN.
In Scientific American December 1975 page 119 the ad reads:
We apologize to those who have waited 15 years for us to say it,
but now we can say...
Loglan is (finally!) ready
Two books will be published this Winter:
Loglan 1: A Logical Language, a grammar and general introduction;
316pp; $7.50 hardback/ $4.50 paper (remember it's 1975)
Loglan 4 & 5: A Loglan-English/English-Loglan Dictionary,
16,000 English/4000 Loglan terms (4 to 1!)
532pp; $9.50 hardback/$5.50 paper.
To those who haven't been waiting these 15 years:
Loglan was developed to test the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis that
language limits thought. It does so by pushing those limits
outwards in some interesting new directions. For instance,
Loglan is:-
- syntactically unambiguous (you've got to say what you mean
and mean what you say);
- metaphysically parsimonious (its grammar makes the fewest
possible assumptions about the world);
- logically powerful (its grammar is symbolic logic made speakable);
- culturally neutral (its word-stock has been drawn from eight
natural languages); and
- very easily learned (its grammar is about a tenth the size
of English).
Its aficionados already believe that learning Loglan
"blows your mind." But research on this and other Whorfian questions
has been waiting for the tools. Now we can invite you to join us in
doing it.
Loglan, in short, is for researchers, world language buffs,
and people interested in finding out whether learning a radically
different second language really does expand their minds.
The Loglan Institute, Inc.
P.O. Box 12458 or P.O. Box 1785
Gainesville, FL 32602 Palm Springs, CA 92262
I don't know if these addresses are still good.
Shaun Keller ...pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!keller
>From seismo!hao!hplabs!sri-unix!VANBUER@USC-ECL Mon Sep 5 00:54:00 1983
Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site rochester.UUCP
Path: rochester!seismo!hao!hplabs!sri-unix!VANBUER@USC-ECL
From: VANBUER@USC-ECL@sri-unix.UUCP
Newsgroups: net.ai
Subject: Re: LOGLAN
Message-ID: <4826@sri-arpa.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 5-Sep-83 00:54:00 EDT
Article-I.D.: sri-arpa.4826
Posted: Mon Sep 5 00:54:00 1983
Date-Received: Mon, 5-Sep-83 01:25:37 EDT
Lines: 9
Status: RO
[...]
The Loglan institute is in the middle of a year long "quiet spell"
After several years of experiments with sounds, patching various small
logical details (e.g. two unambiguous ways to say "pretty little
girls"'s two interpretations), the Institute is busily preparing
materials on the new version, preparing to "go public" again in a
fairly big way.
Darrel J. Van Buer
>From seismo!harpo!gummo!whuxlb!pyuxll!abnjh!icu0 Tue Sep 6 18:15:17 1983
Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site rochester.UUCP
Path: rochester!seismo!harpo!gummo!whuxlb!pyuxll!abnjh!icu0
From: icu0@abnjh.UUCP (P. Denk)
Newsgroups: net.ai
Subject: Re: Loglan (POURNE@MIT)
Message-ID: <236@abnjh.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 6-Sep-83 18:15:17 EDT
Article-I.D.: abnjh.236
Posted: Tue Sep 6 18:15:17 1983
Date-Received: Wed, 7-Sep-83 11:16:28 EDT
Lines: 19
Status: RO
Someday I'll figure out this arpanet mail routing, but for now...
1. Rumour has it that SOMEONE at the Univ. of Washington (State of, NOT D.C.)
was working on the grammar online (UN*X, as I recall). I havn't yet
had the temerity to post a general inquiry regarding their locale. If they
read your request and respond, please POST it...some of us out here are also
interested.
2. A friend of mine at Ohio State has typed in (by hand!) the glossary from
Vol 1 (the laymans grammar) which could be useful for writing a "flashcard"
program, but both of us are too busy.
Art Wieners
(who will only be at this addr for this week,
but keep your modems open for a resurfacing
at da Labs...)
P.S...how can we route mail to thee, jerry?
>From seismo!philabs!cmcl2!floyd!whuxlb!pyuxll!eisx!npoiv!npois!hogpc!houxm!5941ux!dje Wed Sep 21 15:34:51 1983
Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site rochester.UUCP
Path: rochester!seismo!philabs!cmcl2!floyd!whuxlb!pyuxll!eisx!npoiv!npois!hogpc!houxm!5941ux!dje
From: dje@5941ux.UUCP
Newsgroups: net.nlang
Subject: Re: Re: Missing Words
Message-ID: <414@5941ux.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 21-Sep-83 15:34:51 EDT
Article-I.D.: 5941ux.414
Posted: Wed Sep 21 15:34:51 1983
Date-Received: Thu, 22-Sep-83 10:38:57 EDT
References: iwu1c.150
Lines: 14
Status: RO
Regarding the inclusive vs. exclusive "we" -- the artificial language LOGLAN
has the following solution:
"mu" means the "I and you" kind of we (inclusive);
"mia" is the "I and he/she" kind of we (exclusive).
Incidentally, the additional compound pronouns "mie," "mii," "mio" and "miu"
are also exclusive first person plurals, coexisting with "mia" to let the
speaker group him/herself with different third persons. Thus, "mia" is
translated as "X and I," "mie" as "Y and I," and so on.
Dave Ellis / Bell Labs, Piscataway NJ
...!{hocda,ihnp4}!houxm!houxf!5941ux!dje
...!floyd!vax135!ariel!houti!hogpc!houxm!houxf!5941ux!dje