[net.nlang] non-English Articles

tom@uwai.UUCP (11/11/84)

> > --
> > En j0diske kvinde der hedder "Maria"?  Det er da noget du tror!!
> 
> Jeg kende en finske kvinde som hedder Maria. Hvorfor skulle den j0diske vaere
> umulig?
> -- 
> 	Dr Memory
> 	...{amd,ucbvax,ihnp4}!qubix!jdb

Ok, all right already.  Enough is enough.  net.jokes is no place to submit
articles written in non-English languages.  Very few people can read them,
and since NO ONE EVER BOTHERS TO SUPPLY TRANSLATIONS, this is very frustrating
to the majority of us.  

I therefore propose the creation of a new group, net.flang, with subgroups
such as net.flang.spanish, net.flang.french, net.flang.russian, 
net.flang.yiddish, net.flang.norwegian, etc.  Articles posted to these 
groups would not necessarily be about that particular language, but they
would be written *in* that language.  This way those of us with more than
one tongue might communicate between ourselves w/o driving the rest of
the net crazy.  

I must admit that while I believe that this idea has much merit, I somewhat
doubt whether it shall be implemented.  I can't help remembering the old 
joke:
	What do you call a man who speaks three languages:
		trilingual.
	What do you call a man who speaks two languages:
		bilingual.
	What do you call a man who speaks one language:
		American.

tom
-- 

Tom Christiansen
University of Wisconsin
Computer Science Systems Lab 
...!{allegra,heurikon,ihnp4,seismo,uwm-evax}!uwvax!tom
tom@wisc-crys.arpa

steven@mcvax.UUCP (Steven Pemberton) (11/12/84)

In article <154@uwai.UUCP> tom@uwai.UUCP suggests:
> I therefore propose the creation of a new group, net.flang, with subgroups
> such as net.flang.spanish, net.flang.french, net.flang.russian,  [etc etc]
...
> 	What do you call a man who speaks one language:
> 		American.

And what do you call someone on an international network who calls Spanish,
French, Russian (etc) _f_o_r_e_i_g_n languages?

steven@mcvax.UUCP (Steven Pemberton) (11/13/84)

<6173@mcvax.UUCP> cancelled from rn.

aeb@turing.UUCP (11/13/84)

> I therefore propose the creation of a new group, net.flang, with subgroups
> such as net.flang.spanish, net.flang.french, net.flang.russian, 
> net.flang.yiddish, net.flang.norwegian, etc.  Articles posted to these 
> groups would not necessarily be about that particular language, but they
> would be written *in* that language. 

And next each of these groups would get subgroups about politics, games,
jokes, unix-wizards, math ? And where do you put the followup written in
spanish to an article written in danish ?
No, a much better idea would be to ask people writing in e.g. german to
add (german) in the subject line, just as people now add (rot13) when
a joke is encrypted. That way people that do not understand that particular
language can hit 'n', or even write a filter to throw such articles away.
-- 
      Andries Brouwer -- CWI, Amsterdam -- {philabs,decvax}!mcvax!aeb

nabiel@erix.UUCP (Nabiel Elshiewy) (11/13/84)

>And what do you call someone on an international network who calls Spanish,
>French, Russian (etc) _f_o_r_e_i_g_n languages?

Is it really an international network ????

tom@uwai.UUCP (11/13/84)

> In article <154@uwai.UUCP> tom@uwai.UUCP suggests:
> > I therefore propose the creation of a new group, net.flang, with subgroups
> > such as net.flang.spanish, net.flang.french, net.flang.russian,  [etc etc]
> ...
> > 	What do you call a man who speaks one language:
> > 		American.
> 
> And what do you call someone on an international network who calls Spanish,
> French, Russian (etc) foreign languages?

Ok, I'm embarassed.  I guess my only plea is that while this *is* an inter-
national network, the primary language used on it is English, thus making
others ``foreign'' to it.  Call it net.nlang.french if net.flang.french is
offensive.  I really *try* to be more sensitive to this than the
"average fellow American", even to the point of avoiding reserving
the word "American" to US citizens, since this tends to enfuriate the
Argentines and Chileans I know.  Having lived in Europe for an extended
length of time, I *am* aware that Europeans often take offense, and rightly 
so, to having their tongue referred to as foreign.  

In summary, forgive the slip of the ``tongue''.

tom
-- 

Tom Christiansen
University of Wisconsin
Computer Science Systems Lab 
...!{allegra,heurikon,ihnp4,seismo,uwm-evax}!uwvax!tom
tom@wisc-crys.arpa

tom@uwai.UUCP (11/13/84)

> > I therefore propose the creation of a new group, net.flang, with subgroups
> > such as net.flang.spanish, net.flang.french, net.flang.russian, 
> > net.flang.yiddish, net.flang.norwegian, etc.  Articles posted to these 
> > groups would not necessarily be about that particular language, but they
> > would be written *in* that language. 
> 
> And next each of these groups would get subgroups about politics, games,
> jokes, unix-wizards, math ? And where do you put the followup written in
> spanish to an article written in danish ?
> No, a much better idea would be to ask people writing in e.g. german to
> add (german) in the subject line, just as people now add (rot13) when
> a joke is encrypted. That way people that do not understand that particular
> language can hit 'n', or even write a filter to throw such articles away.
> -- 
>       Andries Brouwer -- CWI, Amsterdam -- {philabs,decvax}!mcvax!aeb

Great idea!  I withdraw my earlier suggestion and 2nd Andries'.

tom
-- 

Tom Christiansen
University of Wisconsin
Computer Science Systems Lab 
...!{allegra,heurikon,ihnp4,seismo,uwm-evax}!uwvax!tom
tom@wisc-crys.arpa

presley@mhuxj.UUCP (Joe Presley) (11/13/84)

> And what do you call someone on an international network who calls Spanish,
> French, Russian (etc) foreign languages?

Paraphrasing an * book:

"Mind you, I have nothing against foreigners, but these foreigners
aren't from our country!" :-)
-- 

-> Joe Presley (ihnp4!j.presley)

keld@diku.UUCP (Keld J|rn Simonsen) (11/14/84)

<dette er en test>

Well, I consider the net.flang.all groups as another American
imperialist gimmick. Danish is by no means *foreign* to me !

I think the national language could be used on the net in several
ways: one is to have a national subgroup with only distribution
in the country, in Denmark we have the dk. group. Then you could
have all kinds of subgroups to that. That would be an elaborate
scheme if you would like to have all the groups of net. Another 
way is to post discussion to the net group, but restrict distribution
to the national group, in casu dk. 
   On the European net, eunet, we have seen discussions in other
languages, e.g. German, French and Finnish(!), but as Europe is
more oriented to more languages, I think this is OK. 

Keld Simonsen, DIKU            keld@diku.UUCP

upen@watarts.UUCP (Ue-Li Pen (Willie)) (11/14/84)

  or even better, have a command in the readnews interface to translate on
the run, just like rot13 jokes get decoded...
  (actually, I heard that there are some people in Europe trying to write
databases that can be used in several different languages by translating   
automatically).  :-)

					Ue-Li Pen

riddle@ut-sally.UUCP (Prentiss Riddle) (11/14/84)

Former-Newsgroups: net.jokes,net.jokes.d,net.news.group,net.nlang

I hate to be a spoilsport, but shouldn't this discussion be moved to net.nlang?

hans@log-hb.UUCP (Hans Albertsson) (11/14/84)

In article <220@turing.UUCP> aeb@turing.UUCP writes:
>No, a much better idea would be to ask people writing in e.g. german to
>add (german) in the subject line, just as people now add (rot13) when
>a joke is encrypted. That way people that do not understand that particular
>language can hit 'n', or even write a filter to throw such articles away.

Then we add a command ( ^G ? ) to do the decryption for us.... :-)


-- 
Hans Albertsson, USENET/uucp: {decvax,philabs}!mcvax!enea!log-hb!hans
Real World:  TeleLOGIC AB, Box 1001, S-14901 Nynashamn,SWEDEN

mark@cbosgd.UUCP (Mark Horton) (11/14/84)

There are already a group of newsgroups net.nlang.all which
were created for this exact purpose.  "nlang" stands for "natural
language" to distinguish it from "lang" which already existed and
means "computer language."  Certainly there is no need for a
net.flang.all in addition.

However, the suggestion that articles written in a language other
than the default (this means English for most net.all groups) be
marked "(auf Deutsch)" or whatever in the subject line seems like a
good one.  Unless someone can argue that the message should be in
English "(in German)" so non-speakers can pick it out and understand it.

I am still, however, unclear on the advantage to posting such
messages in the first place.  If you want to be understood by
all the people on the net, use English.  If there is some reason
why an article really needs to be in another language, perhaps a
joke that doesn't translate well, then I think it would be best
to post it to the newsgroup appropriate to the topic (e.g. net.jokes)
and restrict the distribution.  The benefit to those few speakers of
that language who live outside the area where that language is used
is probably outweighed by the cost to transmit your article to over
1000 machines, most of which are populated by people who won't
understand your message.

Of course, for articles that are for local distribution anyway (such
as dk.all) local customs should apply.

	Mark Horton

tom@uwai.UUCP (11/15/84)

> Well, I consider the net.flang.all groups as another American
> imperialist gimmick. Danish is by no means *foreign* to me !

``another American imperialist gimmick''??????  This sounds *exactly* like
some mccarthyist spouting off with the equally ludicrous ``another red
Communist plot''; surely there are alternatives to these trite, over-used
political cliches?
-- 

Tom Christiansen
University of Wisconsin
Computer Science Systems Lab 
...!{allegra,heurikon,ihnp4,seismo,uwm-evax}!uwvax!tom
tom@wisc-crys.arpa

davis@hplabs.UUCP (Jim Davis) (11/15/84)

[line eater's]

Jim4>     What about a new keyword "Language:" for the header.
Jim4> I think that that would be an even better solution than Andries'.
Jim4> It could be automatic at sites that do all their work in a
Jim4> particular language, overridden only on demand.  It would
Jim4> allow automatic filtering, and those great AI projects
Jim4> could try out automatic translation on news.

Tom1> I therefore propose the creation of a new group, net.flang, with subgroups
Tom1> such as net.flang.spanish, net.flang.french, net.flang.russian, 
Tom1> net.flang.yiddish, net.flang.norwegian, etc.  Articles posted to these 
Tom1> groups would not necessarily be about that particular language, but they
Tom1> would be written *in* that language. 

AB2> No, a much better idea would be to ask people writing in e.g. german to
AB2> add (german) in the subject line, just as people now add (rot13) when
AB2> a joke is encrypted. That way people that do not understand that particular
AB2> language can hit 'n', or even write a filter to throw such articles away.
AB2>       Andries Brouwer -- CWI, Amsterdam -- {philabs,decvax}!mcvax!aeb

Tom3> Great idea!  I withdraw my earlier suggestion and 2nd Andries'.
Tom3> Tom Christiansen University of Wisconsin
-- 
					 Jim Davis (James W Davis)
				{any_of_the_biggies} !hplabs!davis
					  davis%hp-labs@csnet-relay
------------------------------------------------------------------

christer@ttds.UUCP (Christer Johansson) (11/15/84)

In article <6175@mcvax.UUCP> steven@mcvax.UUCP (Steven Pemberton) writes:
>In article <154@uwai.UUCP> tom@uwai.UUCP suggests:
>> I therefore propose the creation of a new group, net.flang, with subgroups
>> such as net.flang.spanish, net.flang.french, net.flang.russian,  [etc etc]
>...
>> 	What do you call a man who speaks one language:
>> 		American.
>
>And what do you call someone on an international network who calls Spanish,
>French, Russian (etc) _f_o_r_e_i_g_n languages?

Esperantist?

esa@kvvax4.UUCP (Esa K Viitala) (11/15/84)

	>   On the European net, eunet, we have seen discussions in other
	>languages, e.g. German, French and Finnish(!), but as Europe is
						    ^
				What is this supposed to mean???
				A danish (&$#%!!) special char?

	>more oriented to more languages, I think this is OK.

Discussions! Far from it! I'd call them monologues.  I was the one to
post an article in Finnish and the answers I got were generated by
crypt or some such thing. So, enough is enough, let's stick to one
*foreign* language only: English.

National and more local groups may use what ever language they find
fit.
-- 

---ekv,  {seismo,decvax,philabs}!mcvax!kvport!{kvvax4,kvvax9}!esa

crandell@ut-sally.UUCP (Jim Crandell) (11/15/84)

Wow, what a relief!  I thought my D key was broken.
-- 

    Jim Crandell, C. S. Dept., The University of Texas at Austin
               {ihnp4,seismo,ctvax}!ut-sally!crandell

jeffw@tekecs.UUCP (Jeff Winslow) (11/16/84)

Please delete net.jokes from the newsgroup list if you follow up this
subject. Net.jokes is for jokes ONLY, not discussions.

So why isn't there a joke here? 

What makes you think there isn't?

Can't you read invisiblish?

					Who, me?
				         Jeff Winslow

gjk@talcott.UUCP (Greg J Kuperberg) (11/17/84)

> In article <154@uwai.UUCP> tom@uwai.UUCP suggests:
> > I therefore propose the creation of a new group, net.flang, with subgroups
> > such as net.flang.spanish, net.flang.french, net.flang.russian,  [etc etc]
> ...
> > 	What do you call a man who speaks one language:
> > 		American.
> 
> And what do you call someone on an international network who calls Spanish,
> French, Russian (etc) _f_o_r_e_i_g_n languages?

Let's go by majority rule here.  How many sites are there outside of
Europe?  You can almost count them on your fingers (you may need your
toes).

More seriously, one reason that most Americans don't speak a foreign
language is that the while then non-English Occident is certainly more
populous than the English-speaking countries, the English-speaking
countries have more money than the rest of the West.  Now you might think
that that's a snotty attitude (and you're right), but I counter:  How many
Europeans speak Chinese?

dt@ist.UUCP (David Tilbrook) (11/18/84)

>> Well, I consider the net.flang.all groups as another American
>> imperialist gimmick. Danish is by no means *foreign* to me !

> ``another American imperialist gimmick''??????  This sounds *exactly* like
> some mccarthyist spouting off with the equally ludicrous ``another red
> Communist plot''; surely there are alternatives to these trite, over-used
> political cliches?

Better yet what about alternatives for trite, over-used politicians?

Like Keld, I don't see the necessity for using the funny face
to indicate this is Dane tongue in cheek.

But I do ask our expert on American foreign relationship from Wisconsin
to give us another phrase to describe Americans using muscle to protect
their own vested interest.  It is one of those phrases the rest of the
world needs, somewhat like slop-bucket.
-- 
David Tilbrook		{inset, root44, mcvax, qtlon}!ist!dt
Imperial Software Technology, London England

nabiel@erix.UUCP (Nabiel Elshiewy) (11/20/84)

 > How many Europeans speak Chinese?

They don't speak Chinese. Europeans EAT Chinese and they are MANY.



[I am the cannibal who ate up the missioner and digested all his knowledge.]

raghu@rlgvax.UUCP (Raghu Raghunathan) (11/22/84)

> 
> More seriously, one reason that most Americans don't speak a foreign
> language is that the while then non-English Occident is certainly more
> populous than the English-speaking countries, the English-speaking
> countries have more money than the rest of the West.

	Seems to me some Amelicans don't wlite English well either. :-)

phil@amdcad.UUCP (Phil Ngai) (11/23/84)

>  > How many Europeans speak Chinese?
> 
> They don't speak Chinese. Europeans EAT Chinese and they are MANY.

Why don't you eat me, white boy?
-- 
 California Immigrant

 Phil Ngai (408) 749-5790
 UUCP: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra,intelca}!amd!phil
 ARPA: amdcad!phil@decwrl.ARPA