barryg@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Barry Gold) (01/16/85)
As I understand it, this is because Lei is serving as a pronoun for the noun "excelenzia" (Excellency) rather than for any egalitarian reason. Nor does it seem to have had much effect on enhancing the non-sexual chauvinism of Italian culture. --Lee Gold
rob@ptsfa.UUCP (Rob Bernardo) (01/19/85)
> As I understand it, this is because Lei is serving as a pronoun for the > noun "excelenzia" (Excellency) rather than for any egalitarian reason. > Nor does it seem to have had much effect on enhancing the non-sexual > chauvinism of Italian culture. > In the Romance languages and many other European languages, grammatical gender has a lesser impact than it does in English. In English, inanimate objects (with a few exceptions like ships) are given gender; i.e. gender in English is a semantic notion reflecting the actual (or imagined) gender of the referent. In languages like Italian, gender is additionally a grammatical category since words for all inanimate objects are categorized as masculine or feminine. Note that it is the WORD, not the object, that has the grammatical gender since synonyms for the same object need not have the same grammatical gender. However, in these languages, the concepts of grammatical gender and real-world gender are not separate since almost all words refering to real-world males and females are grammatical masculine and feminine, respectively. In the case of Italian "Lei", the use of a GRAMMATICALLY feminine pronoun is a reflection of the fact that it's antecendent is a grammatically feminine noun, "excelenzia". -- Rob Bernardo, Pacific Bell, San Francisco, California {ihnp4,ucbvax,cbosgd,decwrl,amd70,fortune,zehntel}!dual!ptsfa!rob
mgv@duke.UUCP (Marco G. Valtorta) (01/20/85)
In a recent article on this subject, Lee Gold says that "Lei" is used in Italian as a courtesy form for "you," because it stands for "excelenzia," meaning "Excellency." I don't know where he got this information. It does not make much sense to me. In any case, the correct Italian word is "eccellenza." Lee Gold concludes his note by saying that the use of "Lei" does not "seem to have had much effect on enhancing the non-sexual chauvinism of Italian culture." I don't understand what "non-sexual chauvinism" means. I suspect Lee Gold means "male chauvinism." If Mr. Gold is American, he may not know that in Italy a female cannot be paid less that a male doing the same job, and that Italian law prohibits discrimination based on sex. The party that has dominated Italian politics since WW2, the Christian Democratic Party, has consistently been favorable to women's problems and needs. Apart from the above-mentioned anti-discrimination law, one should remember the law that made brothels illegal (1953--written by a woman senator), and pro-family laws, which often, in concrete cases, end up favoring women. For example, in Italy, a family's income tax is no greater than the sum of the taxes that would be payed by its members if they were not married. As another example, there are legal provisions for the working mother that make it possible for her to take longer leaves of absence without pay than in most American companies. The whole community, not just a company, shares the burden of this. Mr. Gold may be confused by the fact that groups of self-defined "feminists," usually members of extreme left parties, attack the CD party. Major among these groups is the "League of Women," an organization for Communist Women.
barryg@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Barry Gold) (01/21/85)
Thanks for the information on Italian culture. Here's some for you in return. I am not "Mr. Gold." I am "Mrs. Gold." Even if you're feeling like being formally snide, it might be wise not to insist on using gender-based honorifics if you're not SURE of the gender of your opponent. My opinions of Italian culture have been less influenced by news articles about the country's laws and/or politics than by movies/books which seem to show how social interactions worked. Admittedly I'm hopelessly out of date. The last such data I've got is stuff like the Don Camillo books and "Marriage, Italian Style." --Lee Gold