[net.nlang] Guys and goys, and Halloween

jpexg@mit-hermes.ARPA (John Purbrick) (02/08/85)

| I wonder to
| what extent the popularity of Guy Fawkes Day in England rises from its
| assimilation with the old All Hallows Eve and/or Samhain.


I'm quite certain that there is a link, and that there is an involvement with
pagan ritual, involving the construction of a human figure, which is then 
burned, maybe along with a few real humans. Perhaps it's done in fall to
remind the gods to bring the sun back again.

For those unlucky enough not to have grown up with Guy Fawkes Day, what happens
is that a week or so in advance, kids make dummies out of old clothes; these 
are then displayed on sidewalks with the incantation "Penny for the Guy?"
although more than a penny is expected nowadays. On the night of Nov 5, the 
dummy is burned, and the kids spend the pennies on fireworks (not so common
any more, for safety reasons; large public displays are more likely). The guy
is supposed to represent Guido Fawkes, the man who almost blew up James I and
Parliament in 1605, but note its similarity to a jack o'lantern--and especially
to a "harvest dolly" which kids make in some districts in America at Halloween.
By contrast, Halloween is scarcely noticed in England.

So what seems to happen is
1) An autumn festival
2) Involving flimsy human effigies
3) Which are in some way associated with fire
4) While children receive treats (as a symbol of renewal?)

Does anyone really *know* anything about the pre-Christian origins of 
Halloween-Guy Fawkes? Might Samhain have anything to do with it?