bob@cadovax.UUCP (Bob "Kat" Kaplan) (04/17/85)
How come people call it "tuna fish" instead of just "tuna"? They never say "salmon fish" or "trout fish". And it's not as though there are types of tuna that aren't fish (e.g., "tuna bird," etc.). So why not just call it "tuna"? -- Bob Kaplan "Our love burns like fire, then turns to ashes."
slb@drutx.UUCP (Sue Brezden) (04/20/85)
I have never refered to "tuna fish"--I always say "tuna".
I believe that I have heard "tuna fish" before because it doesn't
sound totally wrong, but just like something I wouldn't say.
I am from Nebraska, and have lived in the western U.S. all my
life. Is this possibly a regionalism?
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Real World: Room 1B17 Net World: ihnp4!drutx!slb
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Westminster, Co. 80234
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~gadfly@ihu1m.UUCP (Gadfly) (04/21/85)
--
I heard (I think from John Ciardi) that "tuna" was an advertising
ploy, you know, like Greenland. The fish was commonly known (and
still is by fishermen) as "horse mackerel", and was caught solely
for use as bait. Then some wise guy found that it didn't taste
half bad (perhaps having been introduced to it in the Orient), but
had to do something about the name to ensure popular acceptance.
A more modern Greenlandism is "kiwi fruit". Can a New Zealander
out there tell us what you really call the thing?
--
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..ihnp4!iwsl8!ken *** ***aeb@mcvax.UUCP (Andries Brouwer) (04/21/85)
In article <6390@boring.UUCP> lambert@boring.UUCP (Lambert Meertens) writes: >A similar phenomenon occurs in German "Haifisch" = shark, where "Hai" by >itself has no other meaning than shark. Note also that tuna fish in German >is "Thunfisch", where "Thun" by itself is not a German word. Danish also >has "tunfisk", but no stand-alone "tun". These words are relatively young: German has Hai(fisch) and Thunfisch since the 16th century. But at the time Thunfisch was adopted, thun was the spelling for 'to do' (it is often still pronounced like that). Similarly German has Wal(fisch) and Dutch walvis 'whale' while Wal has several other meanings (e.g. 'wall') - English and Danish are content with whale and hval since no confusion is possible. By the way, English also has tunny.
lambert@boring.UUCP (04/21/85)
> How come people call it "tuna fish" instead of just "tuna"? They > never say "salmon fish" or "trout fish". And it's not as though > there are types of tuna that aren't fish (e.g., "tuna bird," etc.). > So why not just call it "tuna"? There are "tuna pears", which are (edible) prickly pears, as far as I know normally called just "tuna", without further modifier(!). I do not know if this is the explanation for the use of the modifier "fish" in "tuna fish". A similar phenomenon occurs in German "Haifisch" = shark, where "Hai" by itself has no other meaning than shark. Note also that tuna fish in German is "Thunfisch", where "Thun" by itself is not a German word. Danish also has "tunfisk", but no stand-alone "tun" (but, as far as I know, simply "haj" and no nonsense about "hajfisk".) Again, I do not know if this is a coincidence or not. Dutch, French, Italian and Spanish are content with just, respectively, "tonijn", "thon", "tonno" and "atun"; "tonijnvis" in Dutch, although understandable, sounds ridiculous. -- Lambert Meertens ...!{seismo,okstate,garfield,decvax,philabs}!lambert@mcvax.UUCP CWI (Centre for Mathematics and Computer Science), Amsterdam
aeb@mcvax.UUCP (Andries Brouwer) (04/22/85)
In article <5070@ukc.UUCP> ncg@ukc.UUCP (Nigel Gale) writes: >Tuna Fish is an Americanism, I think. Yes, and so was tuna - it is the Caribbean Spanish word. >I don't know of anyone else who uses the redundant 'fish'. >But I could be wrong. (Am I supposed to say tuna fish?) No, you were supposed to say tunny (fish).
sra@oddjob.UUCP (Scott R. Anderson) (04/22/85)
In article <> gadfly@ihu1m.UUCP (Gadfly) writes: >-- >I heard (I think from John Ciardi) that "tuna" was an advertising >ploy, you know, like Greenland. The fish was commonly known (and >still is by fishermen) as "horse mackerel", and was caught solely >for use as bait. The name tuna, or tunny as it is known in some places, comes from Latin by way of Spanish; it refers to fish of the genus "Thunnus" (American Heritage Dictionary). AHD also states that "tuna fish" is an alternate name for the canned stuff (as opposed to an individual fish). This agrees with my usage (as a native Wisconsinite): a fish is a tuna, but when processed and canned, it's usually tuna fish. Scott Anderson ihnp4!oddjob!kaos "I can tune a piano, but I can't tune a fish!"
ncg@ukc.UUCP (N.C.Gale) (04/22/85)
Tuna Fish is an Americanism, I think. I don't know of anyone else who uses the redundant 'fish'. But I could be wrong. (am I supposed to say tuna fish?)
jeff@rtech.ARPA (Jeff Lichtman) (04/23/85)
> A more modern Greenlandism is "kiwi fruit". Can a New Zealander > out there tell us what you really call the thing? The "Sunset New Western Garden Book" lists "yangtao" and "Chinese gooseberry" as alternates to "kiwi". It says that the plant is native to east Asia. Webster's 2nd says that "yangtao" comes from Chinese words that literally mean "sheep peach". The definition gives the botanical name as "Actinidia chinensis," which agrees with Sunset, but Webster's makes no reference to the fruit, saying only that the plant is "often cultivated for its nearly orbicular leaves, which are white-wooly beneath, and yellowish-white flowers." Webster's defines "Chinese gooseberry" as "the carambola," which is a fruit entirely unrelated to the kiwi fruit, and which doesn't even look like a berry. The carambola is also known as "star fruit," because in cross-section it looks like a five-pointed star. The thing looks so unlike a berry of any kind that it makes me wonder whether Webster's 2nd is wrong on this definition. If it was correct at the time it was written, then the meaning of "Chinese gooseberry" must have changed since it was published. Webster's gives no definition of "kiwi fruit." Finally, we have "The Greengrocer" by Joe Carcione. Joe Carcione is a local produce man who appears on television to give tips on buying groceries. He wrote "The Greengrocer" in 1976, just when kiwis were becoming known in the U.S. He says: "How do you go about marketing a completely new fruit to the American public? Especially one that's a real ugly duckling as far as looks go? That was the problem New Zealand businessmen faced with the fruit the called the Chinese gooseberry. "They decided a new and provocative name might do the trick and they settled on Kiwi, after the New Zealand national bird. I don't know how smart this was because it always makes me think of a brand of shoe polish. But that's the name they're sold by in the United States, although the fruit has also been called monkey peach, sheep peach, yang tao, and Ichang gooseberry. None of these names do this delicious and exotic fruit justice to my mind." -- Jeff Lichtman at rtech (Relational Technology, Inc.) aka Swazoo Koolak {amdahl, sun}!rtech!jeff {ucbvax, decvax}!mtxinu!rtech!jeff
mly@mit-eddie.UUCP (Richard Mlynarik) (04/23/85)
From: gadfly@ihu1m.UUCP (Gadfly) Subject: Re: tuna fish Date: Sat, 20-Apr-85 22:40:39 EST A more modern Greenlandism is "kiwi fruit". Can a New Zealander out there tell us what you really call the thing? In Australia at least they are/used to be called "chinese gooseberries" A similar thing happened with "macadamias" --- I grew up calling them "bush nuts" or "Queensland nuts" And yes, "tuna fish" is an Amerikanism. Nuke the marketing reps!
bob@vaxwaller.UUCP (Bob Palin) (04/23/85)
It's surprising how such a simple word can generate all this discussion, anyway tuna appears to be the American spelling of tunny which is the original English word for tuna though I think most English people now call it tuna. Tuna is also the prickly pear which is from a Haitian word and, in New Zealand, is a common species of eel so called by the Maori people. Bob Palin, Varian Instruments, Walnut Creek, Ca.
jpexg@mit-hermes.ARPA (John Purbrick) (04/23/85)
> A more modern Greenlandism is "kiwi fruit". Can a New Zealander > out there tell us what you really call the thing? I'm no Kiwi, (but I once had a girlfriend who was), but the so-called kiwi fruit was renamed in New Zealand for base commercial reasons. Its original English name was "Chinese gooseberry", and it is indeed a native of China, not New Zealand. Now, how many Americans know what a gooseberry looks/tastes like? (A large sour grape with bristles on it. Delicious in pies.) John Purbrick ...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!mit-hermes!jpexg
gh@utai.UUCP (Graeme Hirst) (04/23/85)
> How come people call it "tuna fish" instead of just "tuna"? They > never say "salmon fish" or "trout fish". > -- > Bob Kaplan This sort of thing seems to depend on dialect and idiosyncracies of the object. For me, "tuna fish" is marked as American; as a speaker of Australian English, I would always just say "tuna". On the other hand, there seem to be other specific words that optionally take the generic; e.g. "collie dog" and "collie" are equally good (in my dialect), but not "spaniel dog", etc. (How about "sheepdog"?) -- \\\\ Graeme Hirst University of Toronto Computer Science Department //// utcsri!utai!gh / gh.toronto@csnet-relay / 416-978-8747
bobm@rtech.ARPA (Bob Mcqueer) (04/23/85)
[]-- > I heard (I think from John Ciardi) that "tuna" was an advertising > ploy, you know, like Greenland. The fish was commonly known (and I wonder if somebody could verify or refute I story I've heard concerning tuna and advertising ploys. The way I've heard it, when tuna was first introduced in the U.S., people were much more accustomed to canned salmon, which was also price competetive at the time. To get people to buy tuna instead, one canner marketed it with a slogan like: "Will not turn pink in the can" which of course was literally a true statement, but was meant to imply that salmon did "turn pink", rather than being pink in the first place. And I don't know why "tuna fish" instead of just "tuna" either. If that's a regionalism, as someone suggested, I think it has a rather wide distribution. I've heard it quite often in different parts of the country. Bob McQueer amdahl!rtech!bobm
cjh@petsd.UUCP (Chris Henrich) (04/25/85)
[] Bob McQueer asks about the origin of this story: > ... The way I've heard it, when tuna was first > introduced in the U.S., people were much more accustomed to canned > salmon, which was also price competetive at the time. To get people > to buy tuna instead, one canner marketed it with a slogan like: > > "Will not turn pink in the can" > > which of course was literally a true statement, but was meant to imply > that salmon did "turn pink", rather than being pink in the first place. The version I have read is that somebody had a good many cans of salmon to sell, of a variety that tastes the same but is white instead of pink. I think I read this in _Moving_Mountains:_The_Art_of_ Letting_People_See_it_Your_Way_. (Subtitle not quite exact.) This is a good book on business presentations. Regards, Chris -- Full-Name: Christopher J. Henrich UUCP: ..!(cornell | ariel | ukc | houxz)!vax135!petsd!cjh US Mail: MS 313; Perkin-Elmer; 106 Apple St; Tinton Falls, NJ 07724 Phone: (201) 758-7288 From vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!tektronix!hplabs!amdahl!rtech!bobm Wed Dec 31 19:00:00 1969 Relay-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site petsd.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site rtech.ARPA Path: petsd!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!tektronix!hplabs!amdahl!rtech!bobm From: bobm@rtech.ARPA (Bob Mcqueer) Newsgroups: net.nlang Subject: Re: tuna fish Message-ID: <311@rtech.ARPA> Date: Tue, 23-Apr-85 14:24:03 EST Date-Received: Thu, 25-Apr-85 11:48:55 EST References: <395@ihu1m.UUCP> Organization: Relational Technology, Berkeley CA Lines: 23 []-- > I heard (I think from John Ciardi) that "tuna" was an advertising > ploy, you know, like Greenland. The fish was commonly known (and I wonder if somebody could verify or refute I story I've heard concerning tuna and advertising ploys. The way I've heard it, when tuna was first introduced in the U.S., people were much more accustomed to canned salmon, which was also price competetive at the time. To get people to buy tuna instead, one canner marketed it with a slogan like: "Will not turn pink in the can" which of course was literally a true statement, but was meant to imply that salmon did "turn pink", rather than being pink in the first place. And I don't know why "tuna fish" instead of just "tuna" either. If that's a regionalism, as someone suggested, I think it has a rather wide distribution. I've heard it quite often in different parts of the country. Bob McQueer amdahl!rtech!bobm
loucl@homxa.UUCP (L.CHANLIZAROO) (04/25/85)
<for the line eater> From someone who has tasted both, the "yang tao" and the kiwi fruit are both different creatures. The "yang tao" is definitely the starfruit described previously, while the kiwi fruit is, well, the kiwi fruit. -- louis chan
jc@mit-athena.UUCP (John Chambers) (04/26/85)
Hey, some time ago I read a claim that early this century the tuna marketers delivered some sort of knockout punch to their major competitors, the salmon marketers, with the claim that tuna "doesn't turn pink in the can". Has anyone else heard about this one? It sounds to good to be true. Did it really happen? -- John Chambers [...!decvax!mit-athena] He who has made no mistakes has probably made nothing at all.
jeff@rtech.ARPA (Jeff Lichtman) (04/26/85)
> > I'm no Kiwi, (but I once had a girlfriend who was), but the so-called kiwi > fruit was renamed in New Zealand for base commercial reasons. Its original > English name was "Chinese gooseberry", and it is indeed a native of > China, not New Zealand. Now, how many Americans know what a gooseberry > looks/tastes like? (A large sour grape with bristles on it. Delicious in > pies.) > > John Purbrick ...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!mit-hermes!jpexg Gooseberries are not grapes. They are closely related to currants. Both currants and gooseberries are members of the genus "Ribes." There is a type of small raisin called a "currant," but this is a red herring: the name is a corruption of "Corinth," which is the place the grapes were originally grown. Does anyone have a theory on the etymology of "gooseberry". Webster's 2nd says: "goose + berry; or perhaps altered from some older form; cf. F. groseille, G. krausberre, krauselbeere, D. kruisbes, kruisbezie." This isn't much help to me; I don't know the meanings of the foreign words. It's possible that "gooseberry" is a corruption of one of the given words. On the other hand, it could be that the words literally translate as "goose berry." Can anyone help? -- Jeff Lichtman at rtech (Relational Technology, Inc.) aka Swazoo Koolak {amdahl, sun}!rtech!jeff {ucbvax, decvax}!mtxinu!rtech!jeff
gadfly@ihu1m.UUCP (Gadfly) (04/29/85)
-- > In article <451@utai.UUCP> gh@utai.UUCP (Graeme Hirst) writes: > >In Australia, we always used to call them Chinese gooseberries, > >which makes sense as they aren't gooseberries and don't > >(I understand) originate in China. > > > Well, heck, that's OK: "English horns" are neither horns nor English! > > Any more self-contradictory words? > > Berry Kercheval The english horn (which looks a lot like an oboe, but sounds a fifth lower) got its name when the French "cor angle'" (lit: "angled horn"-- the instrument actually had a bend in it, though the modern version is straight with a curve only in the bocal) was confused with the near homophone "cor anglais". As a wind instrument, it certainly qualifies as a horn in the musical sense. -- *** *** JE MAINTIENDRAI ***** ***** ****** ****** 29 Apr 85 [10 Floreal An CXCIII] ken perlow ***** ***** (312)979-7188 ** ** ** ** ..ihnp4!iwsl8!ken *** ***
mgh@hou5h.UUCP (Marcus Hand) (04/30/85)
>From: jeff@rtech.ARPA (Jeff Lichtman) >Article-I.D.: rtech.318 >References: <2550@drutx.UUCP> <395@ihu1m.UUCP> <2373@mit-hermes.ARPA> > >> >> I'm no Kiwi, (but I once had a girlfriend who was), but the so-called kiwi >> fruit was renamed in New Zealand for base commercial reasons. Its original >> English name was "Chinese gooseberry", and it is indeed a native of >> China, not New Zealand. Now, how many Americans know what a gooseberry >> looks/tastes like? (A large sour grape with bristles on it. Delicious in >> pies.) >> >> John Purbrick ...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!mit-hermes!jpexg > >Gooseberries are not grapes. They are closely related to currants. Both >currants and gooseberries are members of the genus "Ribes." There is a type >of small raisin called a "currant," but this is a red herring: the name is a >corruption of "Corinth," which is the place the grapes were originally >grown. > >Does anyone have a theory on the etymology of "gooseberry". Webster's 2nd >says: "goose + berry; or perhaps altered from some older form; cf. F. >groseille, G. krausberre, krauselbeere, D. kruisbes, kruisbezie." This >isn't much help to me; I don't know the meanings of the foreign words. It's >possible that "gooseberry" is a corruption of one of the given words. >On the other hand, it could be that the words literally translate as >"goose berry." Can anyone help? -- Well my dictionary (Chambers 20 Century revised) tells me that kraus is crisp or curled, and groisele or grosele is old french for gooseberry. grossart is scottish for g. It also says "[Perh. goose and berry; or goose may be from MHG krus... , but doesn't tell us what krus is unless its an old form of kraus. BTW chinese gooseberry is a sub-tropical vine, so it says. I've been eating them occasionally for 10 or 15 years at least and have seen them called both names although I think the CG is the older. They've been growing them as a cash crop in Ca for some years now. -- Marcus Hand (hou5h!mgh)
gh@utai.UUCP (Graeme Hirst) (04/30/85)
> >In Australia, we always used to call them Chinese gooseberries, > >which makes sense as they aren't gooseberries and don't > >(I understand) originate in China. > > Well, heck, that's OK: "English horns" are neither horns nor English! > Any more self-contradictory words? Such expressions often take the form <nationality>+<object>, meaning a deviant instance of the object. Usually, it is derogatory to <nationality>. Examples are easily found in Webster's and Robert: Dutch courage -- courage due to intoxication Dutch treat -- not a treat Dutch elm disease -- nothing Dutch about it, I have read French leave -- sneaking away, which in French becomes "filer a` l'anglaise"! French letter -- "capote anglaise"! English muffin -- an American invention, I believe English sparrow -- "native to most of Europe and parts of Asia" (Webster's) -- \\\\ Graeme Hirst University of Toronto Computer Science Department //// utcsri!utai!gh / gh.toronto@csnet-relay / 416-978-8747
lambert@boring.UUCP (05/01/85)
> Does anyone have a theory on the etymology of "gooseberry". Webster's 2nd > says: "goose + berry; or perhaps altered from some older form; cf. F. > groseille, G. krausberre, krauselbeere, D. kruisbes, kruisbezie." This > isn't much help to me; I don't know the meanings of the foreign words. It's > possible that "gooseberry" is a corruption of one of the given words. > On the other hand, it could be that the words literally translate as > "goose berry." Can anyone help? French "groseille" is used also for currants (red or white); the gooseberry variety is known as "groseille a` maquereau" (mackerel currant), for its use in preparing a sauce to be served with mackerel. At least, according to my edition of the Nouveau Petit Larousse Illustre'. The same source claims that groseille comes from German Kraus+Bere (meaning Curly+Berry). Actually, neither Bere nor Berre are existing German words, only Beere will do. My German dictionary does not list Krausbeere, but only Kra"uselbeere, but Kra"usel is clearly an acceptable variant of Kraus (e.g. kraushaarig = "with curly hair", but Kra"useleisen = "hair-curling iron".) I have no theory how the French managed to drop the "b", which is even more unlikely than turning an "r" into the French "ll". German Kra"uselbeere and Dutch kruisbes both denote the gooseberry. The "literal" translation of kruisbes is "cross berry"; since there is nothing cross about gooseberries, this is quite likely a corruption of some German word "Krausbeere". However, I happen to know that in some Dutch dialects (both in Limburg and on the border between Brabant and Gelderland; possibly elsewhere too) a gooseberry is called "kroezel" (my spelling; "oe" is pronounced like "oo" in "goose"), without addition of a qualification "bes" = berry. This form seems to link French groseille with German Kra"usel(beere). All in all, it does not seem implausible to an amateur etymologist like myself that there was some old word with unknown origin, like "grosel" or "krosel", that developed into French groseille, German Kra"usel+beere (in which Beere was added, since K. by itself already carries a meaning), Dutch kruis+bes (possibly through an intermediate shortened German version Krausbeere; in many cases G. "au" corresponds to D. "ui", like Haus -- huis), and, with elision of the "r", into English "goose"+"berry". -- Lambert Meertens ...!{seismo,okstate,garfield,decvax,philabs}!lambert@mcvax.UUCP CWI (Centre for Mathematics and Computer Science), Amsterdam