[net.nlang] The magic number nine.

gadfly@ihu1m.UUCP (Gadfly) (04/16/85)

--
"Nine" crops up a lot in English idiom.  The etymology of "the
whole nine yards" was dealt with about a month ago.  Here are
two others I've often wondered about:

"Dressed to the nines."  Where did this come from?

"Possession is nine points of the law."  I asked about this
one (often misstated as "Possession is nine tenths of the law.")
many months back but got no substantial replies.  How many
points of the law are there (maybe there are 10)?  What are those
nine, and what's so special about them?
-- 
                    *** ***
JE MAINTIENDRAI   ***** *****
                 ****** ******  16 Apr 85 [27 Germinal An CXCIII]
ken perlow       *****   *****
(312)979-7188     ** ** ** **
..ihnp4!iwsl8!ken   *** ***

arnold@ucsfcgl.UUCP (Ken Arnold%CGL) (04/18/85)

In article <388@ihu1m.UUCP> gadfly@ihu1m.UUCP (Gadfly) writes:
>"Possession is nine points of the law."  I asked about this
>one (often misstated as "Possession is nine tenths of the law.")
>ken perlow       *****   *****

Misstated?  Says who?  I learned it as "nine tenths"; who makes you
right?

As such, nine tenths (90%) is an indicator of the nearly absolute
importance of possesion.  This phrase doesn't seem extrememly unusual:
90% or 99% is often used (sloppily) by people to mean "most", e.g.,
"This damn thing fails 99% of the time".  "Nine out of ten" uses of
"nine" seem rather self-explanatory, meaning "most, but not quite
all".  Your other uses ("Dressed to the nines" and "the whole nine
yards") cannot be explained by your truly.

gary@bocklin.UUCP (04/21/85)

> "Nine" crops up a lot in English idiom.
> "Dressed to the nines."  Where did this come from?
> "Possession is nine points of the law."  I asked about this
> one (often misstated as "Possession is nine tenths of the law.")
> What are those nine, and what's so special about them?
> ken perlow

Courtesy of Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable (a useful book
when reading net news)

Dressed to the nines -- possibly a corruption of ``to then eynes''
(to the eyes).

Possesion is nine points of the law -- It is every advantage a person
can have short of actual right.  The ``nine points'' have been given
as: (1) a good deal of money, (2) a good deal of patience, (3) a good
cause, (4) a good lawyer, (5) a good counsel, (6) good witnesses,
(7) a good jury, (8) a good judge, (9) good luck.
-- 
Gary Levin / Dept of CS / U of AZ / Tucson, AZ 85721 / (602) 621-4231

msb@lsuc.UUCP (Mark Brader) (04/26/85)

Ken Perlow:
> > "Possession is nine points of the law."  I asked about this
> > one (often misstated as "Possession is nine tenths of the law.")

Gary Levin:
> Courtesy of Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable (a useful book
> when reading net news)
> 
> Possesion is nine points of the law -- It is every advantage a person
> can have short of actual right.  The ``nine points'' have been given
> as: (1) a good deal of money, (2) a good deal of patience, (3) a good
> cause, (4) a good lawyer, (5) a good counsel, (6) good witnesses,
> (7) a good jury, (8) a good judge, (9) good luck.

This looks quite unbelievable to me.  Surely the original basis was
indeed some phrase meaning 9/10, such as "9 points out of 10".  (Which, of
course, makes the "misstatement" quite correct, as someone else said.)  And
then somebody came up with the list in retrospect.  Does Brewer's actually say
that the idiom is derived from the list?  ... I thought not.

Maybe "N points" is an old idiom for "N points out of N+1", i.e. N/(N+1) ?
Seems to me that I have seen "3 points drunk" for "3/4 drunk" or some such
phrase somewhere in British writing, but I can't remember for sure.

Mark Brader

shp@crystal.UUCP (04/29/85)

> 
> Maybe "N points" is an old idiom for "N points out of N+1", i.e. N/(N+1) ?
> Seems to me that I have seen "3 points drunk" for "3/4 drunk" or some such
> phrase somewhere in British writing, but I can't remember for sure.
> 
> Mark Brader

	The expression I heard of a similar nature was "Three sheets to the
    wind."  Can any sailing/ocean-going enthusiast explain this?

friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) (04/30/85)

In article <625@lsuc.UUCP> msb@lsuc.UUCP (Mark Brader) writes:
>
>This looks quite unbelievable to me.  Surely the original basis was
>indeed some phrase meaning 9/10, such as "9 points out of 10".  (Which, of
>course, makes the "misstatement" quite correct, as someone else said.)  And
>then somebody came up with the list in retrospect.  Does Brewer's actually say
>that the idiom is derived from the list?  ... I thought not.
>
>Maybe "N points" is an old idiom for "N points out of N+1", i.e. N/(N+1) ?
>Seems to me that I have seen "3 points drunk" for "3/4 drunk" or some such
>phrase somewhere in British writing, but I can't remember for sure.
>

	I think this may indeed be the case. In medieval England the
phrase "N *parts*" meant "N part out of N+1". They also used the phrase
"the Nth part of", to mean 1/N. These usages seem to be quite simliar
to the "Nine points" phrase. (If you want numerous examples of the
above usage try reading a translation of the Domesday Book)
-- 

				Sarima (Stanley Friesen)

{trwrb|allegra|cbosgd|hplabs|ihnp4|aero!uscvax!akgua}!sdcrdcf!psivax!friesen
or {ttdica|quad1|bellcore|scgvaxd}!psivax!friesen

jeff@rtech.ARPA (Jeff Lichtman) (05/08/85)

> > Seems to me that I have seen "3 points drunk" for "3/4 drunk" or some such
> > phrase somewhere in British writing, but I can't remember for sure.
> > 
> > Mark Brader
> 
> 	The expression I heard of a similar nature was "Three sheets to the
>     wind."  Can any sailing/ocean-going enthusiast explain this?

I'm no sailor, but I have a reference that answers this question.  "A Hog On
Ice & Other Curious Expressions" by Charles Earle Funk (Harper & Row, 1948)
is a book devoted to the etymology of expressions in English.  Mr. Funk has
this to say about "three sheets to the wind":

	"This means, of course, pretty drunk, reeling from too much indulgence
in strong drink, somewhat more tipsy than 'half-seas over.'  Like many other
common expressions, the phrase dates back to the times when ocean navigation
was entirely by sail.  But in nautical use, a sheet is not a sail, as landsmen
are accustomed to suppose, but the rope or chain attached to the lower corner
of a sail by which the angle of the sail is controlled.  In a strong wind the
sheet may be loosened, and is then said to be 'in the wind,' flapping and
fluttering without restraint.  If all three sheets are loose, as in a gale,
the vessel staggers and reels very much like a drunken person."
-- 
Jeff Lichtman at rtech (Relational Technology, Inc.)
aka Swazoo Koolak

{amdahl, sun}!rtech!jeff
{ucbvax, decvax}!mtxinu!rtech!jeff