gadfly@ihu1m.UUCP (Gadfly) (04/16/85)
-- "Nine" crops up a lot in English idiom. The etymology of "the whole nine yards" was dealt with about a month ago. Here are two others I've often wondered about: "Dressed to the nines." Where did this come from? "Possession is nine points of the law." I asked about this one (often misstated as "Possession is nine tenths of the law.") many months back but got no substantial replies. How many points of the law are there (maybe there are 10)? What are those nine, and what's so special about them? -- *** *** JE MAINTIENDRAI ***** ***** ****** ****** 16 Apr 85 [27 Germinal An CXCIII] ken perlow ***** ***** (312)979-7188 ** ** ** ** ..ihnp4!iwsl8!ken *** ***
arnold@ucsfcgl.UUCP (Ken Arnold%CGL) (04/18/85)
In article <388@ihu1m.UUCP> gadfly@ihu1m.UUCP (Gadfly) writes: >"Possession is nine points of the law." I asked about this >one (often misstated as "Possession is nine tenths of the law.") >ken perlow ***** ***** Misstated? Says who? I learned it as "nine tenths"; who makes you right? As such, nine tenths (90%) is an indicator of the nearly absolute importance of possesion. This phrase doesn't seem extrememly unusual: 90% or 99% is often used (sloppily) by people to mean "most", e.g., "This damn thing fails 99% of the time". "Nine out of ten" uses of "nine" seem rather self-explanatory, meaning "most, but not quite all". Your other uses ("Dressed to the nines" and "the whole nine yards") cannot be explained by your truly.
gary@bocklin.UUCP (04/21/85)
> "Nine" crops up a lot in English idiom. > "Dressed to the nines." Where did this come from? > "Possession is nine points of the law." I asked about this > one (often misstated as "Possession is nine tenths of the law.") > What are those nine, and what's so special about them? > ken perlow Courtesy of Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable (a useful book when reading net news) Dressed to the nines -- possibly a corruption of ``to then eynes'' (to the eyes). Possesion is nine points of the law -- It is every advantage a person can have short of actual right. The ``nine points'' have been given as: (1) a good deal of money, (2) a good deal of patience, (3) a good cause, (4) a good lawyer, (5) a good counsel, (6) good witnesses, (7) a good jury, (8) a good judge, (9) good luck. -- Gary Levin / Dept of CS / U of AZ / Tucson, AZ 85721 / (602) 621-4231
msb@lsuc.UUCP (Mark Brader) (04/26/85)
Ken Perlow: > > "Possession is nine points of the law." I asked about this > > one (often misstated as "Possession is nine tenths of the law.") Gary Levin: > Courtesy of Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable (a useful book > when reading net news) > > Possesion is nine points of the law -- It is every advantage a person > can have short of actual right. The ``nine points'' have been given > as: (1) a good deal of money, (2) a good deal of patience, (3) a good > cause, (4) a good lawyer, (5) a good counsel, (6) good witnesses, > (7) a good jury, (8) a good judge, (9) good luck. This looks quite unbelievable to me. Surely the original basis was indeed some phrase meaning 9/10, such as "9 points out of 10". (Which, of course, makes the "misstatement" quite correct, as someone else said.) And then somebody came up with the list in retrospect. Does Brewer's actually say that the idiom is derived from the list? ... I thought not. Maybe "N points" is an old idiom for "N points out of N+1", i.e. N/(N+1) ? Seems to me that I have seen "3 points drunk" for "3/4 drunk" or some such phrase somewhere in British writing, but I can't remember for sure. Mark Brader
shp@crystal.UUCP (04/29/85)
> > Maybe "N points" is an old idiom for "N points out of N+1", i.e. N/(N+1) ? > Seems to me that I have seen "3 points drunk" for "3/4 drunk" or some such > phrase somewhere in British writing, but I can't remember for sure. > > Mark Brader The expression I heard of a similar nature was "Three sheets to the wind." Can any sailing/ocean-going enthusiast explain this?
friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) (04/30/85)
In article <625@lsuc.UUCP> msb@lsuc.UUCP (Mark Brader) writes: > >This looks quite unbelievable to me. Surely the original basis was >indeed some phrase meaning 9/10, such as "9 points out of 10". (Which, of >course, makes the "misstatement" quite correct, as someone else said.) And >then somebody came up with the list in retrospect. Does Brewer's actually say >that the idiom is derived from the list? ... I thought not. > >Maybe "N points" is an old idiom for "N points out of N+1", i.e. N/(N+1) ? >Seems to me that I have seen "3 points drunk" for "3/4 drunk" or some such >phrase somewhere in British writing, but I can't remember for sure. > I think this may indeed be the case. In medieval England the phrase "N *parts*" meant "N part out of N+1". They also used the phrase "the Nth part of", to mean 1/N. These usages seem to be quite simliar to the "Nine points" phrase. (If you want numerous examples of the above usage try reading a translation of the Domesday Book) -- Sarima (Stanley Friesen) {trwrb|allegra|cbosgd|hplabs|ihnp4|aero!uscvax!akgua}!sdcrdcf!psivax!friesen or {ttdica|quad1|bellcore|scgvaxd}!psivax!friesen
jeff@rtech.ARPA (Jeff Lichtman) (05/08/85)
> > Seems to me that I have seen "3 points drunk" for "3/4 drunk" or some such > > phrase somewhere in British writing, but I can't remember for sure. > > > > Mark Brader > > The expression I heard of a similar nature was "Three sheets to the > wind." Can any sailing/ocean-going enthusiast explain this? I'm no sailor, but I have a reference that answers this question. "A Hog On Ice & Other Curious Expressions" by Charles Earle Funk (Harper & Row, 1948) is a book devoted to the etymology of expressions in English. Mr. Funk has this to say about "three sheets to the wind": "This means, of course, pretty drunk, reeling from too much indulgence in strong drink, somewhat more tipsy than 'half-seas over.' Like many other common expressions, the phrase dates back to the times when ocean navigation was entirely by sail. But in nautical use, a sheet is not a sail, as landsmen are accustomed to suppose, but the rope or chain attached to the lower corner of a sail by which the angle of the sail is controlled. In a strong wind the sheet may be loosened, and is then said to be 'in the wind,' flapping and fluttering without restraint. If all three sheets are loose, as in a gale, the vessel staggers and reels very much like a drunken person." -- Jeff Lichtman at rtech (Relational Technology, Inc.) aka Swazoo Koolak {amdahl, sun}!rtech!jeff {ucbvax, decvax}!mtxinu!rtech!jeff