liang@cvl.UUCP (Eli Liang) (05/10/85)
I've been wondering for a while what the entymology of the name "Bill" is.
I can see Will deriving from William, but where'd the 'B' come from?
-eli
--
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Eli Liang ---
University of Maryland Computer Vision Lab, (301) 454-4526
ARPA: liang@cvl, liang@lemuria, eli@mit-mc, eli@mit-prep
CSNET: liang@cvl UUCP: {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!cvl!liangriddle@ut-sally.UUCP (Prentiss Riddle) (05/11/85)
> I've been wondering for a while what the entymology of the name "Bill" is. > I can see Will deriving from William, but where'd the 'B' come from? Try making 'b' and 'w' sounds and notice what your mouth does. 'B' and 'w' are both what's known in the trade as "labial" sounds, because you make them by articulating with your lips. In the course of history, labial sounds often get substituted for one another. Hence the variants "Bill" and "Will". That's not all there is to it, though. The corresponding German name is "Wilhelm," pronounced /'vil helm/. That 'v' sound is what's known as a "labiodental," because it involves the bottom lip and the upper teeth. Labials and labiodentals, too, are often substituted for one another. It gets a lot more complicated if you look at the Romance languages. If anybody out there can give the exact relationship with all intermediate stages between the above and the Spanish "Guillermo," for instance, I'd be interested. This Phonetics and Phonology Minute has been brought to you by the International Amateur Ph&Ph Society... :-) --- Prentiss Riddle ("Aprendiz de todo, maestro de nada.") --- {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,gatech,ctvax}!ut-sally!riddle --- riddle@ut-sally.UUCP, riddle@ut-sally.ARPA, riddle%zotz@ut-sally
rob@ptsfa.UUCP (Rob Bernardo) (05/12/85)
In article <419@cvl.UUCP> liang@cvl.UUCP (Eli Liang) writes: >I've been wondering for a while what the entymology of the name "Bill" is. >I can see Will deriving from William, but where'd the 'B' come from? Apparently (at least in English) it used to be common to base new names, especially pet names, on rhymes with existing names. The following examples are taken from Dunkling & Gosling's "The Facts on File Dictionary of First Names": Ted from Ed(ward) (beside from Theodore) Ned from Ed(ward) Bob from Rob(ert) Polly from Molly (which is a pet form of Mary via Mally) Dick from Rick (which is a pet form of Richard, Frederick, etc.) -- Rob Bernardo, San Francisco, California {nsc,ucbvax,decwrl,amd,fortune,zehntel}!dual!ptsfa!rob _^__ ~/ \_.\ _ ~/ \_\ ~/ \_________~/ ~/ /\ /\ _/ \ / \ _/ \ _/ \ \ /
rob@ptsfa.UUCP (Rob Bernardo) (05/12/85)
In article <1886@ut-sally.UUCP> riddle@ut-sally.UUCP (Prentiss riddle) writes: >It gets a lot more complicated if you look at the Romance languages. If >anybody out there can give the exact relationship with all intermediate >stages between [William] and the Spanish "Guillermo," for instance, I'd be >interested. The original name was an Old High Germane name "Willahelm", which entered the Romance languages as Latinized "Guilielmus". The change of Germanic "w" to Early Romance "gu" (pronounced "gw") is common in Germanic-to-Romance borrowings, cf. English "war" and Spanish "guerra" (the 'u' used to be pronounced), from Germanic "werra"; Engish "ward" and (via French) "guard". As for Spanish, the change from "Guilielmus" to "Guillermo" follows all the normal sound changes Spanish incurred as it developed from Latin. 1. The use of the accusative ending "um" in place of the nominative "us". The final "m" was reduced to mere nasalization of the preceding "u" vowel. The final "u" being short and unstressed merged with "o". This happened to most Latin nouns ending in "us". 2. The change of a second "l" to "r" and vice versa is common in many disparate language families. In Spanish, many words with two of these sounds underwent a transposition of them, or a shift of one to the other. milagro from Latin miraculum peligro from Latin periculum pelegrino from Latin peregrinus 3. The change of the sound "gw" to "g" before front vowels ("i" and "e") occurs most everywhere in the development of Spanish words from Latin (although the "u" is still present in the SPELLING). 4. The change of the sound "ly" (spelled as "li" in the Latinized form) to the palatal lateral sound (spelled as "ll" in Spanish) occurs most everywhere in the development of Spanish words from Latin. -- Rob Bernardo, San Francisco, California {nsc,ucbvax,decwrl,amd,fortune,zehntel}!dual!ptsfa!rob _^__ ~/ \_.\ _ ~/ \_\ ~/ \_________~/ ~/ /\ /\ _/ \ / \ _/ \ _/ \ \ /
jcp@osiris.UUCP (Jody Patilla) (05/13/85)
> I've been wondering for a while what the entymology of the name "Bill" is. > I can see Will deriving from William, but where'd the 'B' come from? > > -eli I suspect it comes from the old Teutonic, wherein Wilhelm is pronounced as with a "v" and not with a "w". Etymologically speaking, v tends toward b over time, so that the name which sounded like "Villy" eventually became "Billy". Now, what I want to know, is how they got "Peggy" out of Margaret. -- jcpatilla "'Fancy thinking the Beast was something you could hunt and kill !'"
colonel@gloria.UUCP (Col. G. L. Sicherman) (05/14/85)
> I've been wondering for a while what the entymology of the name "Bill" is. > I can see Will deriving from William, but where'd the 'B' come from? > > -eli Just a convention - perhaps related to the "B" in boy. Consider "Bob" for "Robert." Some people think "Bob" sounds better than "Rob." Some of my young chess friends used to do this to everybody indiscriminately. For instance, a veteran chess player named "Erich" (short e, hard ch) became "Berich" (long e, soft ch)! -- Col. G. L. Sicherman ...{rocksvax|decvax}!sunybcs!colonel
rapaport@ellie.UUCP (William J. Rapaport) (05/14/85)
> > I've been wondering for a while what the entymology of the name "Bill" is. > > I can see Will deriving from William, but where'd the 'B' come from? > > > > -eli > > Just a convention - perhaps related to the "B" in boy. Consider "Bob" > for "Robert." Some people think "Bob" sounds better than "Rob." > > Some of my young chess friends used to do this to everybody > indiscriminately. For instance, a veteran chess player named "Erich" > (short e, hard ch) became "Berich" (long e, soft ch)! > -- > Col. G. L. Sicherman > ...{rocksvax|decvax}!sunybcs!colonel ------------ As a Bill, I feel somewhat qualified to venture a hypothesis (or even aN hypothesis): `w' is pronounced /v/ in many languages, and `v' and `b' are not distinguished in many languages. So: William -> Will -> /vil/ -> /bil/ -> Bill Does this sound plausible or is it mere folk etymology? -- William J. Rapaport Assistant Professor Dept. of Computer Science, SUNY Buffalo, Buffalo, NY 14260 (716) 636-3193 uucp: ...{rocksvax|decvax}!sunybcs!rapaport csnet/arpanet: rapaport%buffalo@csnet-relay
peg@ihlpm.UUCP (Peg Streff) (05/20/85)
> Now, what I want to know, is how they got "Peggy" out of Margaret. > -- > > jcpatilla > Margaret --> Margie --> Maggie --> Meggie --> Peggy i have been asked that question many times, and this is the best way i've found to explain it, but i still can't explain the switch from M to P!! -- Peg Streff AT&T Bell Laboratories, Naperville, IL ihnp4!ihlpm!peg
rob@ptsfa.UUCP (Rob Bernardo) (05/23/85)
In article <263@ihlpm.UUCP> peg@ihlpm.UUCP (Peg Streff) writes: >> Now, what I want to know, is how they got "Peggy" out of Margaret. >> -- >> >> jcpatilla >> >Margaret --> Margie --> Maggie --> Meggie --> Peggy > >i have been asked that question many times, and this is the best >way i've found to explain it, but i still can't explain the switch >from M to P!! Many nicknames in English are based on rhymes with other names, e.g. Bob from Rob Dick from Rick Ned, Ted from Ed Bill from Will This is not the case of some regular phonological sound change as occurs in the words of a language through time, but rather of a way speakers of English consciously created new nicknames. -- Rob Bernardo, San Francisco, California {nsc,ucbvax,decwrl,amd,fortune,zehntel}!dual!ptsfa!rob _^__ ~/ \_.\ _ ~/ \_\ ~/ \_________~/ ~/ /\ /\ _/ \ / \ _/ \ _/ \ \ /