[net.nlang] 2nd pers pron in different languages

sommar@enea.UUCP (Erland Sommarskog) (09/20/85)

This little chart shows different pronouns used in some languages:

              2nd  singular                2nd plural
	     informal   formal            informal    formal
	      
Swedish        du         ni                 ni         ni
German         du         Sie                ihr        Sie
French         tu         vous               tu         vous
Italian        tu         La / voi           voi        voi / (Loro)

Some remarks:
1) Note the similarity between Italian and German. "Sie" actually
   means "she" or "they". "La" means "she" and "Loro" "they". 
   (In both languages beeing written lower case.)
2) I've been told "Loro" is rarely used these days. Italians
   on the net can correct me. Same about "La" vs. "voi". 
3) Swedish and French look similar too, but that's not the fact. 
   French probably displays the normal use. I.e using the plural
   form also in singular formal speech.
4) The special about Swedish is not *which* pronouns you use, but
   *when*. "du" is much more frequent and you normally use it when
   you talk to a stranger. Even the king has accept beeing called
   called "du" by journalists.
     The interesting fact is that this reflects a very rapid change
   which has ocurred the last 40 years.
     Many old people very much dislikes beeing entitled "du" by anyone
   they don't know. (For myself, I dislike beeing called "ni".)
   So, therefore you use "ni" when you speak/write to an anonymous
   community e.g. in commercials when you don't to harm people.
   (Also if you're talking to an old person and won't to be polite.)
   But if you only want to reach young people, you use "du"...
     A little problem is when Swedes go abroad. They continue with
   these habits. Saying "du" to a unknown German is almost an 
   insult, I'd guess. 
5) The Swedish pronouns are sometimes written "Du" and "Ni". "Du"
   could be seen as a form of formal speech. I dislike this habit
   quite much.

mgv@duke.UUCP (Marco G. Valtorta) (09/23/85)

The formal 2nd person singular in Italian is "Lei," not "La."
It means "her" or (colloquially) "she."  The more correct
way of saying "she" is "ella."  One occasionally finds "Ella"
in place of "Lei" meaning you (formal) in very formal letters.

"Lei" is definitely more popular that "voi" (you, plural) as
formal 2nd person singular nowadays.  On the other hand, "voi"
was preferred in Fascist Italy.

					Marco Valtorta

dmt@Glacier.ARPA (Mike Thornburg) (09/24/85)

> 1) Note the similarity between Italian and German. "Sie" actually
>    means "she" or "they". "La" means "she" and "Loro" "they". 
>    (In both languages beeing written lower case.)

Allow me to point out that the formal pronoun "Sie" in German is
clearly derived from "they" and not "she" as it always takes a plural
verb.  It is interesting that Lessing's _Minna_Von_Barnhelm_ (written
during the middle of the 1700's) shows examples of dialogue where
"Sie(singular)" (or "She") and "Er" (or "He") were used as sort of a
semi-formal second person singular amoung people such as servants and
innkeepers who were not close friends, while the aristocracy used
"Sie(plural)" (the present 2nd person formal singular and plural)
when talking with each other.

In a separate note about another part of this discussion, I think no
one else has remarked that not only does Quaker "plain speech" use
"thee" instead of "thou" as the subject of a sentence, but the 3rd
person singular form of the verb is used instead of the one appropriate
to "thou".