sommar@enea.UUCP (Erland Sommarskog) (09/20/85)
This little chart shows different pronouns used in some languages:
2nd singular 2nd plural
informal formal informal formal
Swedish du ni ni ni
German du Sie ihr Sie
French tu vous tu vous
Italian tu La / voi voi voi / (Loro)
Some remarks:
1) Note the similarity between Italian and German. "Sie" actually
means "she" or "they". "La" means "she" and "Loro" "they".
(In both languages beeing written lower case.)
2) I've been told "Loro" is rarely used these days. Italians
on the net can correct me. Same about "La" vs. "voi".
3) Swedish and French look similar too, but that's not the fact.
French probably displays the normal use. I.e using the plural
form also in singular formal speech.
4) The special about Swedish is not *which* pronouns you use, but
*when*. "du" is much more frequent and you normally use it when
you talk to a stranger. Even the king has accept beeing called
called "du" by journalists.
The interesting fact is that this reflects a very rapid change
which has ocurred the last 40 years.
Many old people very much dislikes beeing entitled "du" by anyone
they don't know. (For myself, I dislike beeing called "ni".)
So, therefore you use "ni" when you speak/write to an anonymous
community e.g. in commercials when you don't to harm people.
(Also if you're talking to an old person and won't to be polite.)
But if you only want to reach young people, you use "du"...
A little problem is when Swedes go abroad. They continue with
these habits. Saying "du" to a unknown German is almost an
insult, I'd guess.
5) The Swedish pronouns are sometimes written "Du" and "Ni". "Du"
could be seen as a form of formal speech. I dislike this habit
quite much.mgv@duke.UUCP (Marco G. Valtorta) (09/23/85)
The formal 2nd person singular in Italian is "Lei," not "La." It means "her" or (colloquially) "she." The more correct way of saying "she" is "ella." One occasionally finds "Ella" in place of "Lei" meaning you (formal) in very formal letters. "Lei" is definitely more popular that "voi" (you, plural) as formal 2nd person singular nowadays. On the other hand, "voi" was preferred in Fascist Italy. Marco Valtorta
dmt@Glacier.ARPA (Mike Thornburg) (09/24/85)
> 1) Note the similarity between Italian and German. "Sie" actually > means "she" or "they". "La" means "she" and "Loro" "they". > (In both languages beeing written lower case.) Allow me to point out that the formal pronoun "Sie" in German is clearly derived from "they" and not "she" as it always takes a plural verb. It is interesting that Lessing's _Minna_Von_Barnhelm_ (written during the middle of the 1700's) shows examples of dialogue where "Sie(singular)" (or "She") and "Er" (or "He") were used as sort of a semi-formal second person singular amoung people such as servants and innkeepers who were not close friends, while the aristocracy used "Sie(plural)" (the present 2nd person formal singular and plural) when talking with each other. In a separate note about another part of this discussion, I think no one else has remarked that not only does Quaker "plain speech" use "thee" instead of "thou" as the subject of a sentence, but the 3rd person singular form of the verb is used instead of the one appropriate to "thou".