tonyw@ubvax.UUCP (Tony Wuersch) (10/31/85)
In article <1385@ihlpg.UUCP> tan@ihlpg.UUCP (Bill Tanenbaum) writes: >there is no word in the English language for inhabitant of the United States >other than American. I can understand how Latin Americans and Canadians >might not like this, but it is a fact. I'll be damned if I'm going to >call myself a Unitedstatesian (ugh!). It is unfortunate that the same >word, American, has more than one meaning, but it takes someone like jeff m. >to convert this into a sign of US hegemony over the West. Spare us. >-- >Bill Tanenbaum - AT&T Bell Labs - Naperville IL ihnp4!ihlpg!tan It's natural for people who are on top to defend ambiguities in language that favor them by saying "there is no word other than" the ambiguity. It's also natural for people who aren't on top to criticize ambiguities in language which they perceive as threatening. That there's "no other word than American" in English (I dunno, just use more than one word, maybe) for an inhabitant of the US means that there's very little rhetorical defense against people who use "American" as a buzz word for national destiny, etc.. Again, no surprise that the language is built so that anti-nationalistic sentiments can't be expressed in simple language. Languages in most countries are social constructions codified by national official agencies. Re hegemony: the weapons given by a language for rhetoric are often enhanced by some physical ammo. Tony Wuersch {amd,amdcad}!cae780!ubvax!tonyw
sra@oddjob.UUCP (Scott R. Anderson) (11/05/85)
In article <1385@ihlpg.UUCP> tan@ihlpg.UUCP (Bill Tanenbaum) writes: >there is no word in the English language for inhabitant of the United States >other than American. I can understand how Latin Americans and Canadians >might not like this, but it is a fact. I'll be damned if I'm going to >call myself a Unitedstatesian (ugh!). It is unfortunate that the same >word, American, has more than one meaning, but it takes someone like jeff m. >to convert this into a sign of US hegemony over the West. Spare us. Anyone from Latin America will tell you an inhabitant of the US is a yankee. And you better believe, that's an insult! -- Scott Anderson ihnp4!oddjob!kaos!sra
barmar@mit-eddie.UUCP (Barry Margolin) (11/05/85)
The full name of the US is "The United States of America". As far as I
know, we are the only country whose name contains the name "America".
Just as residents of The Commonwealth of Virginia call themselves
"Virginians" and residents of The Republic of West Germany (I think
that's its full name, please don't flame at me if I am wrong) call
themselves "West Germans", residents of "The US of America" can call
themselves Americans. Indeed, some other collection of states could
unite themselves, and they might be The United States of Foobar; they
would call themselves "Foobarians", not "Unitedstatesians", just as West
Germans do not call themselves "Republicans".
Yes, it is a problem that there are several geographical and political
entities whose names are some variant on "America". But residents of
the United States of America have no more or less right than residents
of South America to call themselves "Americans". However, except for
residents of the US of A, all the other Americans have other
country-name-based designations (e.g. "Brazilians", "Mexicans",
"Canadians"); why do they want our name?
--
Barry Margolin
ARPA: barmar@MIT-Multics
UUCP: ..!genrad!mit-eddie!barmarjcp@osiris.UUCP (Jody Patilla) (11/05/85)
> In article <1385@ihlpg.UUCP> tan@ihlpg.UUCP (Bill Tanenbaum) writes: > >there is no word in the English language for inhabitant of the United States > >other than American. I can understand how Latin Americans and Canadians > >might not like this, but it is a fact. I'll be damned if I'm going to > >call myself a Unitedstatesian (ugh!). It is unfortunate that the same > >word, American, has more than one meaning, but it takes someone like jeff m. > >to convert this into a sign of US hegemony over the West. Spare us. > > That there's "no other word than American" in English (I dunno, just use > more than one word, maybe) for an inhabitant of the US means that > there's very little rhetorical defense against people who use "American" > as a buzz word for national destiny, etc.. Again, no surprise that > the language is built so that anti-nationalistic sentiments can't > be expressed in simple language. Languages in most countries are > social constructions codified by national official agencies. > Everywhere else in the world, they call us "yanks". -- jcpatilla
myers@uwmacc.UUCP (Latitudinarian Lobster) (11/05/85)
> > Yes, it is a problem that there are several geographical and political > entities whose names are some variant on "America". But residents of > the United States of America have no more or less right than residents > of South America to call themselves "Americans". However, except for > residents of the US of A, all the other Americans have other > country-name-based designations (e.g. "Brazilians", "Mexicans", > "Canadians"); why do they want our name? > -- > Barry Margolin > ARPA: barmar@MIT-Multics > UUCP: ..!genrad!mit-eddie!barmar Hm...I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, but remember that people who live in the CONTINENT of Europe are called Europeans; people who live in Asia are Asians; people who live in Africa are called Africans; if someone calls themself an American, things are less clear. Yow! I am having fun. Zippy the Pinhead
breuel@h-sc1.UUCP (thomas breuel) (11/06/85)
> "Virginians" and residents of The Republic of West Germany (I think > that's its full name, please don't flame at me if I am wrong) call > themselves "West Germans", residents of "The US of America" can call The name of the western part of Germany is 'Bundesrepublik Deutschland' ('Federal Republic of Germany'), the name of the eastern part is 'Deutsche Demokratische Republik' ('German Democratic Republic'). A citizen of the FRG will refer to himself as 'German', without any qualifiers. The terms 'East Germany' and 'West Germany' are only used for postal purposes. They are practically never used in normal (German) conversation. Only if a German talks to an American, he may use them to refer to the FRG or the GDR, mostly because many Americans are fairly ignorant of the state of affairs and will get terribly confused otherwise... Thomas.
tan@ihlpg.UUCP (Bill Tanenbaum) (11/06/85)
> >[Me] > >there is no word in the English language for inhabitant of the United States > >other than American. I can understand how Latin Americans and Canadians > >might not like this, but it is a fact. I'll be damned if I'm going to > >call myself a Unitedstatesian (ugh!). It is unfortunate that the same > >word, American, has more than one meaning, but it takes someone like jeff m. > >to convert this into a sign of US hegemony over the West. Spare us. ------- > [Tony Wuersch] > It's natural for people who are on top to defend ambiguities in language > that favor them by saying "there is no word other than" the ambiguity. ------- I don't see how the ambiguity favors the U. S. If anything it hurts us by creating anti-U.S. resentment for no good reason. ------- > It's also natural for people who aren't on top to criticize ambiguities in > language which they perceive as threatening. ------- Correct. ------- > That there's "no other word than American" in English (I dunno, just use > more than one word, maybe) for an inhabitant of the US means that > there's very little rhetorical defense against people who use "American" > as a buzz word for national destiny, etc.. Again, no surprise that > the language is built so that anti-nationalistic sentiments can't > be expressed in simple language. ----- Come on. Anti-nationalistic sentiments can be expressed in much the same language as pro-nationalistic ones. How about "America Sucks." Is that simple enough for you? ----- > Languages in most countries are > social constructions codified by national official agencies. ----- Maybe so, but not in the U. S. You seem to think that the U. S. Govt. created American English. Not so. It doesn't even codify it. You are perfectly free to publicize an alternative to "American". If it catches on, it will make Webster's, and Ronald Reagan and his minions couldn't stop it even if they wanted to. -- Bill Tanenbaum - AT&T Bell Labs - Naperville IL ihnp4!ihlpg!tan
suze@terak.UUCP (Suzanne Barnett) (11/07/85)
> > In article <1385@ihlpg.UUCP> tan@ihlpg.UUCP (Bill Tanenbaum) writes: > > >there is no word in the English language for inhabitant of the United States > > >other than American. I can understand how Latin Americans and Canadians > > >might not like this, but it is a fact. I'll be damned if I'm going to > > That there's "no other word than American" in English (I dunno, just use > > more than one word, maybe) for an inhabitant of the US means that > Everywhere else in the world, they call us "yanks". I doubt you'll find many (American) southerners who will accept this name. The word "yankee" is usually used as part of the contraction "damnyankee" and refers to northerners, strictly. It has extremely negative connotations to the southern portion of the population of the US. -- ************************************************************** Suzanne Barnett-Scott uucp: ...{decvax,ihnp4,noao,savax,seismo}!terak!suze phone: (602) 998-4800 us mail: CalComp/Sanders Display Products Division (Formerly Terak Corporation) 14151 N 76th street, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
jsq@im4u.UUCP (John Quarterman) (11/08/85)
In article <36@utastro.UUCP> nather@utastro.UUCP (Ed Nather) writes: >> Anyone from Latin America will tell you an inhabitant of the US is a yankee. >> And you better believe, that's an insult! >> Scott Anderson > >Odd. They called me a "gringo" ... I assume that's a compliment? Actually, that's yanqui, unless the other is greengo. A common hispanoamericano term for the those of us north of El Rio Bravo del Norte (the Rio Grande to you) is norteamericano (sorry Canadians: we didn't choose it; they did). Furthermore, latinoamericano is considered inaccurate by most of those to whom it refers (they don't speak Latin, after all). They prefer hispanoamericano (Hispanic American). I think I've seen iberoamericano used to include Portuguese speakers. Many Mexicans object to norteamericanos calling their country The United States. You see, the official name of Mexico is Los Estados Unidos Mexicanos. And there are several other countries in this hemisphere which are "the United States of Whatever". Even The United States of America is considered to be in dubious taste, because of the multiple meanings of "America". I call it "the States," myself: there's a name that pleases no-one! Another good one is "The Country Without a Name." Wasn't it Edgar Allen Poe who proposed the name "Appalachia" (referring to the Appalachian Mountains)? The country was smaller then, though. I understand that in Argentina "gringo" means "italian". I would mention the origin of the word, but doubtless everyone knows it already. -- John Quarterman, UUCP: {ihnp4,seismo,harvard,gatech}!ut-sally!im4u!jsq ARPA Internet and CSNET: jsq@im4u.UTEXAS.EDU, formerly jsq@im4u.ARPA
leo@cca.UUCP (Louise Osterman) (11/08/85)
When visiting cousins in Canada a few years ago, I got called on referring to myself as an American as though they were not. My solution was not to call myself a "Unitedstatesian," rather a "US American." Simple, and not too difficult to pronounce either!
fred@mot.UUCP (Fred Christiansen) (11/08/85)
> but remember that > people who live in the CONTINENT of Europe are called Europeans; not only that, but "European" is a generalized equivalent to Caucasian in many places. i grew up in India, with visits to various other Asian spots, and was frequently referred to as "European". so, while not totally accurate, "Americans" and "Europeans" can generalize to "Europeans" as in "Caucasians". if we take "American" to be a generalization for anyone inhabiting the Americas, then it is citizens of the US who are without a more specific term (as Margolin pointed out). any suggestions? ;-) of course, us Canajuns call them 'Mericans. -- << Generic disclaimer >> Fred Christiansen ("Canajun, eh?") @ Motorola Microsystems, Tempe, AZ UUCP: {seismo!terak, trwrb!flkvax, utzoo!mnetor, ihnp4, attunix}!mot!fred ARPA: oakhill!mot!fred@ut-sally.ARPA "Families are Forever"
jsq@im4u.UUCP (John Quarterman) (11/09/85)
In article <858@terak.UUCP> suze@terak.UUCP (Suzanne Barnett) writes: >I doubt you'll find many (American) southerners who will accept >this name. The word "yankee" is usually used as part of the >contraction "damnyankee" and refers to northerners, strictly. It has >extremely negative connotations to the southern portion of the >population of the US. What this word means changes as you move northward. South of the U.S. (and in most of the rest of the world) people take it to mean an inhabitant of the U.S., especially as in "Yankee go home!" In the southern U.S., it is often used in the more formal :-) form mentioned above of "damyankee", which is more or less equivalent to "carpetbagger". In both places, the most pejorative uses are reserved for those yankees who have come from where they live to impose themselves on others. People from south of the border who want to refer to people from the states while in Dixie are likely to use "gringo" or even "norteamericano" or "American" as much safer words, lest they inadvertently use "yankee" to refer to a southerner. (While south of the border, they can probably get away with it, as long as they say "yanqui". :-) In the midwest and around New York State, Yankee means someone from New England, especially from Boston, and seems to have connotations of quaint and old-fashioned. In Boston, it refers to a particular variety of old stock and old money, and is more or less equivalent to "Boston Brahmin". (You know, those people who claim to be descended from the passengers of the Mayflower, the boat which was aiming for Jamestown but missed Virginia by half a thousand miles.) Note how the scope of the word not only narrows as you move northward, but also the connotations change from unfavorable to favorable at about the break between the above two paragraphs. -- John Quarterman, UUCP: {ihnp4,seismo,harvard,gatech}!ut-sally!im4u!jsq ARPA Internet and CSNET: jsq@im4u.UTEXAS.EDU, formerly jsq@im4u.ARPA
dawn@prism.UUCP (11/12/85)
Some friends of mine in Canada refer to people from the United
States as "U.S.-ans".
"Yankee" or "yank" is not only used in other countries as a
name for "U.S.-ans", it isf also a term used by those south of the
Mason-Dixon line to refer to those north of the line. Call a
southerner a yankee, and watch the fur fly!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dawn Stockbridge Hall {cca, datacube, ihnp4, inmet, mit-eddie, wjh12}...
Mirror Systems, Inc. ...mirror!prism!dawn
"Knowing is not enough: We must apply. Willing is not enough: We must do.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------devine@asgb.UUCP (Robert J. Devine) (11/12/85)
> In article <36@utastro.UUCP> nather@utastro.UUCP (Ed Nather) writes: > > I understand that in Argentina "gringo" means "italian". I would mention > the origin of the word, but doubtless everyone knows it already. I've never heard of answer to "where did 'gringo' come from?" that had any finality to it. One proposed source was that American (United States-ian:-) soldiers sang a song entitled "Green Grow the Rushes". Really!
dailey@cornell.UUCP (John Hudgins Dailey) (11/15/85)
> > I understand that in Argentina "gringo" means "italian". I would mention > the origin of the word, but doubtless everyone knows it already. I had heard that "gringo" came from the fact that in one of the U.S.'s confrontations in Latin America ( the Spanish-Am. war or perhaps Texas' fight for independence) the North American soldiers wore green uniforms. The other side would chant " Green(s) go (home)". Could someone let me know if this is correct ? |----------------------------------------------------------------------------| | John H. Dailey | | Center for Applied Math. | | Cornell U. | | Ithaca, N.Y. 14853 | | {decvax,ihnp4,cmcl2,vax135}!cornell!amvax!dailey (USENET) | | dailey%amvax@CRNLCS.BITNET (Bitnet) | | dailey@amvax.tn.cornell.edu (ARPANET) | |----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
jsq@im4u.UUCP (John Quarterman) (11/16/85)
In article <817@asgb.UUCP> devine@asgb.UUCP (Robert J. Devine) writes: >> In article <36@utastro.UUCP> nather@utastro.UUCP (Ed Nather) writes: >> >> I understand that in Argentina "gringo" means "italian". I would mention >> the origin of the word, but doubtless everyone knows it already. Ed, did you know you wrote that? I thought I did.... > I've never heard of answer to "where did 'gringo' come from?" that >had any finality to it. One proposed source was that American (United >States-ian:-) soldiers sang a song entitled "Green Grow the Rushes". That's the story. Supposedly it happened just after Texas joined the Union, and the Mexicans wanted something other than "tejanos" to call the newcomers who were invading their country in the latest war. The song was popular at that time (1845?) and the troops from the north sang it as they marched. It's not proven, but it's pretty plausible. >Really! Now there's a cogent and well-reasoned rebuttal if I ever saw one! -- John Quarterman, UUCP: {ihnp4,seismo,harvard,gatech}!ut-sally!im4u!jsq ARPA Internet and CSNET: jsq@im4u.UTEXAS.EDU, formerly jsq@im4u.ARPA
myers@uwmacc.UUCP (Latitudinarian Lobster) (11/16/85)
> I had heard that "gringo" came from the fact that in one of the U.S.'s > confrontations in Latin America ( the Spanish-Am. war or perhaps Texas' > fight for independence) the North American soldiers wore green uniforms. > The other side would chant " Green(s) go (home)". Could someone let me know > if this is correct ? > > | John H. Dailey | I doubt it, as the Spanish for green is verde. The *Green Grow the Rushes* theory sounds plausible to me. ``One is one and all alone and ever more shall be it so.'' Every good Boy Scout should know that song, lots of good religious connotations, and fun to sing. Jeff M.
sra@oddjob.UUCP (Scott R. Anderson) (11/18/85)
In article <9500006@prism.UUCP> dawn@prism.UUCP writes: > Some friends of mine in Canada refer to people from the United > States as "U.S.-ans". Is that pronounced 'yu-es-ans' or 'yu-sans'? If we all started calling the U.S.A. "usa" (yu-sa), the latter would be appropriate by analogy with California or Georgia. Maybe we can start a trend -- shades of Cheese Triscuits! (We wouldn't be the only ones to try this -- look at "USA Today" with their invariant use of "USA" when other newspapers use "US" or "United States"; it still looks unnatural to me.) -- Scott Anderson ihnp4!oddjob!kaos!sra
jeff@rtech.UUCP (Jeff Lichtman) (11/18/85)
> > > I've never heard of answer to "where did 'gringo' come from?" that > >had any finality to it. One proposed source was that American (United > >States-ian:-) soldiers sang a song entitled "Green Grow the Rushes". > > That's the story. Supposedly it happened just after Texas joined > the Union, and the Mexicans wanted something other than "tejanos" > to call the newcomers who were invading their country in the latest war. > The song was popular at that time (1845?) and the troops from the north > sang it as they marched. > > It's not proven, but it's pretty plausible. > > John Quarterman, UUCP: {ihnp4,seismo,harvard,gatech}!ut-sally!im4u!jsq I looked up "Green Grow the Rushes, Ho" in the "Fireside Book of Folk Songs". It didn't seem to me to be the type of song soldiers would sing, for marching or otherwise. Here are the first couple of verses: I'll sing you one-ho! Green grow the rushes-ho. What is your one-ho? One is one and all alone, And evermore shall be so. I'll sing you two-ho! Green grow the rushes-ho. What are your two-ho? Two, two the lily-white boys, Clothed all in green-ho. One is one and all-alone, And evermore shall be so. It continues building like "The Twelve Days of Christmas", with the following additions: Three, three the rivals, Four the Gospel makers, Five for the symbols at your door, Six for the six proud walkers, Seven for the seven stars in the sky, Eight for the April rainers, Nine for the nine bright shiners, Ten for the ten commandments, Eleven for the eleven went up to heaven, Twelve for the twelve Apostles Doesn't exactly sound like a marching song that would help the soldiers keep cadence and inspire them to do battle, does it? Then I looked in the "Dictionary of Word Origins" by Joseph T. Shipley. It says: "'Gringo' is the term Mexicans gave the American (English). It may be from Sp. 'griego', Greek (as in 'It's Greek to me.'); but it is commonly supposed to be from the opening words of a song by Burns, popular with the soldiers in the Mexican War: Green grow the rashes O The happiest hours that ere I spent Were spent among the lasses O. Soldier themes vary little down the ages." This is a little more plausible. It's still not a marching song, but I can imagine soldiers singing it. Most folksongs have many versions, and the "Fireside Book of Folk Songs" recorded one that was suitable for the kids. "Fireside" contains another song, "Green Grow the Lilacs". It says that it is an old Irish song popular with the early Texas cowboys, and that the Mexicans got the word "gringo" from the opening words. Now we have three hypotheses, with no substantiation for any of them. -- Jeff Lichtman at rtech (Relational Technology, Inc.) "Saints should always be judged guilty until they are proved innocent..." {amdahl, sun}!rtech!jeff {ucbvax, decvax}!mtxinu!rtech!jeff
zwicky@osu-eddie.UUCP (Elizabeth D. Zwicky) (11/18/85)
In article <749@rtech.UUCP> jeff@rtech.UUCP (Jeff Lichtman) writes: >> >> > I've never heard of answer to "where did 'gringo' come from?" that >> >had any finality to it. One proposed source was that American (United >> >States-ian:-) soldiers sang a song entitled "Green Grow the Rushes". >> >> That's the story. Supposedly it happened just after Texas joined >> the Union, and the Mexicans wanted something other than "tejanos" >> to call the newcomers who were invading their country in the latest war. >> The song was popular at that time (1845?) and the troops from the north >> sang it as they marched. >> >> It's not proven, but it's pretty plausible. >> >> John Quarterman, UUCP: {ihnp4,seismo,harvard,gatech}!ut-sally!im4u!jsq > >I looked up "Green Grow the Rushes, Ho" in the "Fireside Book of Folk Songs". >It didn't seem to me to be the type of song soldiers would sing, for marching >or otherwise. Here are the first couple of verses: > > I'll sing you one-ho! > Green grow the rushes-ho. > What is your one-ho? > One is one and all alone, > And evermore shall be so. ... >Doesn't exactly sound like a marching song that would help the soldiers keep >cadence and inspire them to do battle, does it? Then I looked in the >"Dictionary of Word Origins" by Joseph T. Shipley. It says: > > "'Gringo' is the term Mexicans gave the American (English). It may > be from Sp. 'griego', Greek (as in 'It's Greek to me.'); but it is > commonly supposed to be from the opening words of a song by Burns, > popular with the soldiers in the Mexican War: > Green grow the rashes O > The happiest hours that ere I spent > Were spent among the lasses O. > Soldier themes vary little down the ages." > >This is a little more plausible. It's still not a marching song, but I >can imagine soldiers singing it. Most folksongs have many versions, and the >"Fireside Book of Folk Songs" recorded one that was suitable for the kids. > >"Fireside" contains another song, "Green Grow the Lilacs". It says that it >is an old Irish song popular with the early Texas cowboys, and that the >Mexicans got the word "gringo" from the opening words. >Now we have three hypotheses, with no substantiation for any of them. >-- The last hypothesis is the most common. The two different "Green grow the Rushes-Oh"s are totally different, in tune as well as words, one being a composed song to a folk tune, words by Robert Burns, and the other being a folk song. It is likely, however, that Burns merely cleaned it up for polite consumption, so it may have been really obscene once - a lot of Scots songs were, both before and after Burns got to them. Elizabeth D. Zwicky
pete@ecrcvax.UUCP (Pete Delaney) (11/20/85)
Perhaps the reason the states havn't a unifying name is that it's only in the last 100 os so years that the unification has been so extensive. Before the turn of the century the states were united; now it seems they are dominated. Maybe we should call ourselves the Dominated States of America- DSA (Oh - Honeywell would like that). The world seem to going in the direction or centralization, unification, and standardization. Maybe, since we are discussing the history of the name of our nation, we should discuss what we want it to be, and why. But I doubt it would help, the trend will likely continue. -- -------------------------------------------- Pete Delaney - Rocky Mnt. Unix Consultant Phone: (49) 89 92699-139 European Computer-Industry Research Center UUCP: mcvax!unido!ecrcvax!pete ArabellaStrasse 17 UUCP Domain: pete@ecrcvax.UUCP D-8000 Muenchen 81, West Germany X25: (262)-45890040262 CSNET:pete%ecrcvax.UUCP@Germany.CSNET Login: <to be provided?> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jpm@calmasd.UUCP (John McNally) (11/20/85)
> "'Gringo' is the term Mexicans gave the American (English). It may > be from Sp. 'griego', Greek (as in 'It's Greek to me.'); but it is > commonly supposed to be from the opening words of a song by Burns, > popular with the soldiers in the Mexican War: > Green grow the rashes O > The happiest hours that ere I spent > Were spent among the lasses O. > Soldier themes vary little down the ages." > > Now we have three hypotheses, with no substantiation for any of them. > -- > Jeff Lichtman at rtech (Relational Technology, Inc.) I was always under the impression that the term "gringo" was invented by the Mexicans in response to mid-1800 intrusions into Mexico by U.S. troops. These troops were, not surprisingly, unpopular with the Mexican citizens. These troops also wore green uniforms. The Mexicans, who speak Spanish, expressed their displeasure at the Yanks by shouting "green go", meaning "You guys with the green uniforms go home". Of course, with a Spanish pronunciation this comes out "Gringo". Note that the pronunciation of "i" in spanish is like a long "e" in English and an "o" in Spanish is always pronounced like a long "o" in English. -- John McNally GE/Calma 11080 Roselle St. San Diego CA 92121 ...{ucbvax | decvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!jpm (619)-458-3230
radzy@calma.UUCP (Tim Radzykewycz) (11/20/85)
In article <775@cornell.UUCP> dailey@cornell.UUCP (John Hudgins Dailey) writes: >I had heard that "gringo" came from the fact that in one of >the U.S.'s confrontations in Latin America ( the Spanish-Am. >war or perhaps Texas' fight for independence) the North >American soldiers wore green uniforms. The other side would >chant " Green(s) go (home)". I've also heard this version of the origin of "gringo". Unfortunately, I don't beleive any of the origins posted so far, including this one. That's not to say that I beleive they are all wrong, but rather, that I recognize them all as "folk etymology", and thus not to be trusted. If there is a linguist out there who has done research into this word (I know they used to get PhD's for thoroughly researching the history of a word, so asking this here isn't quite so crazy as it seems), could you please give us an enlightenment? Please include references, related words, and history, including phonetic changes and the phonetic rules which caused these changes. Also, include why you were researching it and your credentials (e.g. Master's study for AM degree, amateur study as hobby, etc). -- Tim (radzy) Radzykewycz, The Incredible Radical Cabbage calma!radzy@ucbvax.ARPA {ucbvax,sun,csd-gould}!calma!radzy
franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) (11/22/85)
In article <749@rtech.UUCP> jeff@rtech.UUCP (Jeff Lichtman) writes: >I looked up "Green Grow the Rushes, Ho" in the "Fireside Book of Folk Songs". >It didn't seem to me to be the type of song soldiers would sing, for marching >or otherwise. Here are the first couple of verses: > > I'll sing you one-ho! > Green grow the rushes-ho. > What is your one-ho? > One is one and all alone, > And evermore shall be so. >[...] > >Doesn't exactly sound like a marching song that would help the soldiers keep >cadence and inspire them to do battle, does it? You have obviously never heard the song. It has a very strong beat, and could be marched to very easily. As for inspiring them to do battle, that is rather a secondary concern for marching songs. >Then I looked in the >"Dictionary of Word Origins" by Joseph T. Shipley. It says: > > "'Gringo' is the term Mexicans gave the American (English). It may > be from Sp. 'griego', Greek (as in 'It's Greek to me.'); but it is > commonly supposed to be from the opening words of a song by Burns, > popular with the soldiers in the Mexican War: > Green grow the rashes O > The happiest hours that ere I spent > Were spent among the lasses O. > Soldier themes vary little down the ages." Then again, they may well have sung this variant some large fraction of the time. Frank Adams ihpn4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108
drg@rlvd.UUCP (Duncan Gibson) (11/22/85)
I have heard that the word Yankee comes from a time when there was a great influx of Dutch (?) settlers to the US, and that the typical Dutch (?) name of the period was "Jan Guy" or something similar, which was corrupted to Yankee. I notice that people keep spelling it Yanqui, so I was wondering what the derivation really was. I have also heard gringo is derived from "Green grow the Rushes..." -- UUCP: ..!ukc!rlvd![rlvc!]drg ARPA: drg%rl.vc@ucl.cs JANET: drg@rl.vc
rpt@warwick.UUCP (Richard Tomlinson) (11/22/85)
In article <348@ubvax.UUCP> tonyw@ubvax.UUCP (Tony Wuersch) writes: >... Again, no surprise that >the language is built so that anti-nationalistic sentiments can't >be expressed in simple language. I don't see how the development of the English language could possibly affect the way Americans express anti-nationalistic sentiments because English developed in England (never have guessed that, would you?!) over many centuries from Anglo-Saxon and other Northern European languages. I think it is about time Americans from the USA realised it is not their language AND to stop misspelling it. Sorry about that flame but I get very annoyed about the reaction from the USA to our language, as do many other people I know. Richard. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ...!mcvax!ukc!warwick!rpt
rgh@inmet.UUCP (11/24/85)
Re etymology of "gringo":
The American Heritage Dictionary offers:
[Spanish gringo (origin obscure), unknown tongue, gibberish]
John Ciardi, in The Browser's Dictionary,
supports the derivation of gringo from "griego" (Greek).
("It's Greek to me".) He spends about a half-page on this word --
alas, this is not a book I yet own, or I would quote it.
Randy Hudson {ihnp4,ima}!inmet!rghsra@oddjob.UUCP (Scott R. Anderson) (11/28/85)
<Time to turn up the heat in England; as if they don't get enough from OUR gulf stream! :-> In article <333@snow.warwick.UUCP> rpt@warwick.UUCP (Richard Tomlinson) writes: >English developed in England (never have guessed that, would you?!) >over many centuries from Anglo-Saxon and other Northern European languages. >I think it is about time Americans from the USA realised it is not their >language AND to stop misspelling it. > Sorry about that flame but I get very annoyed about the reaction from >the USA to our language, as do many other people I know. It's not our language, eh? Maybe we should set up a language academy in London to tell the rest of the English-speaking world the correct way to use the language they are borrowing from those generous British? Better yet, since that other Northern European language Richard won't mention is French, maybe we should let the Academy in Paris make those decisions for *all* of us? (After all, isn't English just misspelled and mispronounced French? :-). -- Scott Anderson ihnp4!oddjob!kaos!sra
mmar@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (Mitchell Marks) (12/01/85)
> From: drg@rlvd.UUCP (Duncan Gibson) > Message-ID: <942@rlvd.UUCP> > Date: Fri, 22-Nov-85 03:54:46 CST > Keywords: yanqui > > Yankee. I notice that people keep spelling it Yanqui, so I was wondering > what the derivation really was. The spelling 'Yanqui' is fairly recent (post 1960, say), and won't tell us anything about the origin of 'Yankee' in English. The spelling is a way of making the pronunciation clear to Spanish-readers; or perhaps is some gringo's attempt to convey a spanish accent. The original context, of course, was "Yanqui, !go home!" I've been following the gringo debate, and have been rather skeptical about the "Green(s), go!" story: why would they shout in English. But if "Yanqui, go home" was in English, why not this too? (I still like the "Green grow the rushes-o" story better.) Does anybody know the facts?: 1. Was "Yanqui, go home" ever in fact a popular cry of Latin American crowds, at U.S. official visitors? 2. If so, was it in English as quoted, or in Spanish? -- -- Mitch Marks @ UChicago ...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!mmar
myers@uwmacc.UUCP (Latitudinarian Lobster) (12/01/85)
> > > > Yankee. I notice that people keep spelling it Yanqui, so I was wondering > > what the derivation really was. > > The spelling 'Yanqui' is fairly recent (post 1960, say), and won't tell > us anything about the origin of 'Yankee' in English. The spelling is > a way of making the pronunciation clear to Spanish-readers; or perhaps > is some gringo's attempt to convey a spanish accent. The original context, > of course, was "Yanqui, !go home!" Yanqui is how you spell Yankee in Spanish. You also sometimes see it spelled Yanki.
prl@ethz.UUCP (Peter Lamb) (12/04/85)
<Re: Earlier discussion about the origins of 'gringo' and 'yankee'> Re the etymological theories regarding 'gringo', looked in the Shorter OED & the Concise OED, which both have the word and an etymology, and they claim that 'gringo' is a Spanish word meaning 'gibberish'. I would like to say that this confirms speculation on the net about American English, but unfortunately the definition they give includes *all* English speakers. This definition, of course, does not necessarily contradict the 'Green grow the rushes, O' theory, I've never really understood the song either :-) Please do _not_ mail me explanations of Green Grow the Rushes, nor flame me about the OED editors (lack) of knowlege of either Spanish or etymology. Peter Lamb (...mcvax!cernvax!ethz!prl) ETH Zurich Switzerland
jsq@im4u.UUCP (John Quarterman) (12/06/85)
In article <259@ethz.UUCP> prl@ethz.UUCP (Peter Lamb) writes: ><Re: Earlier discussion about the origins of 'gringo' and 'yankee'> >Re the etymological theories regarding 'gringo', looked in >the Shorter OED & the Concise OED, which both have the word >and an etymology, and they claim that 'gringo' is a Spanish word meaning >'gibberish'. I would like to say that this confirms speculation on the net >about American English, but unfortunately the definition they give includes >*all* English speakers. The original discussion was about the Spanish word gringo, not what the same letters might spell in England. Anyone who's ever been to Mexico or points south knows that that is not the primary meaning of gringo. Here are some definitions from a relatively reliable but concise Spanish dictionary, the Peque~no Larousse Ilustrado. It ain't too scholarly, but it is Spanish (I know it's published in Paris, but the editor and contributors weren't). Sloppy English translations by me. GRINGO, GA adj. y s. Despect. Extranjero, especialmente ingl'es. || Amer. Nombre con que se designa a los ingleses o norteamericanos. || Fam. Hablar en gringo, hablar en lenguaje ininteligible. (Slang. Foreigner, especially English. || American usage. Name with which to designate English or North Americans. || Familiar usage. To speak in gringo, to speak unintelligibly. NORTEAMERICANO, NA adj. y s. Natural de un pais de Am'erica del Norte y especialmente de los Estados Unidos. (Native of a country of North America and especially of the United States.) YANKEE o YANQUI adj. y s. Norteamericano. I should point out that to European Spanish speakers the primary gringo nationality may be English but near and in the U.S. it's norteamericano. Otherwise, these definitions agree with every other Spanish dictionary I've ever seen. Etymologies are another question. I ran into a Catholic priest the other day who grew up in central and south America and spoke Spanish as a second language very early. Someone asked him what the origin of "gringo" was. He immediately broke into a rendition of "Green Grow the Lilacs". I told him the anecdote I had heard about U.S. troops singing the song as they invaded Mexico shortly after Texas joined the Union (1845). He agreed that was the same as he had always understood. I pointed out that some believed that the word was derived from griego, for Greek. He remarked that he could see how that could be plausible, if foreign were implied by griego. However, the song derivation more closely matched his observations of how nicknames and other appellations came about in Spanish: according to something a person said or did. (Has anyone considered parallels with "honky" or "barbarian"? They both come from impressions of the way people speak. Coincidentally enough, both, like gringo, were commonly applied by the people who originated them (American blacks and ancient Greeks) to people of northern European extraction, though at somewhat different times....) Maybe I'll mosey down to the local research library and see if any Spanish etymological dictionaries have anything interesting to say. -- John Quarterman, UUCP: {gatech,harvard,ihnp4,pyramid,seismo}!ut-sally!im4u!jsq ARPA Internet and CSNET: jsq@im4u.UTEXAS.EDU, jsq@sally.UTEXAS.EDU