[net.nlang] origin of "crap"

jbuck@epicen.UUCP (Joe Buck) (12/04/85)

In article <829@ecsvax.UUCP> dgary@ecsvax.UUCP (D Gary Grady) writes:
>In article <767@rtech.UUCP> jeff@rtech.UUCP (Jeff Lichtman) writes:
>>Someone once wrote a book called "Flushed With Pride", which claimed that the
>>inventor of the flush toilet was a man named "Thomas Crapper", and that the
>>word "crap" was derived from his name.  Although the book was a hoax . . .
>
>You'd think _Flushed with Pride_ would *have* to be a hoax, but...  I
>keep hearing otherwise!  I have even seen it claimed that Crapper
>received a patent, and that the company he founded still exists.  Does
>anyone have any solid (pardon the expression) evidence one way or the
>other?  I've been wondering about this for a long time.

Others have already given references to dictionaries explaining the hoax.
The reason you've been hearing it a lot lately is because it's one of
dozens of wrong answers in the game "Trivial Pursuit". The game also has
questions with no right answer, such as "Where does the atmosphere end
and space begin, within twenty miles" (they say the answer is 120).

I can also assure you that it's not an acronym, and neither is "f**k".
Acronyms are a very modern invention, and not likely to be invented by
people who can't read, write, or spell. The lower classes, not the aristocracy,
used words like crap and f**k.

I'm adding net.nlang and directing followups there. That's the group
where they endlessly debate the origin of "OK" and such things.
-- 
Joe Buck				|  Entropic Processing, Inc.
UUCP: {ucbvax,ihnp4}!dual!epicen!jbuck  |  10011 N. Foothill Blvd.
ARPA: dual!epicen!jbuck@BERKELEY.ARPA   |  Cupertino, CA 95014

slb@drutx.UUCP (Sue Brezden) (12/04/85)

>dozens of wrong answers in the game "Trivial Pursuit". The game also has
>questions with no right answer, such as "Where does the atmosphere end
>and space begin, within twenty miles" (they say the answer is 120).

Another of the same ilk is "Do Buddhists eat meat" (from the Genus II
edition).  You will get two answers to this question--depending on whether
you are talking to a Chinese Buddhist or a Tibetan Buddhist.

And the one they got me on:  "Where was it said `Oh, brave new world, that 
has such people in it'?"  They claimed "Brave New World"--I answered "The
Tempest".  Sigh.
-- 

                                     Sue Brezden
                                     ihnp4!drutx!slb

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      To search for perfection is all very well,
      But to look for heaven is to live here in hell.   
                                       --Sting
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

lambert@boring.UUCP (12/10/85)

In article <226@argon.kcl-cs.UUCP> phil@argon.UUCP (Phil Thompson) writes:
> In article <76@nbs-amrf.UUCP> hopp@nbs-amrf.UUCP (Ted Hopp) writes:
>>> One question: The person who flamed me called my article "crap". [...]
>>> What does the word "crap" mean?
>> The word "crap" literally means "trash".  It has the additional connotation
>> of excrement or something equally unappealing.
> The origin of the word "crap" is Thomas Crapper. He invented the first
> flushing toilet. So "crap", if it means anything, means excrement.

I seem to remember that the first time I heard or read about Thomas Crapper
(I don't remember which, where and when; maybe Martin Gardner's column in
Scientific American?), it was presented as one in a series of hoaxes.
Since then, I have encountered several people who firmly believe in the
historical authenticity of this person, there apparently existing a
biography that even features a photograph of his store from which the
flushing toilet started its flush of victory.

However, several dictionaries give an etymology of crap as coming from
Middle English "crappe", meaning something like "useless residuals" and
stemming from or related to a now obsolete Middle Dutch word.  Others don't
have the word (in this meaning) at all.  None that I consulted mention one
Thomas Crapper.

I am quite confused now.  There seem to be at least the following
possibilities:

i)   The Thomas Crapper story is a clever hoax, including a faked biography.
ii)  Thomas Crapper did exist, but his name is an ironic play of fate (or
     maybe it predisposed him to make this particular invention:-).
iii) T.C. did exist and donated his name to the instrument used for the
     activity of excretion, and thereby, by back-formation, to "crap".
     The etymology in the dictionaries is false.
iv)  Although the etymology is not false, Crapper was instrumental in
     revitalizing a word on the verge of obsolescence and specializing
     its meaning to its current excremental connotation.

Who can shed light on this?  Of particular interest is evidence of T.C.'s
inventorship of the flushing toilet (such as a patent issued in his name;
but from an independent source, not from the biography).

By the way, did you know that "Flushing toilets" are called thus because
they were first produced and employed in Flushing?
-- 

     Lambert Meertens
     ...!{seismo,okstate,garfield,decvax,philabs}!lambert@mcvax.UUCP
     CWI (Centre for Mathematics and Computer Science), Amsterdam

stewart@ihlpf.UUCP (R. J. Stewart) (12/11/85)

< I can't believe I'm getting in on this discussion >

> [speculation on the origin of "crap"]
>
> By the way, did you know that "Flushing toilets" are called thus because
> they were first produced and employed in Flushing?

Let's not start another round of false etymology!  "Flushing" is an
adjective, from the verb "to flush", meaning: to pour liquid over or
through; esp: to cleanse or wash out with or as if with a rush of
liquid.

Flush comes from the Latin "fluere" - to flow, which also gives us the
words "fluid" and "flux".

Bob Stewart
ihnp4!ihlpf!stewart