ellis@spar.UUCP (Michael Ellis) (11/29/85)
>I get the impression that renumbering the days of the week so they >start with Monday is a recent European rationalization of "Sunday is >our Sabbath so it must be the 7th day of the week"; customary usage in >the USA is that the week starts on Sunday, whereas I remember learning >the days of the week in French as "<monday>, <tuesday>..." (Sorry, but I >never could spell them) - Bill Stewart The 7 days of the week fit nicely into the ancient cosmic scheme with 7 (visible) non-stationary astronomical bodies, which were, of course, considered to be gods. What is odd is the mapping of the GraecoRoman gods to the Teutonic ones: Object French English Danish Teutonic Names sun [dimanche] sunday s0ndag sun moon lundi monday mandag moon mars mardi tuesday tirsdag E.Tiw mercury mercredi wednesday onsdag E.Weden, G.Wotan, S.Odin jupiter jeudi thursday torsdag G.Donner/S.Thor venus vendredi friday fredag G.Freia+Fricka saturn [samedi] [saturday] loerdag E.{low/ley=flame},G.Loge,S.Loki Tiw, which is cognate with ju-piter and zeus (IE. dy[eo]us = `day,sky'), was equated with mars; the teutonic king of the gods (weden) was equated with mercury; the god of thunder (thor) with jupiter; and the sly god of fire (loki) with saturn. These equations make no sense whatsoever! Can anybody explain this? And why do we call it `saturday' rather than `leyday/lowday', which is what I suspect would be the AngloSaxon equivalent of Danish `loerdag' if it had survived? -michael
ins_atrh@jhunix.UUCP (Thomas Richard Holtz) (12/02/85)
In article <674@spar.UUCP> ellis@spar.UUCP (Michael Ellis) writes: >>I get the impression that renumbering the days of the week so they >>start with Monday is a recent European rationalization of "Sunday is >>our Sabbath so it must be the 7th day of the week"; customary usage in >>the USA is that the week starts on Sunday, whereas I remember learning >>the days of the week in French as "<monday>, <tuesday>..." (Sorry, but I >>never could spell them) - Bill Stewart > > The 7 days of the week fit nicely into the ancient cosmic scheme with 7 > (visible) non-stationary astronomical bodies, which were, of course, > considered to be gods. What is odd is the mapping of the GraecoRoman > gods to the Teutonic ones: > >Object French English Danish Teutonic Names > >sun [dimanche] sunday s0ndag sun >moon lundi monday mandag moon >mars mardi tuesday tirsdag E.Tiw >mercury mercredi wednesday onsdag E.Weden, G.Wotan, S.Odin >jupiter jeudi thursday torsdag G.Donner/S.Thor >venus vendredi friday fredag G.Freia+Fricka >saturn [samedi] [saturday] loerdag E.{low/ley=flame},G.Loge,S.Loki > > Tiw, which is cognate with ju-piter and zeus (IE. dy[eo]us = `day,sky'), > was equated with mars; the teutonic king of the gods (weden) was equated > with mercury; the god of thunder (thor) with jupiter; and the sly god > of fire (loki) with saturn. These equations make no sense whatsoever! > > Can anybody explain this? And why do we call it `saturday' rather than > `leyday/lowday', which is what I suspect would be the AngloSaxon > equivalent of Danish `loerdag' if it had survived? Okay. First of all, the equation of Tyr with Mars is a little wierd, but not too much so. Tyr/Tiw is god of law and honor (as in the incident with the Fenris Wolf and Tyr's hand), but he is also a war god, as is Mars. Odin/Woden and Mercury have one major aspect in common: magic. Mercury, in many forms (especially the alchemaic Hermes Trimegistos) was associated with magic, and Odin is the archetype of the Nordic wizard (broad rimmed hat, magic staff, and all). Both Thor and Jupiter are thunderers, who throw around lightning bolts and such for fun. Loki and Saturn make a strange pair, too. You could say that they have the common attribute of not being on the same side as the rest of the gods (Saturn/Kronos is a Titan, not an Olympian; Loki is a half-giant whose true loyalties are revealed at the end of Time), but that's a reach if ever I heard (or uttered) one. Now, as for the lack of a leyday in English, I think it may have something to do with the "Romanization" of the language by the Normans after 1066. Thomas R. Holtz, Jr.
andersa@kuling.UUCP (Anders Andersson) (12/05/85)
In article <674@spar.UUCP> ellis@spar.UUCP (Michael Ellis) writes: >Object French English Danish Teutonic Names > >sun [dimanche] sunday s0ndag sun >moon lundi monday mandag moon >mars mardi tuesday tirsdag E.Tiw >mercury mercredi wednesday onsdag E.Weden, G.Wotan, S.Odin >jupiter jeudi thursday torsdag G.Donner/S.Thor >venus vendredi friday fredag G.Freia+Fricka >saturn [samedi] [saturday] loerdag E.{low/ley=flame},G.Loge,S.Loki > > Tiw, which is cognate with ju-piter and zeus (IE. dy[eo]us = `day,sky'), > was equated with mars; the teutonic king of the gods (weden) was equated > with mercury; the god of thunder (thor) with jupiter; and the sly god > of fire (loki) with saturn. These equations make no sense whatsoever! > > Can anybody explain this? And why do we call it `saturday' rather than > `leyday/lowday', which is what I suspect would be the AngloSaxon > equivalent of Danish `loerdag' if it had survived? Maybe nobody put any effort in making equations at all? I guess that these names have developed independently of each other, and that in the past different languages adopted different mixes of them, regardless of origin. E.Tiw = S.Tyr, it seems? "Loerdag" (the same in both Swedish and Danish) is not derived from the name of the god Loke, but from "loegardag", or the day you wash yourself. "Loega" (to wash) is an almost extinct Swedish word today (I don't know for Danish). No, the custom once so named is however not extinct, fortunately... -- Anders Andersson, Dept. of Computer Systems, Uppsala University, Sweden Phone: +46 18 183170 UUCP: andersa@kuling.UUCP (...!{seismo,mcvax}!enea!kuling!andersa)
ian@wcwvax.UUCP (Ian Kemmish) (12/05/85)
> Tiw, which is cognate with ju-piter and zeus (IE. dy[eo]us = `day,sky'), > was equated with mars; the teutonic king of the gods (weden) was equated > with mercury; the god of thunder (thor) with jupiter; and the sly god > of fire (loki) with saturn. These equations make no sense whatsoever! > > Can anybody explain this? And why do we call it `saturday' rather than > `leyday/lowday', which is what I suspect would be the AngloSaxon > equivalent of Danish `loerdag' if it had survived? I remember reading (admittedly in a coffee-table book!) a speculation that Saturday came from an obscure Northern deity called "Surtur" who *I think* presided over the time leading up to Goetterdaemmerung. Hence, by association, became the god of "the ends of things" and in particular the week! I guess Surtur and Saturn could well be cognate. I've always liked the idea; now's my chance to ask someone who might know the answer if there's any grain of truth in it!!
thorinn@diku.UUCP (Lars Henrik Mathiesen) (12/06/85)
In article <674@spar.UUCP> ellis@spar.UUCP (Michael Ellis) writes: >saturn [samedi] [saturday] loerdag E.{low/ley=flame},G.Loge,S.Loki I think the accepted etymology for "loerdag" in danish is `washing-day'; I am not sure whether saturday once had an other name - this might be the original rendering of the foreign (Latin?/German?) name of the day. -- Lars Mathiesen, DIKU, Copenhagen, Denmark. ..!mcvax!diku!thorinn
carnes@gargoyle.UUCP (Richard Carnes) (12/07/85)
>> And why do we call it `saturday' rather than >> `leyday/lowday', which is what I suspect would be the AngloSaxon >> equivalent of Danish `loerdag' if it had survived? > >... I think it may have something >to do with the "Romanization" of the language by the Normans after 1066. No -- it is related to the fact that the British Isles did not come under Christian influence until several centuries after most of the rest of Europe. The origin of the 7-day week is an interesting story: The astrological week of seven days (named after the seven ancient "planets") evolved in Alexandria around the 2nd century B.C. After Julius Caesar conquered Egypt in the 1st century B.C., the astrological week spread through the areas ruled by Rome. The Jewish seven-day week evolved independently. The early Christians knew Saturday as the Jewish "Shabbath," and adopted this name for "dies Saturni." (The Jews identified the Sabbath and Saturn's Day, and named the planet Saturn after the Sabbath. Some of the ancients speculated that the Shabbath was a good day to take a rest anyway, since it was inauspicious as belonging to Saturn! -- cf. the word "saturnine.") Christians also changed Sunday ("dies Soli") to "the Lord's day" ("dies Domini") but retained the astrological names for the other days of the week, since they had no particular religious significance. (The early Christians associated the Lord with the sun in various ways; e.g., December 25 was chosen to celebrate Christ's nativity at least in part because it was traditionally the "birthday" of the sun after the winter solstice.) Christian influence spread rapidly in the Empire, and today the Romance languages use the Christian names for Saturday (sabato (It.), sabado (Sp.), samedi (Fr.)) and for Sunday (domingo, dimanche, etc.). However, Rome lost control of Britain early on, and there was little or no Christianization of Britain for several centuries into the Christian era. Consequently the astrological names became established, and today English, the Celtic languages of the British Isles, and Dutch are the only European languages which retain the astrological name for Saturday, as also for Sunday, along with German, Danish, and some others. The days which are named after Teutonic gods were apparently named by an attempt to identify these gods with Roman counterparts. German speakers, however, scored a coup by naming Wednesday "Midweek," which must help German speakers get through a tough week. The full story on the week can be found in the ultimate book on the subject, *The Seven-Day Circle* by E. Zerubavel. -- Richard Carnes, ihnp4!gargoyle!carnes
wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) (12/09/85)
More of the strange relationship of the net to television: Just this Saturday, on the syndicated show "The Start of Something Big" (or something like that), with Steve Allen, one of the topics covered was the origin of the seven-day week! He mentioned that some African tribes has four-day weeks, other cultures had 5 and 6-day weeks, and that the seven-day week originated with the Babylonians. (Why do topics appear on the net and then shortly thereafter on US TV? I could understand the reverse, but this is strange...) Will
rjw@ptsfc.UUCP (Rod Williams) (12/10/85)
> ...and today English, the Celtic languages of the British >Isles, and Dutch are the only European languages which retain the >astrological name for Saturday, as also for Sunday, along with >German, Danish, and some others. Not quite...true, the Irish Gaelic for Saturday is Satharn, but Sunday is Domhnach (the lord's day) just like the Romance languages. Christianity came to Ireland, in the person of none other than St. Patrick, in the mid-5th Century - quite a bit later than mainland Europe and Britain. -- rod williams | {ihnp4,dual}!ptsfa!ptsfc!rjw ------------------------------------------- pacific bell | san ramon | california
carnes@gargoyle.UUCP (Richard Carnes) (12/10/85)
>However, Rome lost control of Britain early on...
Oops -- Rome maintained at least formal control of Britain up to
Hadrian's Wall near the Tyne from the mid-1st century A.D. to the 5th
century. I'm not sure when Britain became Christian, but I believe
it was comparatively late.
--
Richard Carnes, ihnp4!gargoyle!carnesanderson@ucla-cs.UUCP (12/13/85)
> The 7 days of the week fit nicely into the ancient cosmic scheme with 7 > (visible) non-stationary astronomical bodies, which were, of course, > considered to be gods. What is odd is the mapping of the GraecoRoman > gods to the Teutonic ones: > > Object French English Danish Teutonic Names > saturn [samedi] [saturday] loerdag E.{low/ley=flame},G.Loge,S.Loki > Tiw, which is cognate with ju-piter and zeus (IE. dy[eo]us = `day,sky'), > was equated with mars; the teutonic king of the gods (weden) was equated > with mercury; the god of thunder (thor) with jupiter; and the sly god > of fire (loki) with saturn. These equations make no sense whatsoever! > > Can anybody explain this? And why do we call it `saturday' rather than > `leyday/lowday', which is what I suspect would be the AngloSaxon > equivalent of Danish `loerdag' if it had survived? > Several messages posted to this newsgroup lately have explored the significance of the apparent equation of Germanic Loki with Saturn which seems to be implied by the relation of e.g. Danish loerdag with English Saturday. However interesting the mythological significance of this relation, though, it IS mythical: Danish loerdag is a modern reflex of Old Norse laugar-dagr (cf. also modern Icelandic laugardagur), literally "bath-day", from the Noun laug "hot-spring; bath". Loki had nothing to do with it. Steve Anderson Dept. of Linguistics, UCLA beaune!anderson@locus.ucla.edu ijq3sra@uclamvs.bitnet