[net.nlang] Call for Proper Noun Idioms

solomon@aero.ARPA (Steve Solomon) (12/19/85)

I am interested in idiomatic expressions in English and other languages
that uses proper nouns, from linguistic and cultural perspectives. The
classic English examples,

(1) It's Greek to me.
and the VP
(2) To carry coals to Newcastle

convey exotic language (a sort of meta-semantic variable) and
superfluousness, respectively.

German data:                            (Gloss)

(3) Es kommt mir Spanisch vor.          (1) It's Spanish to me.
and
(4) Eulen nach Athen tragen             (2) To carry owls to Athens

The burning question is, in the case of (1) and (3), what constitutes
the notion of 'exotic' in different languages?

Hebrew for (1) is 'Chinese' and I suspect many languages also use the
metaphor of 'Chinese' to express some incomprehensible vernacular within
a language or generic foreign language.

Two variants of (3) are

(5) Es kommt mir vor wie Spanische Doerfer.
        (It's like Spanish villages to me)
and
(6) Es kommt mir vor wie Boehmische Doerfer.    (Bohemian villages)

What are some other data in other languages? Speakers of Scandinavian
(incl. Finnish) African, and Asian languages, let's hear your input!

(It wouldn't surprise me if Russian for (1) were "It's Russian to me"
since that part of the world is "an enigma wrapped in a puzzle shrouded
behind a mystery." :-)  But it's probably Armenian instead.)

On a related note, what are the places thought of as neutrally exotic,
i.e. without a meaning of punishment (Methinks Siberia is universal) or
boredom if one were sent there?
        English         (7) ?(Outer) Mongolia
                        (8) *(Northern) Slobovia
        Hebrew          (9) Honolulu
(7) comes close, and seems to be simply far removed, but does convey a hint
of punishment (hence the '?').
(8) is semantically equivalent to 'Siberia'

I remember seeing as a kid the film "Krakatoa, East of Java" which
became, for a while, an exotic place idiom.

Can we get more data?

At the risk of singing to the choir, can we also get data in other
languages (even Bambara would be appreciated) for idioms that convey
superfluousness ("coals to Newcastle")?

Is the German "owls to Athens," aside from being alliterative, from
another source, such as Latin, whence "cum granno salis" --> "with a
grain of salt" and "mit einem Koernchen Salz"?

Steve Solomon
solomon@aero.UUCP
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From: solomon@aero.ARPA (Steve Solomon)
Newsgroups: net.nlang
Subject: Call for Proper Noun Idioms
Message-ID: <161@aero.ARPA>
Date: 19 Dec 85 20:52:59 GMT
Date-Received: 19 Dec 85 23:06:33 GMT
Reply-To: solomon@aero.UUCP (Steve Solomon)
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA
Lines: 63
Keywords: Proper Nouns, Idioms

I am interested in idiomatic expressions in English and other languages
that uses proper nouns, from linguistic and cultural perspectives. The
classic English examples,

(1) It's Greek to me.
and the VP
(2) To carry coals to Newcastle

convey exotic language (a sort of meta-semantic variable) and
superfluousness, respectively.

German data:                            (Gloss)

(3) Es kommt mir Spanisch vor.          (1) It's Spanish to me.
and
(4) Eulen nach Athen tragen             (2) To carry owls to Athens

The burning question is, in the case of (1) and (3), what constitutes
the notion of 'exotic' in different languages?

Hebrew for (1) is 'Chinese' and I suspect many languages also use the
metaphor of 'Chinese' to express some incomprehensible vernacular within
a language or generic foreign language.

Two variants of (3) are

(5) Es kommt mir vor wie Spanische Doerfer.
        (It's like Spanish villages to me)
and
(6) Es kommt mir vor wie Boehmische Doerfer.    (Bohemian villages)

What are some other data in other languages? Speakers of Scandinavian
(incl. Finnish) African, and Asian languages, let's hear your input!

(It wouldn't surprise me if Russian for (1) were "It's Russian to me"
since that part of the world is "an enigma wrapped in a puzzle shrouded
behind a mystery." :-)  But it's probably Armenian instead.)

On a related note, what are the places thought of as neutrally exotic,
i.e. without a meaning of punishment (Methinks Siberia is universal) or
boredom if one were sent there?
        English         (7) ?(Outer) Mongolia
                        (8) *(Northern) Slobovia
        Hebrew          (9) Honolulu
(7) comes close, and seems to be simply far removed, but does convey a hint
of punishment (hence the '?').
(8) is semantically equivalent to 'Siberia'

I remember seeing as a kid the film "Krakatoa, East of Java" which
became, for a while, an exotic place idiom.

Can we get more data?

At the risk of singing to the choir, can we also get data in other
languages (even Bambara would be appreciated) for idioms that convey
superfluousness ("coals to Newcastle")?

Is the German "owls to Athens," aside from being alliterative, from
another source, such as Latin, whence "cum granno salis" --> "with a
grain of salt" and "mit einem Koernchen Salz"?

Steve Solomon
solomon@aero.UUCP

jim@randvax.UUCP (Jim Gillogly) (12/20/85)

In article <161@aero.ARPA> solomon@aero.UUCP (Steve Solomon) writes:
>I am interested in idiomatic expressions in English and other languages
>that uses proper nouns, from linguistic and cultural perspectives. The
>classic English examples,
>
>(1) It's Greek to me.
>(3) Es kommt mir Spanisch vor.         (1) It's Spanish to me.
>Hebrew for (1) is 'Chinese' and I suspect many languages also use the

The Esperanto phrase translates to "It's Volap"uk to me." (^Gi estas min
Volap"uka) (I think -- is that right, Neal?  Prentiss?).  I believe this
phrase was blessed by Zamenhof, the designer of the language.  Volap"uk
was an international language designed some years earlier than Esperanto,
and was one of the main reasons that Esperanto never quite took off: many
of the True Believers had been once burned.  It was notoriously
unintelligible: at the Volap"uk conferences nobody was able to speak it to
each other!
--
        Jim Gillogly
        {decvax, vortex}!randvax!jim
        jim@rand-unix.arpa

wyatt@cfa.UUCP (Bill Wyatt) (12/21/85)

> I am interested in idiomatic expressions in English and other languages
> that uses proper nouns, from linguistic and cultural perspectives. The
> classic English examples,
> 
> (1) It's Greek to me.
> and the VP
> (2) To carry coals to Newcastle

From _Native_Tongues_, by Charles Berlitz, Grosset & Dunlap, 1982:

English: It's Greek to me.
French:  It's Hebrew to me. [also] That's lesser Negro.
Spanish: That's Chinese to me.
German:  That seems like Sapnish to me.
Russian: That's Chinese grammar.
Italian: You're speaking Turkish.
Polish:  I'm hearing a Turkish sermon.

The chapter is entitled "The View from the Tribe" and tells how
the various groups view outsiders, blame them (linguistically) for
problems ranging from misunderstandings to disease. C.f.:

syphillis:
In England: The French Pox
In France:  The English sickness [or] Spanish gout [or] Neapolitan sickness
In Germany: The French disease
In mainland Greece: The Corinthian sickness
-- 
Bill    UUCP:  {harvard,genrad,allegra,ihnp4}!wjh12!cfa!wyatt
Wyatt   ARPA:  wyatt%cfa.UUCP@harvard.ARPA

tmoody@sjuvax.UUCP (T. Moody) (12/23/85)

[]
I think it's *lower* Slobovia.  I recall this locale from the defunct
"Li'l Abner" comic strip, by Al Capp.  I think that "Timbuktu" also 
designates a very remote place.  Also, I know two people, both from the
Baltimore area, who say something along the lines of "...we had to drive
all the way out to East Bumfuck and back..."  I've never heard anyone
*else* mention this picturesque place, but these two people do not know
each other, either.  Perhaps it's a Baltimore-ism.

Todd

franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) (12/24/85)

In article <161@aero.ARPA> solomon@aero.UUCP (Steve Solomon) writes:
>On a related note, what are the places thought of as neutrally exotic,
>i.e. without a meaning of punishment (Methinks Siberia is universal) or
>boredom if one were sent there?
>	English 	(7) ?(Outer) Mongolia
>			(8) *(Northern) Slobovia
>	Hebrew		(9) Honolulu

There is also the far side of the moon.  Not quite perfect, but close.

Frank Adams                           ihpn4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International    52 Oakland Ave North    E. Hartford, CT 06108

gabor@qantel.UUCP (Gabor Fencsik@ex2642) (12/31/85)

In article <157@cfa.UUCP> wyatt@cfa.UUCP (Bill Wyatt) writes:

>From _Native_Tongues_, by Charles Berlitz, Grosset & Dunlap, 1982:
>
>English: It's Greek to me.
>French:  It's Hebrew to me. [also] That's lesser Negro.
>Spanish: That's Chinese to me.
>German:  That seems like Spanish to me.
> ...

There is also a concoction that the Hungarians call a French salad; In Paris
it is known as a Russian salad; in Moscow they call it a Czech salad. I don't
know what the Czechs call it but I suspect the linguistic buck-passing must
end somewhere - or perhaps we have a closed cycle. It's just an ordinary
appetizer - someone ought to take responsibility for it.

-----
Gabor Fencsik                  {ihnp4,dual,lll-crg,hplabs}!qantel!gabor

christer@kuling.UUCP (Christer Johansson) (01/01/86)

-- 
SMail: Christer Johansson  EMail: {seismo,seismo!mcvax}!enea!kuling!christer OR
       Sernandersv. 9:136         christer@kuling.UUCP
       S-752 63  Uppsala   Phone: Int. +46 - 18 46 31 54
           SWEDEN                 Nat. 018 - 46 31 54

christer@kuling.UUCP (Christer Johansson) (01/01/86)

In article <161@aero.ARPA> of Sun, 22-Dec-85 04:54:23 GMT
solomon@aero.UUCP (Steve Solomon) writes:
>
>I am interested in idiomatic expressions in English and other languages
>that uses proper nouns, from linguistic and cultural perspectives.
>The burning question is [...] what constitutes
>the notion of 'exotic' in different languages?

It's Greece too me (Det {a"r} Grekiska f{o"}r mig) is an idiomatic expressin in
Swedish, thou I don't think many Swedes consider Greece 'exotic'.

'in the darkest of Africa' (I det m{o"}rkaste (av) Afrika) is an other
exprision of exotishness. I don't know in what sense Africa was considered
dark. This expression does, for some reason, give me the notion of jungle.
(Somewhere close to Tarzan's home. :-)

>On a related note, what are the places thought of as neutrally exotic,

China and Kualalumpur.
-- 
SMail: Christer Johansson  EMail: {seismo,seismo!mcvax}!enea!kuling!christer OR
       Sernandersv. 9:136         christer@kuling.UUCP
       S-752 63  Uppsala   Phone: Int. +46 - 18 46 31 54
           SWEDEN                 Nat. 018 - 46 31 54

andersa@kuling.UUCP (Anders Andersson) (01/01/86)

>>I am interested in idiomatic expressions in English and other languages
>>that uses proper nouns, from linguistic and cultural perspectives.
>>The burning question is [...] what constitutes
>>the notion of 'exotic' in different languages?

As speaking of the "exotic" Greek language seems to be common for at least
English and Swedish, I would like to add "rotvaelska", which is a Swedish
idiom for a non-understandable "nonsense language". It seems to me that the
origin of this word might be found in some old German dialect. Isn't there
a dog (breed) called Rotweiler to be related to some geographic area? Could
you Germans please elaborate on this..?

I've heard of an expression used in parts of Germany earlier in this
century, namely "die dumme Schweden" (the stupid Swedes). According to
the story, this has nothing to do with the inhabitants of Sweden. Rather,
when talking about the "Swedes", the speakers actually meant either the
Czech or the Slovaks (I don't remember, really), but they preferred not to
insult their closest neighbours litterally... Confirmation, anyone?
-- 
Anders Andersson, Dept. of Computer Systems, Uppsala University, Sweden
Phone: +46 18 183170
UUCP: andersa@kuling.UUCP (...!{seismo,mcvax}!enea!kuling!andersa)

lambert@boring.UUCP (Lambert Meertens) (01/01/86)

In article <869@kuling.UUCP> andersa@kuling.UUCP (Anders Andersson) writes:

>>> I am interested in idiomatic expressions in English and other languages
>>> that uses proper nouns, from linguistic and cultural perspectives.

> As speaking of the "exotic" Greek language seems to be common for at least
> English and Swedish, I would like to add "rotvaelska", which is a Swedish
> idiom for a non-understandable "nonsense language". It seems to me that the
> origin of this word might be found in some old German dialect. Isn't there
> a dog (breed) called Rotweiler to be related to some geographic area? Could
> you Germans please elaborate on this..?

I don't know about Swedish and am not German, but according to my
dictionary German ROTWELSCH means slang, argot, rather than gibberish.  An
expression for "gibberish" in Dutch is "Koeterwaals".  This could mean
something like "the language spoken in Koeterwaal" (several Dutch place
names end in -WAAL) except that there is no such place.  There is an
interesting corresponding between the ending -WAALS here and the ending
-VAELSKA in ROTVAELSKA.  Also, in Danish the expression is KAUDERVAELSK and
in German, next to ROTWELSCH, KAUDERWELSCH.  Before the spelling reform of
1947, the official spelling of Dutch WAALS was WAALSCH.  The German verb
KAUDERN by itself already means "to speak gibberish", as does WELSCHEN.
There is no Dutch word *KOETEREN.  WAALS in Dutch does not mean Welsh, but
French, in particular pertaining to the French-speaking part of Belgium
(Walloon).  Also, German WELSCH means French (not confined to Belgium) or
even Italian.  Etymologically, this is related to WELSH, both being
descendants of a Germanic word meaning "foreign", i.e. not Germanic, i.e.
Celtic or Roman.  Quite possibly, the expression KOETERWAALS goes back to a
time when the "foreignness" of WAALSCH was still a primary meaning.

I doubt that there is a connection with Rottweil (a German town in Baden-
Wuerttemberg, after which the breed of dogs is named), if only because that
is spelled with TT.
-- 

     Lambert Meertens
     ...!{seismo,okstate,garfield,decvax,philabs}!lambert@mcvax.UUCP
     CWI (Centre for Mathematics and Computer Science), Amsterdam

dawn@prism.UUCP (01/03/86)

In article <161@aero.ARPA> solomon@aero.UUCP (Steve Solomon) writes:
>On a related note, what are the places thought of as neutrally exotic,
>i.e. without a meaning of punishment (Methinks Siberia is universal) or
>boredom if one were sent there?

	My father, a New Englander and once a field service rep, often
	claimed he had to make service calls "out in East Overshoe".

T3B@PSUVM.BITNET (01/06/86)

Lambert Meertens writes:
>An
>expression for "gibberish" in Dutch is "Koeterwaals".  This could mean
>omething like "the language spoken in Koeterwaal" (several Dutch place
>ames end in -WAAL) except that there is no such place.  There is an
>nteresting corresponding between the ending -WAALS here and the ending
>VAELSKA in ROTVAELSKA.  Also, in Danish the expression is KAUDERVAELSK and
>In German, next to ROTWELSCH, KAUDERWELSCH.  Before the spelling reform of
>1947, the official spelling of Dutch WAALS was WAALSCH.  The German verb
>KAUDERN by itself already means "to speak gibberish", as does WELSCHEN.
     
     
This had never occured to me before, but reading Lambert Meertens's
posting seems to lead to the conclusion that the English word
CATERWAUL comes from the same source, and that the etymology and
definitions in NEW AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY (1981) may be
partly "folk linguistics." In this dictionary, which is the one
on my desk at the moment, CATERWAUL is defined as follows:
     
"1. To cry or screech like a cat in heat. 2. To make any discordant
sound or shriek. 3. To have a noisy argument. ---n. 1. The cry of
cats in heat. 2. Any similar cry. . . . perhaps from Low German
katerwaulen : kater, tomcat . . . + waulen, to screech."
     
Is the dictionary just guessing?  I'm not a linguist, and so I
really don't make any claims one way or the other. Cats or dogs?
     
   Tom Benson
   Department of Speech Communication
   The Pennsylvania State University
   227 Sparks Building
   University Park, PA 16802
   814-238-5277
     
     
     :akgua,allegra,ihnp4,cbosgd:!psuvax1!psuvm.bitnet!t3b   (UUCP)
     t3b%psuvm.bitnet@wiscvm.arpa (ARPA)
     T3B@PSUVM    (BITNET)
     
     
     

msb@lsuc.UUCP (Mark Brader) (01/08/86)

> >An expression for "gibberish" in Dutch is "Koeterwaals".  This could mean
> >something like "the language spoken in Koeterwaal" (several Dutch place
> >ames end in -WAAL) except that there is no such place.

> This had never occured to me before, but reading Lambert Meertens's
> posting seems to lead to the conclusion that the English word
> CATERWAUL comes from the same source, and that the etymology and
> definitions in NEW AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY (1981) may be
> partly "folk linguistics." ... [it says] perhaps from Low German
> katerwaulen : kater, tomcat . . . + waulen, to screech."

Why couldn't "Koeterwaals" be a play on "caterwaul/katerwaulen"
and the place-name-language ending "waals"?  Sounds good to me.

By the way, Random House and OED more or less confirm the origin
of "caterwaul".

Mark Brader

kort@hounx.UUCP (B.KORT) (01/12/86)

The Yiddish version of "Podunk" is "West Yechupetz".

lambert@boring.UUCP (Lambert Meertens) (01/14/86)

>>> An expression for "gibberish" in Dutch is "Koeterwaals".  This could mean
>>> something like "the language spoken in Koeterwaal" (several Dutch place
>>> names end in -WAAL) except that there is no such place.

>> This had never occured to me before, but reading Lambert Meertens's
>> posting seems to lead to the conclusion that the English word
>> CATERWAUL comes from the same source, and that the etymology and
>> definitions in NEW AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY (1981) may be
>> partly "folk linguistics." ... [it says] perhaps from Low German
>> katerwaulen : kater, tomcat . . . + waulen, to screech."

> Why couldn't "Koeterwaals" be a play on "caterwaul/katerwaulen"
> and the place-name-language ending "waals"?  Sounds good to me.

Kinship between words in different languages can be of several types.  The
main two are: (i) the words are "cognates" (which for the purpose of this
article I restrict to the case when the languages have a common ancestor
that already had a version of the word, and both took the word with them on
their evolutionary paths); and (ii) the word in language A is a "loan word"
from language B (and in the course of language evolution the word may have
been changed to conform to the phonology, morphology and spelling of A, may
have shifted its meaning and may have disappeared from B, so that it only
survives in A).

For example, English GOOD, Dutch GOED and German GUT are cognates; English
FURLOUGH was taken from Dutch VERLOF.  (Since the final F is not mute, the
GH was probably earlier pronounced as in ROUGH.  There is a slight change
of meaning, since Dutch VERLOF often means FURLOUGH, but is used also for
other kinds of LEAVE--a cognate of the component LOF--than those of
absence.)  In DOUBLEGANGER from German DOPPELGAENGER we see a partial
replacement by a cognate word; EIGENVALUE from EIGENWERT is much weirder
(EIGEN is cognate to OWN, but VALUE has no kinship or resemblance to WERT).

It may also happen that a word in language A is a neologism modelled after
a word in language B; if A and B are relatives, this may result in
something indistinguishable from cognates or loan words, except by
historical research.  An example is Dutch VERLOF, which was modelled after
German VERLAUB.  Although both words are built from cognate components,
they are not considered cognates in their entirety since VERLOF once was a
neologism.  It is not considered a loan word either, because at the time
the word was formed (and also now) the meaning of the newfangled word was
not so much VERLAUB, but rather URLAUB (or ERLAUBNIS), VERLAUB being only
used in the deferential phrase MIT VERLAUB = WITH [YOUR] PERMISSION.
However, the distinction with a loan word is tenuous in this case.  Other
possible influences are that an existing word in language A is modified
under the influence of a similar word in language B; this may involve the
spelling, the meaning, or both.

This host (from Old French [H]OST, cognate with GUEST) of possibilities
makes etymology a difficult science, fraught (from Dutch VRACHT, cognate
with FREIGHT) with pitfalls for amateurs like you and I.  Before
professional etymologists will admit so much as the plausibility of
cognation, the words in question must be derivable from an older common
form, for each of the languages involved in accordance with the
developmental laws for that language.  Furthermore, if one has to go back
as far as a reconstructed common ancestor X which has not been recorded,
than one wants to find the word attested in other descendants of X as well.
However, there are cases in which the cognation is so obvious as to be
unquestioned, but with quirks in the evolutionary development or with an
unexplainable lack of attesting forms in some descendants of the common
ancestor.  In the end, it all is a question of more or less plausible, in
the context of a whole web of plausibilities.

There is no doubt in my mind that the WAALS in KOETERWAALS and the WELSCH
in KAUDERWELSCH are related, and the most plausible is that they are
cognates, as is English WELSH.  In equating KOETER with KAUDER, however,
there is a huge problem: Dutch (and English) T can correspond to German Z
(TWEE/TWO/ZWEI) or SS (WATER/WATER/WASSER), and in later common loans,
often from Romanic languages, to German T (TOREN/TOWER/TURM), but not to
German D.  The converse would not be a problem (DEUR/DOOR/TUER,
VADER/FATHER/VATER, DUIZEND/THOUSAND/TAUSEND).  German D is always D in
Dutch cognate words and then TH (voiced or unvoiced) in English
(DAT/THAT/DASS, DIK/THICK/DICK) or D in English in later common loans
(DOZIJN/DOZEN/DUTZEND).  (In the triple DOM/DUMB/DUMM a Low German version
DUMM that kept the voicing of D like Dutch did superseded the Old High
German version TUMP, now extinct.)  Also, although Dutch OE can correspond
to German AU (BOER/BAUER), this is a rare and irregular happening, possibly
occasioned by the need to distinguish in Dutch between the meanings of
neighbour (now Dutch BUUR) and peasant, whereas the German form was
influenced by the verb BAUEN (to build); cf. Dutch LANDBOUW = agriculture,
whence LANDBOUWER.  Normally, Dutch OE corresponds to English OO and German
U or UE (VOET/FOOT/FUSS) and German AU to Dutch UI and English OU
(HUIS/HOUSE/HAUS).  In summary, for Dutch KOETER we should expect a German
counterpart *KU(E)SSER and for German KAUDER Dutch *KUIDER.  A regular
English counterpart to KOETER would be *COOTER and to KAUDER it would be
*COWTHER or possibly *KYTHER.

In view of the identical and specialized meanings, and an undeniable
resemblance, it seems unlikely at first sight that there is no genetic
relationship at all between KOETER and KAUDER.  [A correction to my earlier
article:  I stated: "There is no Dutch word *KOETEREN."  This is wrong.
Although I did never encounter the word before, it is listed in Dutch
dictionaries, with the same meaning as German KAUDERN, viz. to
gibber/jabber, or specifically to talk in a foreign language not understood
by the person who classifies this as KOETEREN.  The -EN is the Dutch
infinitive suffix to the stem KOETER.]  In view of the difficulties
mentioned above, it is highly implausible that both derive from one form in
Germanic.  In view of the fact that the pronunciations are well apart,
later loans, either in one language from the other or from a common source,
are also quite implausible.

Now where does this leave us?  It does not suffice to dispel the hypothesis
of a genetic relationship, but makes it rather more implausible than it
appeared on first sight.  To save the hypothesis, we have to invent a more
tortuous road.  For example, in some Dutch/Low German dialects, the Dutch
UI/High German AU vowel is represented by an /u/ sound (as in FOOT =
/fut/); rendered in Dutch orthography (/u/ = OE) we have HOES instead of
HUIS or HAUS.  So there, at least *KOEDER would be regular.  If the word is
a later borrowing in "High" Dutch from such a dialect, this could explain
the OE.  And so on (maybe).  More evidence would still be needed.

As to CATERWAUL, cognation with KOETERWAALS or KAUDERWELSH is implausible,
since huge problems in explaining vowel shifts are compounded with an a
priori less likely relationship because of the difference in meaning.
According to The Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology, the earliest
attested cognate formation is CATERWAWED (Chaucer: Wife of Bath's Prologue
354; some mss. have -WRAWET).  I don't have a copy of Chaucer; an
interesting question is whether the meaning there is already unmistakably
that of "noice (like that) produced by cats in rut".  There are many
reasons for not thinking KOETERWAALS to be a word play on CATERWAUL.  In
the first place, although there is a surprisingly large number of loan
words in English from Dutch or Low German, there are hardly any loan words
in English from Dutch, except for recent acquisitions that have kept
English spelling and usually pronunciation: COMPUTER, pronounced
/k)mpjut0r/; FOLKLORE, pronounced /f)lkl):r0/.  In fact, I cannot find even
one single example of a loan word from English that has been "Dutchified",
although I am sure there must be some.  Secondly, for a loan word such a
huge vowel shift as from /ae/ to /u/ is unexplainable.  To Dutch ears,
/kaet0rw):l/ sounds like /ket0rw)l/ and would be rendered *KETTERWOL.  A
literate person might have turned the word into something like
*KATERWAUWELEN (KATER = TOMCAT; WAUWELEN, which has the form of a
frequentive of *WAUWEN, = BLATHER, TWADDLE).  Thirdly, loan words usually
arise because the donating language has a word for a concept in want of an
embodiment in the receiving language (like CLOCK from Dutch KLOK filled the
need for a word for this new invention).  At the time of the loan, the
meaning of the imported word is at least one of the meanings of the
original (Dutch KLOK originally meant and still has as one of its meanings
BELL).  If CATERWAUL meant "wail like a cat" all the time, it would not
have been borrowed, since Dutch has no problem in expressing the concept.
Even if it had been borrowed nevertheless, the semantic shift from "cat
wailing" to "gibberish" is huge.  Finally, the evidence in the diagram

       Dutch        German       Danish       Swedish

       WAALS        WELSCH                                 (Romanic)
                    ROTWELSCH                 ROTVAELSKA   (argot)
       KOETERWAALS  KAUDERWELSCH KAUDERVAELSK              (gibberish)

in favor of -WAALS in KOETERWAALS being the "same" as stand-alone WAALS is
just too strong.

To return to the original subject, what about Double Dutch?

-- 

     Lambert Meertens
     ...!{seismo,okstate,garfield,decvax,philabs}!lambert@mcvax.UUCP
     CWI (Centre for Mathematics and Computer Science), Amsterdam

rjw@ptsfc.UUCP (Rod Williams) (01/14/86)

>The Yiddish version of "Podunk" is "West Yechupetz".

 And the Irish version is Ballygobackwards...
-- 

 rod williams | {ihnp4,dual}!ptsfa!ptsfc!rjw
 -------------------------------------------
 pacific bell |  san ramon  |  california

msb@lsuc.UUCP (Mark Brader) (01/16/86)

>> The Yiddish version of "Podunk" is "West Yechupetz".
>  And the Irish version is Ballygobackwards...

And the New Zealand version is "Waikikamukau".
(Looks like hundreds of real Maori names, but sounds like "Why kick a moo cow?")

Mark Brader
Not made in NZ, but sure enjoyed visiting...

gh@utai.UUCP (Graeme Hirst) (01/17/86)

>>> The Yiddish version of "Podunk" is "West Yechupetz".
>>  And the Irish version is Ballygobackwards...
> And the New Zealand version is "Waikikamukau".
> (Looks like hundreds of real Maori names, but sounds like "Why kick a moo cow?")

And in Australia, it's "Woop Woop" (the vowel is short) -- an imitation
aboriginal placename.
-- 
\\\\   Graeme Hirst    University of Toronto	Computer Science Department
////   utcsri!utai!gh  /  gh.toronto@csnet-relay  /  416-978-8747

jsq@im4u.UUCP (John Quarterman) (01/20/86)

Nobody seems to have mentioned "Bumfuck, Egypt".
It's commonly used in the South of the U.S.
-- 
John Quarterman, UUCP:  {gatech,harvard,ihnp4,pyramid,seismo}!ut-sally!im4u!jsq
ARPA Internet and CSNET:  jsq@im4u.UTEXAS.EDU, jsq@sally.UTEXAS.EDU