lambert@boring.uucp (Lambert Meertens) (02/16/86)
> Y-umlaut and y-umlaut (French, also used for the ij ligature in Dutch)
A y with two dots won't do for Dutch ij. This letter is usually quite
indistinguishable, both in print and in handwriting, from i followed by j,
which in print has a different appearance from a y with two dots.
Capitalized, we get IJ without dots.
Does any reader have a copy of the ISO document on the Latin 1 alphabet?
What is the exact wording here? Does anyone know a French word using a
dieresis (trema) on the y?
For those interested some information on the history and proper treatment
of Dutch ij:
1. Historically it is i+i, representing a long i vowel, sounding at the
time as English ee. The letter i used to be dimorphic, having both the now
standard i shape and a secundary j shape. The orthographic rule was: write
i with a j shape at the start of a syllable (justus instead of iustus) and
at the end of a train of i's (i, ij, iij, iv, v). The latter part of the
rule possibly developed from the former (in evangelij, the second i is a
syllable on its own). Later, the two forms became separate letters. Note
that this reflects a difference in pronunciation: a gilding y sound rather
than a pure vowel is heard at the start of a syllable. A rather similar
thing happened to dimorphic u (which spawned v). Dimorphic s monomorphized
again, exept that the f-like s survives in the integral sign (s for
summation) and in the first half of the German Ringel-ess (sz) ligature.
2. When Dutch spelling was still anarchy, y and ij were used
interchangeably for the ij vowel; later standardization settled on ij.
Prior to that, vowel shift had occurred in which the monophthong long i
became a diphthong, indistinguishable from ei. (With some exceptions.
Koffij refused to budge and is now spelled koffie. The word bijzonder,
meaning special, exceptional, went to a short i vowel (not the closed vowel
in English bit but a short version of the open ee in beet) as the only one
of many compounds formed with bij- but retained its spelling and so is
indeed exceptional. The very common Dutch suffix -lijk is pronounced with
a shwa but still spelled with ij. The third person male pronoun hij is
pronounced as one would expect when stressed or at the start of a phrase,
but in other situations more often as short i and without h. Finally,
dialectically the ee pronounciation may survive, which is only important
for toponyms, like Wijchen.)
3. It is not really clear whether ij should be considered one letter or
two letters representing one vowel (just like no-one would dream of calling
aa a ligature). At school, Dutch kids are taught an alphabet ending in ...
x, ij, y, z. Also, if a word starting with ij is capitalized, the result
is always IJ (so ijspret, the joy of ice skating, becomes IJspret). Some
Dutch typewriters have a separate ij key. If I use such a typewriter, I
won't touch that key because the result is esthetically less satisfying
than that of i+j.
4. Many Dutch are confused on this issue. It is not at all uncommon to
see y in lettered signs (sometimes with two dots, often without) where
there is no doubt that official spelling has ij. It is also common to see
the spelling byouterie for the French word bijouterie (jewelry shop) or to
see Dijon spelled Dyon, one letter apart from Lyon!
5. Really conclusive would be the sorting convention. (Although it is the
case that Spanish rr and ll are sorted as single letters, but are not
assigned positions in any character code proposal that I have heard of).
This, however, is anarchy. Most dictionaries sort ij like the two letters
i+j, so ignorant < ijspret < illusoir. Most encyclopedias use the school
alphabet, so Xenophobia < IJspret < Yggdrasil. The PTT sort on ij = y, so
Wijchen < Wymbritseradeel < Wijngaarden. They have a very good reason for
this: before standardization settled on ij, many Dutch family names had
already fixed themselves on y; only different branches could have different
spellings. So we have families De Bruyn next to families De Bruijn.
Usually, you don't know which of the two is used officially; it is not even
unheard of that a bearer of such a name doesn't know it themself unless
they look it up in their passport or driver's licence.
My personal conclusion is that in international alphabet standardization
attempts the best approach is not to try to accommodate Dutch ij and to let
the Dutch sort it out themselves. If a slot is to be assigned for Dutch
ij, it should be clear that this is not y with two dots on top. The lower
case representation is the same as that of i followed by j, and the upper
case representation that of I followed by J. If the French do use y with
dieresis, then it is only confusing to suggest that the same slot could be
used for a very different Dutch item.
--
Lambert Meertens
...!{seismo,okstate,garfield,decvax,philabs}!lambert@mcvax.UUCP
CWI (Centre for Mathematics and Computer Science), Amsterdamlambert@boring.uucp (Lambert Meertens) (02/18/86)
In article <6775@boring.UUCP> lambert@boring.UUCP (I) wrote: > (Although it is the case that Spanish rr and ll are sorted as single > letters, but are not assigned positions in any character code proposal that > I have heard of). As a kind reader points out to me: + I think you are mistaken when you say that "rr" is sorted as a single + letter in Spanish. Although "ch" and "ll" do sort as single letters, + "rr" does not (even though it is considered to be a separate letter). + Perhaps this is because no Spanish words start with it. -- Lambert Meertens ...!{seismo,okstate,garfield,decvax,philabs}!lambert@mcvax.UUCP CWI (Centre for Mathematics and Computer Science), Amsterdam
ecl@mtgzy.UUCP (e.c.leeper) (02/25/86)
> + I think you are mistaken when you say that "rr" is sorted as a single > + letter in Spanish. Although "ch" and "ll" do sort as single letters, > + "rr" does not (even though it is considered to be a separate letter). > + Perhaps this is because no Spanish words start with it. This is the first I heard that "rr" isn't considered a single letter. Even if it doesn't start any words, does "perro" come before or after "peruana"? It's before if "rr" is two letters, after if one. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl (or ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl)