[net.nlang] Harbors and harbours

colonel@sunybcs.UUCP (Col. G. L. Sicherman) (01/27/86)

> > "Harbour" is generally so spelled.  However, _The_Globe_and_Mail_ ("Canada's
> > National Newspaper") insists on U.S. spellings to the extent that it always
> > gives "Harbourfront" (a lakeshore development in Toronto) as "Harborfront",
> > even though it is a proper name.

In Buffalo, which lies squarely (if uneasily) on the American side of the
border, there's a new street called "Harbour Pointe." When I address mail
there, I make a point of omitting the extraneous u and e.


	"What's that you're watching, Tommy?"
	"Super-heroes, Captain Buffalo!  Wanna watch with me?"
	"Tommy, I don't WATCH super-heroes--"
	"Mud-maaaaan!  Mud-maaaaan!"
	"Wait a minute!  What is this?"
	"Mudman, he's the TOPS!  Makes monkeys out of COPS!  Mud-maaaan! ..."
	"Tommy, you shouldn't be watching this!"
	"Awww, Captain Buffalo!  This is GREAT!"
	"He can't be HURT 'cause he's made of DIRT! Mud-man! MUD-Man!
		MUD-MAAAAAN!"
-- 
Col. G. L. Sicherman
UU: ...{rocksvax|decvax}!sunybcs!colonel
CS: colonel@buffalo-cs
BI: csdsicher@sunyabva

rpt@warwick.UUCP (02/04/86)

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In article <2788@sunybcs.UUCP> colonel@sunybcs.UUCP writes:
>In Buffalo, which lies squarely (if uneasily) on the American side of the
>border, there's a new street called "Harbour Pointe." When I address mail
>there, I make a point of omitting the extraneous u and e.

Once again I'm going to flame you Yanks for your misspellings. Even if we
forget that harbour is the correct spelling it is particularly annoying
that you misspell proper names. If a street is called "Harbour Pointe" then
it is called "Harbour Pointe". What about Fenix, Arizona? In fact I would go
as far as to suggest that Germany should be called Deutschland (sp?) .
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
        ...!mcvax!ukc!warwick!rpt

andersa@kuling.UUCP (02/08/86)

In article <395@snow.warwick.UUCP> rpt@warwick.UUCP (Richard Tomlinson) writes:
>Once again I'm going to flame you Yanks for your misspellings. Even if we
>forget that harbour is the correct spelling it is particularly annoying
>that you misspell proper names. If a street is called "Harbour Pointe" then
>it is called "Harbour Pointe". What about Fenix, Arizona? In fact I would go
>as far as to suggest that Germany should be called Deutschland (sp?) .

I think I would agree that Harbour Pointe should be spelled that way,
but there is a difference between misspelling the name because of its
relationship to common words, and "translating" foreign names. What
about the following?

- K/obenhavn (Da), K"openhamn (Sw), Copenhagen (Eng)
- Helsing/or (Da), Elsinor (Eng)
- Stockholm (Sw, Eng), Estockolmo (sp? Sp), Tukholma (Fi)
- G"oteborg (Sw), Gothenburg (Eng)
- Moskva (translit. Ru), Moscow (Eng)
- Svalbard (No), Spitzbergen (Eng)
- Chung Kuo (Chi), China (Eng)

...and many others, of course. Bye the way, how should Cambodja/Campuchea
be spelled this year?
-- 
Anders Andersson, Dept. of Computer Systems, Uppsala University, Sweden
Phone: +46 18 183170
UUCP: andersa@kuling.UUCP (...!{seismo,mcvax}!enea!kuling!andersa)

net@tub.UUCP (02/10/86)

> I think I would agree that Harbour Pointe should be spelled that way,
> but there is a difference between misspelling the name because of its
> relationship to common words, and "translating" foreign names. What
> about the following?
> 
> - K/obenhavn (Da), K"openhamn (Sw), Copenhagen (Eng)
> - Helsing/or (Da), Elsinor (Eng)
> - Stockholm (Sw, Eng), Estockolmo (sp? Sp), Tukholma (Fi)
> [...]

A related problem is that in some countries several official languages
co-exist due to certain political, historical, or geographical
circumstances.  In Europe, the most prominent example for a
multi-lingual country is Switzerland, which has four official languages
(french, german, italian, and raeto-romanic(sp?)).  In such countries,
place names are often spelled differently in the different languages.
Examples:

   Finland (swedish + finnish)
      Abo (swedish, the `A' with a circle above)  == Turku (finnish)
      Helsingfors (swedish)                       == Helsinki (finnish)

   Belgium (flemish + wallonian(?))
      Brussel (flemish)                           == Bruxelles (wallonian)

   Ireland (gaelic + english)
      Baile Atha Cliath (gaelic)                  == Dublin (english)
      Corcaigh (gaelic)                           == Cork (english)
      Luimneach (gaelic)                          == Limerick (english)

   Israel (hebrew + arabic)
      Yerushalayim (hebrew (== Jerusalem))        == El-Quds (arabic)


The actual spelling of a foreign place name also depends on how the name
is translated or "transcribed".
Generally, two different methods are used to transcribe foreign names
(correct me if I'm wrong).  The name is either transliterated, that is,
transcribed on the basis of single letters or symbols; the advantage of
this method is that the transliteration can easily be reversed in order
to obtain the original name.  However, it is more common to perform a
transcription on a phonetic basis; the advantage is that the
pronunciation of the resulting word is similar to that of the original
name.  I have found two examples:

Transliteration      Phonetic transcription
  Rankun               Rangoon          (german Rangun)
  Chongqing            Ch'ungch'ing     (german Tschungking)


> ...and many others, of course. Bye the way, how should Cambodja/Campuchea
> be spelled this year?

The official name of Cambodia/Campuchea is `Ravax Samaki Songkruos
Cheat Kampuchea' (Democratic Peoples Republic of Kampuchea).  Thus, I
think Campuchea is acceptable.  However, the Oxford Dictionary of
Concurrent English mentions Cambodia, but not Campuchea.  So perhaps we
should consult the ultimate authority, that is, quiz(6)?  `quiz asian
capital' accepts both "Cambodia" and "Khmer".

--
Oliver Laumann            net@DB0TUI6.BITNET            net@tub.UUCP

rjw@ptsfc.UUCP (Rod Williams) (02/13/86)

>   Ireland (gaelic + english)
>      Baile Atha Cliath (gaelic)                  == Dublin (english)
>      Corcaigh (gaelic)                           == Cork (english)
>      Luimneach (gaelic)                          == Limerick (english)

 Those of you wondering how Baile Atha Cliath came to be Dublin
 should know that Dublin is the anglicized version of the gaelic
 'Dubh Linn' (approximately pronounced 'dhuv ling', meaning black
 pool. The gaelic version is no longer in use).

 If my memory serves me, Baile Atha Cliath (usually pronounced
 rather indistinctly as "balyawclee'uh", meaning the town of the
 ford of the hurdles) was the gaelic version of the Viking name
 for the city (most of the major coastal towns in Ireland were
 founded by the Danes). When the Danes were driven out of Ireland
 in 1014 (by the heroic High King Brian Boru at the Battle of
 Clontarf), the city was renamed Dubh Linn (or maybe I got it
 backwards :-)). In any case, the black pool and the ford of the
 hurdles seem to have gone along with the Danes (:-)).

 Side note: Ironically, though now living 6,000 miles away from my
            home town of Dublin (Ireland), I'm working about two
            miles away from Dublin (California). There are no black
            pools here either, but plenty of Fords (|-P)
-- 

 rod williams | {ihnp4,dual}!ptsfa!ptsfc!rjw
 -------------------------------------------
 pacific bell |  san ramon  |  california

suze@terak.UUCP (Suzanne Barnett) (02/20/86)

> In article <395@snow.warwick.UUCP> rpt@warwick.UUCP (Richard Tomlinson) writes:
> >Once again I'm going to flame you Yanks for your misspellings. Even if we
> >as far as to suggest that Germany should be called Deutschland (sp?) .
> - K/obenhavn (Da), K"openhamn (Sw), Copenhagen (Eng)
> - Helsing/or (Da), Elsinor (Eng)
> - Stockholm (Sw, Eng), Estockolmo (sp? Sp), Tukholma (Fi)
> - G"oteborg (Sw), Gothenburg (Eng)
> - Moskva (translit. Ru), Moscow (Eng)
> - Svalbard (No), Spitzbergen (Eng)
> - Chung Kuo (Chi), China (Eng)
> 
> ...and many others, of course. Bye the way, how should Cambodja/Campuchea
> be spelled this year?
> -- 
> Anders Andersson, Dept. of Computer Systems, Uppsala University, Sweden
I don't think the spelling is as important as the
pronunciation (particularly when we're considering translating
from completely different "alphabets" such as Chinese and
Russian. In general, a phoenetic spelling of a foreign place
name (as pronounced by the natives) should suffice. Though I
agree that an American or English tourist traveling in Deutchland
might never find their way from a Deutch map unless they knew
that Koln is the same as Cologne, Munchen is the same as Munich, etc.
But, in all of these, notice that the English/American pronunciation
is vastly different from the Deutch pronunciation.

How would you like it if someone deliberately mispronounced
your name and seemed to insist that they, not you, were
correct?
-- 
Suzanne Barnett-Scott
uucp:	 ...{decvax,ihnp4,noao,savax,seismo}!terak!suze

CalComp/Sanders Display Products Division
14151 N 76th Street, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
(602) 998-4800

tjsmedley@watmum.UUCP (Trevor J. Smedley) (02/25/86)

In article <1047@terak.UUCP> suze@terak.UUCP writes:
> Though I
>agree that an American or English tourist traveling in Deutchland
>might never find their way from a Deutch map unless they knew
>that Koln is the same as Cologne, Munchen is the same as Munich, etc.
>But, in all of these, notice that the English/American pronunciation
>is vastly different from the Deutch pronunciation.

The problem is, that if you speak only English/American, you probably
cannot pronounce Koln (actually Koeln) or Munchen (actually Muenchen)
or even Deutchland (actually Deutschland) correctly. You are more
likely to be understood if you say Cologne, Munich, or Germany. 

>How would you like it if someone deliberately mispronounced
>your name and seemed to insist that they, not you, were
>correct?

Here I agree. Hopefully people will understand if you cannot pronounce
their language correctly, but you certainly should not try to insist
that you are right, and they are wrong (Do people actually do this :-)


Trevor J. Smedley                    University of Waterloo

{decvax,allegra,ihnp4,utzoo}!watmum!tjsmedley

andersa@kuling.UUCP (Anders Andersson) (02/25/86)

In article <1047@terak.UUCP> suze@terak.UUCP writes:
>> - K/obenhavn (Da), K"openhamn (Sw), Copenhagen (Eng)
>> - Helsing/or (Da), Elsinor (Eng)
>> - Stockholm (Sw, Eng), Estockolmo (sp? Sp), Tukholma (Fi)
>> - G"oteborg (Sw), Gothenburg (Eng)
>> - Moskva (translit. Ru), Moscow (Eng)
>> - Svalbard (No), Spitzbergen (Eng)
>> - Chung Kuo (Chi), China (Eng)

>I don't think the spelling is as important as the
>pronunciation (particularly when we're considering translating
>from completely different "alphabets" such as Chinese and
>Russian. In general, a phoenetic spelling of a foreign place
>name (as pronounced by the natives) should suffice. Though I

Phonetic spelling is a nice idea, but would it solve any problems?
The rules for spelling a word phonetically vary from language to
language, and written communication would be even more difficult to
handle. I don't really know how you would spell our names, but what
would you think about me spelling your places Ajdaheu, Njojokk and
Reud Ajlend? Or did I misunderstand your suggestion?

After all, what's the difference between a word and a name, that says
we should translate the former but not the latter?

>How would you like it if someone deliberately mispronounced
>your name and seemed to insist that they, not you, were
>correct?

As long as we want the meaning of "correct" to be somewhat objective,
I don't think this is a problem. If the origin of a name is agreed
upon, it seems clear to me that the originator is the one to tell
you how it should be pronounced.

It might be difficult or even impossible for a foreigner to pronounce
a certain name properly, but then I'll accept whatever soundalike he
comes up with, of course, as long as his intent is not to *learn* my
language, but merely to communicate with me.
-- 
Anders Andersson, Dept. of Computer Systems, Uppsala University, Sweden
Phone: +46 18 183170
UUCP: andersa@kuling.UUCP (...!{seismo,mcvax}!enea!kuling!andersa)

john@cisden.UUCP (02/26/86)

In article <1047@terak.UUCP> suze@terak.UUCP (Suzanne Barnett) writes:
>	In general, a phoenetic spelling of a foreign place
>name (as pronounced by the natives) should suffice. Though I
>agree that an American or English tourist traveling in Deutchland
>might never find their way from a Deutch map unless they knew
>that Koln is the same as Cologne, Munchen is the same as Munich, etc.
>But, in all of these, notice that the English/American pronunciation
>is vastly different from the Deutch pronunciation.

I think I disagree.  It's entirely natural (and not a bit wrong) to have
different words in different languages referring to the same thing.  That's
much of what languages are, after all. 

Munich and Cologne are things that have words attached to them.  Just 
because they're (now) in Germany, why should we have to pronounce them the
way Germans do?  (Which Germans?  And what if France takes Cologne again,
do we then have to revise all our books and maps?)  How many Americans
can pronounce "Koeln" and "Muenchen", anyway?  (Besides, you'll notice that
"Muenchen" and "Koeln" are a lot further from the *real* names of those
cities -- Monacum and Colonia -- than "Munich" and "Cologne" are. (-: )
And how would you propose we spell those words -- we don't have a way to
represent either vowel or that voiceless fricative in English.

Should Spanish speakers really have to learn to say "The United States"
instead of "los Estados Unidos"?  Should Americans be forced to learn to
gurgle when they say "France"?  Can you say "Madrid" like a Spaniard?  Do
we all need to learn to speak on multiple pitches before we can mention
Bangkok or Shanghai?

>How would you like it if someone deliberately mispronounced
>your name and seemed to insist that they, not you, were
>correct?

The question's not really one of mispronouncing or being Correct, but of
deciding which language you're speaking.  In Latin I say "Anglia", in
English "England", in French "Angleterre", and so on.  An Englishman would
have to be pretty silly to get insulted at that.
-- 
				Peace and Good!,
				      Fr. John Woolley
"Compared to what I have seen, all that I have written is straw." -- St. Thomas

ingrid@pilchuck.UUCP (03/06/86)

> >How would you like it if someone deliberately mispronounced
> >your name and seemed to insist that they, not you, were
> >correct?
> 
> As long as we want the meaning of "correct" to be somewhat objective,
> I don't think this is a problem. If the origin of a name is agreed
> upon, it seems clear to me that the originator is the one to tell
> you how it should be pronounced.
> 
> -- 
> Anders Andersson, Dept. of Computer Systems, Uppsala University, Sweden

Bravo for your words! Try going through childhood in America, with a 
"weird" name like Ingrid Tenggren.....;-) I think in the long run, it
had the effect of making me fiercely proud of my heritage....