normb@tekred.UUCP (Norm Babcock ) (09/15/84)
When I first started to fly, and reading all the aircraft oriented mags, one reoccuring theme kept popping up: If, during takeoff, you experienced engine failure, the absolutely worst thing you could attempt to do was turn back to the runway. The reason usually given is that the stall-spin monster would get you every time. My question for the net is, is this always true, or does it depend on the type a/c? I fly C-150/152s most of the time. Depending on the airport, I usually am at 500-800 feet AGL by the time I hit the end of the runway. Is there a good reason why I can't establish glide (which I'd do regardless of where I was going to land), turn 180, glide alongside the runway, and turn a real short final when I'm 50-100 AGL? If I'm beyond the end of the runway at 1000 AGL, but have not turned-out, can't I essentially do the same thing? Wouldn't a downwind landing be preferable to hitting a solid unyielding object off-field? Has anyone tried this? Or known anyone who made it or failed? My instructor has pulled power on downwind, and that was no sweat. One last observation: if you do try it, and it doesn't work out, you're a lot closer to the "equipment" than you would be in a farmers barn.
wolit@rabbit.UUCP (Jan Wolitzky) (09/15/84)
There's a world of difference between losing an engine at 500 - 800 feet on takeoff and having your instructor pull the throttle on downwind. In the latter situation you're probably 1000 feet up, going in the right direction for a normal approach, and are probably in stabilized, straight-and-level flight at or (more likely) well above the normal approach speed. In an engine failure on takeoff, you're in a nose-high attitude, your airspeed and altitude are dropping, in short, the situation is deteriorating rapidly and you've got to do something RIGHT NOW. The first, last, and always rule is FLY THE PLANE. By the time you've realized what's happening, gotten a normal glide established, gone through the restart drill, and looked around for a good place to land, there's no way you'll have enough altitude to turn and make the runway. There's nothing that says you can't move a little to avoid that building straight ahead (especially to land in the cleared field to the side of it), but you're always better off going in under control rather than spinning in on your nose. Remember too that the stall speed in a 60-degree bank is twice that of level flight, and that any low-altitude 180 that you want to finish before hitting the ground is going to be very steep. Jan Wolitzky, AT&T Bell Labs, Murray Hill, NJ
notes@harpo.UUCP (09/17/84)
With sailplanes, once you have twoo hundred feet above the ground it is OK to turn back. I suspect with a 150 you would want another 100 or 200 feet in height. Irv McNair .
marcum@rhino.UUCP (Alan M. Marcum) (09/17/84)
An exercise to help determine a "safe" altitude for YOU to turn
back in YOUR plane:
Climb up to altitude. Align yourself with a road, railroad, or
some other reasonably straight landmark. This landmark will
simulate the position of the runway.
Establish the plane in a normal climb-out attitude. At some
point, pull the power, and begin your turn back to "the runway"
as though you'd had an engine failure. Determine how much
altitude you'll lose in the 180. Also notice how much lateral
distance you move from your "runway" landmark in the maneuver!
If you're looking for a downwind landing, determine how much more
altitude you'll lose getting lined up with the runway. If you
want an upwind landing, turn the 180 into a pattern (albeit a
short one, prehaps). This will give you some idea of the best
you MIGHT expect.
After this exercise, consider adding enough additional altitude
to include delays for surprise (WHAT?!? Where's my engine?!?),
stress-induced imperfect technique (gliding at Vglide+5, eg.),
wind, etc.
I'd be interested in the various numbers people find. Mail your
results of this simulation to me; I'll summarize to the net.
Please include the type airplane, your approximate total hours,
and what ticket you hold.
--
Alan M. Marcum Fortune Systems, Redwood City, California
...!{ihnp4, ucbvax!amd, hpda, sri-unix, harpo}!fortune!rhino!marcumron@BRL-TGR.ARPA (09/19/84)
From: Ron Natalie <ron@BRL-TGR.ARPA> For powered airplanes I was told...never turn at all under 400 feet and you can't make a 180 under 700 feet (This is on initial climb). -Ron The Cessna 150 is essentially a glider. The fan up front is to keep the pilot cool...'cause watch him sweat when it stops.
6912ar04@sjuvax.UUCP (rowley) (09/19/84)
the "push-vs-pull" controversy has a simple resolution. As a member of CAP I have had the opportunity to see what an unforgiving aircraft a Cessna "mixmaster"really is.I saw the result last June when a novice lost control,suffering fatal injuries.
Also,he smeared 4 parked planes.
Newsgroups: net.aviation
Subject: Re: Never Turn Back
References: <2604@harpo.UUCP>
the "push-vs-pull" controversy has a simple resolution. As a member of CAP I have had the opportunity to see what an unforgiving aircraft a Cessna "mixmaster"really is.I saw the result last June when a novice lost control,suffering fatal injuries.
Also,he smeared 4 parked planes.
address a. rowley,6912ar04,!sjuvax!
w4432jrm@hogpc.UUCP (J.MASSI) (09/20/84)
A composite follow-up: }3. Pick a place to put it down - assume that the engine won't } start again. Turning back to the runway is an acceptable } choice if altitude is CLEARLY ADEQUATE. } }In gliders, the analogous situation is a towrope break, particularly }during the early part of the tow, or any problem that affects the }towplane. In any situation where the towpilot has a loss of power }or any other engine problem, they will wave the glider off, and then }drop the rope, since the glider is always better equiped to deal with }the emergency than the power plane. }With sailplanes, once you have twoo hundred feet above }the ground it is OK to turn back. I suspect with a 150 you }would want another 100 or 200 feet in height. Rule number 3, "Pick a place to put it down...Turning back ...is an acceptable choice if altitude is CLEARLY ADEQUATE," is appropriate for gliders as well as power planes. Although some texts on glider training imply that 200 feet is a magic number, the truth is, like for so many questions related to flying, "IT DEPENDS." Yes, under most conditions a pilot should not consider turning back to the runway if below 200 feet. There are circumstances under which it is unsafe to turn back even though over 200 feet. Wind speed and direction, rate of climb of towplane and glider before the rope break or release (i.e. altiude and distance from airport), airspeed, and other factors may dictate an off-field landing even though 200 feet have been gained. It is possible, though less likely, under SOME conditions to safely return to the airport from less than 200 feet. It all depends upon the situation. Don't be blinded by a magic number, FLY THE AIRPLANE! I feel that it is a good idea to simulate the conditions of an engine failure on departure at altitude, but remember again that the altitude loss experienced at altitude will not be a magic number. It should be used only as a guide. Close to the ground things do not always work out as they do at altitude. A pilot a low altitude has to deal with wind gradient, turbulence from trees, buildings, and the nerves that come from a real emergency. I too have experienced an actual tow emergency. At about 200 feet (I don't know the exact number, I was too busy to worry about the altimeter) I experienced a premature release due to turbulence. Judgement told me I could return to the airport and my passenger and I did so safely. It was considerably more exciting than the simulated (though very real) rope breaks I practiced with my instructor. Joe Massi, Comm. Glider ASEL, AIGI
danny@alice.UUCP () (09/21/84)
Irv McNair tells us that it's safe for a sailplane to turn back to the runway at 200' agl but that a Cessna 150 needs "100 or 200 feet more." Cessna 150 pilots might want to practice power-off 180's a few thousand feet up and observe altitude loss before taking McNair's advice upon losing power at 300-400' agl. (And note that you actually need to turn thru more than 180 deg to get back to runway.) Dan Kahn Bell Communications Research Murray Hill, NJ
normb@tekred.UUCP (Norm Babcock ) (09/22/84)
It seems that my question re engine failure on take-off generated a lot of interest, which is good if some pilots are asking themselves "Yea, what would I do, in my plane...". I got good advice from the net and mail. I plan (when the wx clears a little) to do lost power drills at 4-5000 feet, and note the altitude loss during various turn profiles. I'll post the results. There was brief discussion on flipping during stalling turns, (turning stalls?). Most a/c will flip opposite to the turn if you slip, because the outboard wing stalls first. A skid will produce inboard wing stall, dropping the inboard wing and making for some very steep bank attitudes. Of the two, skidding in a turn at low altitude is probably the most dangerous, for the following reason: if the outboard wing stalls, the a/c will have a tendency to roll level,providing more time to do something. If the inboard wing drops, it takes quick feet to prevent the perfect spin entry. Most good CFIs and old-time pilots say that if you do nothing else, keep the ball centered at all times. If some of you plan to mess around, I'd be interested in your results. As one person pointed out, it's a good excuse to go flying without having to decide on a destination. (Does this make us test pilots?) Norm
Richard.Wallace%CMU-RI-ROVER@sri-unix.UUCP (09/27/84)
Yesterday my instructor (dt50@CMUA) and I successfully completed a turn-back to the departure runway with a simulated engine failure in a C-152. We did a short-field take-off in order to climb to about 500 ft. AGL by the time we reached the departure end of the runway. At that point, we cut the power and executed a steep (45-50 degrees) turn to the left. As we (much to my surprise) came back in line with the runway we banked right to complete the teardrop-shaped turn. We intercepted the runway mid-field and landed really fast with something like a 15 kt. tailwind. The turn-back was done with no other traffic in the pattern. I wouldn't have tried it on my own, having been taught by the same instructor that if the engine quits on takeoff, land straight ahead no matter what. Later, he said that if it had been an actual engine failure he would have landed straight ahead, too. R/W
lmiller@ucla-cs.UUCP (10/08/84)
A number of years ago in a 1-26 at El Mirage, in the California desert, I also experienced a low altitude release due to turbulence. At about 400', just after making a turn to cross wind, the rope released. It was very bumpy, with a stiff headwind. Turning back to the runway I now had a tail wind, and was perfectly lined up with the runway. But, surprise!, there was no way I was going to make it back to the airport! Fortunately, there's a dirt road that extends out from the runway, and I landed, uneventfully, on that. The tow plane also landed on the road, verified that all was o.k., and radioed for a trailer. Shortly we were back on the airport, with the glider taken apart and driven in. The moral, if there is one, is that even turning back to the runway doesn't guarantee an on-airport landing. L. Miller UCLA Computer Science Dept.