wanttaja@ssc-vax.UUCP (Ronald J Wanttaja) (11/01/84)
<"Cessna 09 Tango, cleared to land, check gear down"> <"Roger, gear down and welded..."> Since it has been pretty quiet on net.aviation, I'm throwing out a question to y'all. Let's take, for instance, the Sidewinder Air-to-Air missile, or its Russkie version, the Atoll. How effective are these against a non-turbine powered aircraft? Apparently, the ground launched anti-aircraft missiles are pretty non-discriminatory, i.e., they'll take off after any heat source. I would suspect, however, that the air launched kind have various anti-spoofing features that may cut down on their effectiveness against cooler targets. Maybe they wouldn't be so cool... but the major heat source, the cylinders, is shielded by the cowling, and in aircraft like the P-51, further shielded by the water cooling jacket. To set the input parameters, I would state two conditions: 1. Sidewinder/Atoll against P-51 (after all, there is one Latin American country that still operates F-51s) 2. Sidewinder/Atoll against Cessna 172 (I may want to take an aerial tour of Kamchatka Peninsula some day) Please state if you are discussing the "old" Sidewinder or the "All Aspect" missile. Lets get some new discussion going here! I'm tired of "Re:re:re:re B-1 vs. B-52!" Ronald J. Wanttaja, Lieutenant Queens own Kamikazi Highlanders (ssc-vax!wanttaja) Flames will be dealt with by Redeye/SA-7. Be warned.
ralph@inuxc.UUCP (Ralph Keyser) (11/07/84)
I'm not going to claim to be an expert on heat seeking missiles
(whoosh! there goes another one!), but my guess would be that
Sidewinders would be just about worthless against a 172 or P-51 in
the "out of the box" configuration. The only thing that's going to
get hot enough to present a good target is the exhaust stack (or
stacks if you're a Mustang), and heat seeking missiles (especially
the newer ones) are trained to target *only* on things that look
like jet exhausts. The designers work really hard to get them to
ignore flares, the sun, 5 alarm chili, etc. They would probably tend
to ignore piston engine exhausts as well.
Older heat seekers, however, were not nearly as smart, and one
of them just might present a problem as you are cruising over Kamchatka
in your Mustang. I don't think the Cessna puts out enough of a signature
for even older Atolls.
Not to worry, they'll just drop their gear and flaps so they can
go slow enough and take pot shots at you with the cannon instead.
Pleasant Flying!
Ralph Keyserwanttaja@ssc-vax.UUCP (Ronald J Wanttaja) (11/19/84)
<"Cessna 09 Tango, cleared to land, check gear down"> <"Roger, gear down and welded..."> I'm resubmitting this article, as we have had some difficulty getting news in and out. My apologies for resubmittal if you all were just ignoring it :-). Since it has been pretty quiet on net.aviation, I'm throwing out a question to y'all. Let's take, for instance, the Sidewinder Air-to-Air missile, or its Russkie version, the Atoll. How effective are these against a non-turbine powered aircraft? Apparently, the ground launched anti-aircraft missiles are pretty non-discriminatory, i.e., they'll take off after any heat source. I would suspect, however, that the air launched kind have various anti-spoofing features that may cut down on their effectiveness against cooler targets. Maybe they wouldn't be so cool... but the major heat source, the cylinders, is shielded by the cowling, and in aircraft like the P-51, further shielded by the water cooling jacket. To set the input parameters, I would state two conditions: 1. Sidewinder/Atoll against P-51 (after all, there is one Latin American country that still operates F-51s) 2. Sidewinder/Atoll against Cessna 172 (I may want to take an aerial tour of Kamchatka Peninsula some day) Lets get some new discussion going here! I'm tired of "Re:Re:Re: B-1 vs B-52!" Ronald J. Wanttaja, Lieutenant Queens own Kamikazi Highlanders (ssc-vax!wanttaja) Flames will be dealt with by Redeye/SA-7. Be warned.
wolit@rabbit.UUCP (Jan Wolitzky) (11/28/84)
If IR-guided missiles were all you had to worry about, I'd guess you'd be pretty safe. Just to be sure, why not bring along a couple of highway flares, and drop them out the window occasionally, to spoof any that do lock onto your exhaust pipe. Unfortunately, you'd also have to contend with 20mm cannon fire, which is harder to trick... For what it's worth, the awful film "The Final Countdown" a few years ago showed an F-14 downing a WWII-vintage Misubishi Zero with a Sidewinder. It was incredible fiction, of course, but the producers got so much cooperation from the US Navy -- it was the most unsubtle recruiting propaganda I've ever seen -- that they probably checked to make sure it was technically accurate. Incidentally, there is also a *NORTH* American country that has plans to use the P-51. (No pun intended -- the plane was originally manufactured by North American Aviation.) Piper Aircraft Co. is trying to sell the idea of a turboprop-powered P-51 to the USAF as a close-support plane. They call it the "Enforcer," but I don't think anyone is taking the idea too seriously -- for one thing, P-51 airframes are incredibly rare, and I would imagine that setting up the tooling to manufacture new one would be too expensive to be competitive with currently-manufactured foreign planes of this type. -- Jan Wolitzky, AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill, NJ; (201) 582-2998
cfiaime@ihnp4.UUCP (Jeff Williams) (11/29/84)
Mention was made of the Piper Enforcer... Indeed, this is based on the North American P-51 as modified by Cavalier. Back in the late 1960's, this small Florida based company modified several P-51D's with Rolls-Royce Dart turbine engines as a possible attack airplane for use in Southeast Asia. The response was, as they say, underwhelming. However, the idea was sound... Enter, in the early 1970's, Piper Aircraft. They bought the rights to the P-51 from Cavalier who had bought the rights from North American in the late 1950's. The first Piper Enforcer was indeed a modified 1944 model P-51D which had been through the Cavalier rebuild program a mere fifteen years before. This particular airframe still exists at the Piper Lakeland plant. Well, Piper has been trying for oh these many years to find a buyer for this machine. Lets face it, the beast will out A-10 an A-10 on everything except the 30mm cannon. The Enforcer carries several 20mm cannons instead. Congress decided that Piper ought to have a chance to prove the airplane, so instructed the Air Force to purchase two of the things for flight test. The Air Force is more interested in high technology jets, so relegates this program to the back burner. The low-key flight test program was finished several months ago with very good results. About the two flight test aircraft. These are new production P-51 airframes built on the old tooling. Piper said that World War II vintage parts were not really in good enough shape to use, so the two new prototypes used over 98% new parts. The engines are Allisons, and the propellers are modified Skyraider units. If a production contract is awarded, new propellers will be used, making the airplane perform even better. Jeff Williams AT&T Bell Laboratories ihnp4!cfiaime