daver@hp-pcd.UUCP (daver) (03/18/85)
When I took my primary training (in a Cessna 150) I was told to look at the end of the runway too, but when I checked out in a taildragger the whole story changed. The taildraggers I have flown have zero forward visibility with all three wheels on the ground - you have to make S-turns when you taxi to get an idea of what's in front of you - so you can't look at the end of the runway because you can't see it. It takes a lot of practice to get used to looking out the side window to see how high you are while still tracking the runway centerline, but it is a learnable skill. Was the instructor an old-timer, by any chance? Dave Rabinowitz hplabs!hp-pcd!daver
brent@phoenix.UUCP (Brent P. Callaghan) (03/19/85)
How do you look at the runway when landing an airplane ?
I was trained to look over the nose as far down the runway
as possible. The idea was to judge height by monitoring
the perspective of the runway. I've found this especially
valuable during night landings without the landing light on.
I've just completed a course of dual instruction to validate
my FAA licence. My instructor/examiner for this course
insisted that as I lift the nose to flare, I should look straight
down at the runway out the side window!
This didn't work for me at all. It was just a meaningless blur.
I got no feeling of depth, and my landings were lousy.
I passed the test by cheating and flicking my eyes right for
a quick peek over the nose when he wasn't looking.
Am I just a Bozo or is this THE way to eyeball the runway ?
--
Made in New Zealand --> Brent Callaghan
AT&T Information Systems, Lincroft, NJ
{ihnp4|ahuta|pegasus}!phoenix!brent
(201) 576-3475cfiaime@ihnp4.UUCP (Jeff Williams) (03/20/85)
> How do you look at the runway when landing an airplane ? >... > I've just completed a course of dual instruction to validate > my FAA licence. My instructor/examiner for this course > insisted that as I lift the nose to flare, I should look straight > down at the runway out the side window! >... > This didn't work for me at all. It was just a meaningless blur. > I got no feeling of depth, and my landings were lousy. > I passed the test by cheating and flicking my eyes right for > a quick peek over the nose when he wasn't looking. >... > Made in New Zealand --> Brent Callaghan A couple of questions here. 1. Do you land the airplane flat (nose wheel touching with the mains or shortly thereafter)? 2. Do you land at a speed greater than 1.1 vs0 (stall speed in landing configuration)? 3. Does your airplane have a lot of nose gear problems? What I teach comes from flying airplanes with (gasp) tail wheels. You can't look over the nose in a Funk, Taylorcraft, Luscombe, Cessna 180/185, or the like. (Maybe you can in a Champ.) The best way to land is to get the nose UP on touchdown. The only way to do that and keep aligned with the runway is to look out the corner of the windshield. Typically I look at about 30 degrees off of the nose of the airplane. You still can look far enough down the runway to judge your height, but you can also get the nose up where it belongs on landing. As an example, go watch a 727 land. It will touch down at about an eight degree deck angle. As a parting shot, you would be shocked at how your landings would improve if you checked out in a tail wheel airplane. Jeff Williams "Resident Accident Prevention Counselor" AT&T Bell Laboratories ihnp4!cfiaime
ron@brl-tgr.ARPA (Ron Natalie <ron>) (03/20/85)
> How do you look at the runway when landing an airplane ? > > I was trained to look over the nose as far down the runway > as possible. The idea was to judge height by monitoring > the perspective of the runway. I've found this especially > valuable during night landings without the landing light on. > > I've just completed a course of dual instruction to validate > my FAA licence. My instructor/examiner for this course > insisted that as I lift the nose to flare, I should look straight > down at the runway out the side window! > > This didn't work for me at all. It was just a meaningless blur. > I got no feeling of depth, and my landings were lousy. > I passed the test by cheating and flicking my eyes right for > a quick peek over the nose when he wasn't looking. > > Am I just a Bozo or is this THE way to eyeball the runway ? > -- > You're right. Looking at the ground underneath the runway is wrong and impossible to do on low wing aircraft. I looked at the wheels (on the C-152 I learned in) the first few times out, I guess it's hard not to, you want to see how far you've got left to go. It just messes you up. You set up round out and flare by looking down the runway, it's pretty much a matter of perspective, I think. Once you flare, you shouldn't need to look at the ground, just keep the plane straight and wait for the wheel(s) to touch. -Ron
kanner@tymix.UUCP (Herb Kanner) (03/21/85)
In article <1075@phoenix.UUCP> brent@phoenix.UUCP (Brent P. Callaghan) writes: >How do you look at the runway when landing an airplane ? > >I was trained to look over the nose as far down the runway >as possible. The idea was to judge height by monitoring >the perspective of the runway. > >I've just completed a course of dual instruction to validate >my FAA licence. My instructor/examiner for this course >insisted that as I lift the nose to flare, I should look straight >down at the runway out the side window! > >This didn't work for me at all. It was just a meaningless blur. Both are wrong, or possibly misunderstood. Looking over the nose will not work in many planes because of a high nose which completely blocks your view. This is 100% true in tail-draggers. The direction to look is slightly to the side, the left side if you are sitting on the left. I'd say about 30 degrees to the left, just enough to clear the nose. My guess is that you are probably doing that anyway, and don't realise it. An interesting point came up when I started working for my instructor certificate (in Cherokees). I had to learn to fly from the right-hand seat. Looking a bit to the left was such an ingrained habit that on my first take-off I had the horrible feeling that my entire view was blocked by this here airplane and that there was no forward visibility whatsoever! It wasn't as bad as my first driving experience in a right-hand drive car, however. I had no trouble with the driving, per se; mostly with the cars coming at me that appeared to be on the wrong side of the road. The interesting phenomenon was that every time I tried to look at the rear view mirror, I look up and to the right, and saw nothing but sky! -- Herb Kanner Tymnet, Inc.
tjj@ssc-vax.UUCP (T J Jardine) (03/21/85)
Brent Callaghan originated the question about viewing the runway during a landing. I agree with Jeff Williams that you need to look out the side window, particularly on tail wheel aircraft. I'd like to add that what I teach is that you need to acquire information from many sources -- staring down the runway over the nose or staring out the window are equally bad techniques. I don't know of an instrument trained pilot who stares at one instrument and stays right side up for very long, so why should a VFR pilot not keep his eyes moving. I think this only supplements what Jeff has said. I would also add that once you've learned how to land a tail dragger, then try a seaplane (such as the Lake Amphibian). Concrete or Tarmac + oleo struts are super soft compared to sitting your fuselage on the water's surface. You learn to touch down very, very gently indeed! Whatever else you may do, remember to keep the pointy end forward and the dirty side down!! Ted Jardine, CFI ASME Instruments -- TJ (with Amazing Grace) The Piper Boeing Artificial Intelligence Center ...uw-beaver!ssc-vax!bcsaic!ted
rick@cadtec.UUCP (Rick Auricchio) (03/22/85)
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Looking out the left window was the way I learned in a C152, but *not*
straight down due to the blur. Try looking at about 11 o'clock, forward
down the runway. Now it doesn't blur and you can *see* (especially since
the nose gets pretty high in C152/C172 aircraft).
In my Mooney 201, I can cheat if I cross the numbers >~65kts because the
deck angle is quite flat; I can peek over the nose or "play the float" till
it settles (esp. with partial flaps [NO! NOT MORE FLAP FLAP!]). Lately,
though, I've been doing more ~full-stall landings. Saves tires, shortens
taxiing, and gives you a better feel for MCA at various weights.
==============================================================================
Opinions expressed have been generated solely by line-noise.
Rick Auricchio Cadtec Corp. 2355 Old Oakland Rd, San Jose CA 95131
{cbosgd,decwrl,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!cadtec!rick N1150G (408) 942-1535
"Mooney pilots like their tail backwards..."normb@tekred.UUCP (Norm Babcock ) (03/23/85)
To add my 2 cents worth, I was taught to monitor the position of the runway relative to the windshield on final. This allows you to determine drift off center-line, how the approach is going, make sure there are no a/c on the runway, etc. It's also (but hard to remember) a good idea to make a quick left/right scan as you're sliding down the wire to make sure someone hasn't taken a short-cut. (It's happened to me twice). Consider that when you're driving, and you come to a curve, you seldom look at the pavement directly in front of you. What you really do is to let your eyes scan from short range to long range, and steer (mentally) where you're going to be. The same thing works during the flare. Let (make) the eyeballs shift from close range to the end of the runway. The height above the tarmac pretty much becomes automatic. My landings improve a bunch when I do this, and works for most any a/c I've flown to date, including floats. A quick sanity check to the side is ok, but I agree that looking at the runway beneath the wheels during the flare is useless. Stormin' Norman, terror of Victor 165. tektronix!tekred!normb
rlr@avsdS.UUCP (Rhode L. Roberts) (03/27/85)
> How do you look at the runway when landing an airplane ? > > I was trained to look over the nose as far down the runway > as possible. The idea was to judge height by monitoring > the perspective of the runway. I've found this especially > valuable during night landings without the landing light on. > > I've just completed a course of dual instruction to validate > my FAA licence. My instructor/examiner for this course > insisted that as I lift the nose to flare, I should look straight > down at the runway out the side window! > > This didn't work for me at all. It was just a meaningless blur. > I got no feeling of depth, and my landings were lousy. > I passed the test by cheating and flicking my eyes right for > a quick peek over the nose when he wasn't looking. > > Am I just a Bozo or is this THE way to eyeball the runway ? > -- > > Made in New Zealand --> Brent Callaghan > AT&T Information Systems, Lincroft, NJ > {ihnp4|ahuta|pegasus}!phoenix!brent > (201) 576-3475 You are right! I was taught to make only one style of landing, day or night. In effect; After getting to the "fence", line the end of the engine cowling up with either the opposite (FAR) end of the runway ( day ), or, line the engine cowling up on the lights at the opposite (FAR) end of the runway ( obviously night ). After getting all of of this lined up, carry just a little bit of power (100/200 rpm or so above idle) and let it settle in. You can prove the logic of this. Next time you are "in position and holding for takeoff" note the nose low attitude of aircraft. Look at the relationship of the engine cowling and the far end of the runway. If you could at that time some how "lift" the nose of the aircraft to align the cowling edge with the far end of the runway, you would be in a perfect landing attitude with the mains touching. That is the (flare) attitude you should always try to be in at landing. If that attitude is "set" just at the threshold for a night landing and "held", you will grease it on every time, same for days. And no more of this "different way to land during the day compared to night". Works all the time every time. R. Roberts Ampex Corporation One of the Signal Companies Redwood City, Ca.
cfiaime@ihnp4.UUCP (Jeff Williams) (04/01/85)
> I was taught to make only one style of landing, day or night. > > In effect; > After getting to the "fence", line the > end of the engine cowling up with either > the opposite (FAR) end of the runway ( day ), > or, line the engine cowling up on the lights > at the opposite (FAR) end of the runway > ( obviously night ). After getting all of > of this lined up, carry just a little bit > of power (100/200 rpm or so above idle) and > let it settle in. > > You can prove the logic of this. Next time you are > "in position and holding for takeoff" note the nose > low attitude of aircraft. Look at the relationship > of the engine cowling and the far end of the runway. > If you could at that time some how "lift" the nose > of the aircraft to align the cowling edge with the > far end of the runway, you would be in a perfect > landing attitude with the mains touching. That is > the (flare) attitude you should always try to be > in at landing. If that attitude is "set" just at > the threshold for a night landing and "held", you > will grease it on every time, same for days. And > no more of this "different way to land during the > day compared to night". May I beg, sir, to disagree. This technique may NOT get the nose high enough in the flare. If you recall, the nose gear may be depressed up to about 75 percent of it's full travel while sitting there on the runway. By using a deck angle of around +5 degrees in the flare, the nose wheel may still contact the ground at the same time as the mains. If the pilot is short, the landing attitude could be very flat with this technique. While teaching landings, my students problems in landing disappear when I get them to get the nose up high enough to block the view of the runway. If you try to keep a part of the runway in sight during flare, you typically will not keep the nose gear off of the runway. The landing may be smooth, but you will eventually cause more wear on the nose gear than if you just go ahead and land like a tail-dragger. Jeff Williams AT&T Bell Laboratories ihnp4!cfiaime
doug@terak.UUCP (Doug Pardee) (04/01/85)
> Look at the relationship > of the engine cowling and the far end of the runway. > If you could at that time some how "lift" the nose > of the aircraft to align the cowling edge with the > far end of the runway, you would be in a perfect > landing attitude with the mains touching. That is > the (flare) attitude you should always try to be > in at landing. Gee, I'd have to lift the tail of my C-120 to get the top of the cowling down below the horizon. The nose on a PA-32 (Cherokee Six/Lance/ Saratoga) is so long that the top of the cowling is well above the horizon in a flare. And twins don't even have cowlings (well, except for the C-336/337 :-) -- Doug Pardee -- Terak Corp. -- !{hao,ihnp4,decvax}!noao!terak!doug
ron@hpfcmt.UUCP (ron) (04/08/85)
Re: Look Where ? Transitioning from sailplanes (landed in level flight attitude well above stall speed) to airplanes (landed nose high at full stall) showed this CFI-G some things about where to look. My summary is this: Use what is available (which depends upon the airplane.) A C-152 has a little short nose which can be seen over even during the flare. A C-182 has a longer nose and a lower seating height so that if you look over the nose in the flare all you will see is cowling and sky. In the 182 case I find that I look down the runway until the nose comes up too far for that and then I use the side windows to confirm that things are going as planned. The time where you can't see down the runway isn't real long but is very important that you have some reference of some kind to ensure that you are getting the desired results. Note also that different pilots do things differently, not always for definable reasons. If you have thought thru all the possible conditions where your technique might get you in trouble and can find no alternate technique which might work better then your technique should be defendable. With more experience (and practice) you will develop more techniques and use the ones that work the best for the situation. (ie Where does the Pitts pilot look to find the ground for landing or otherwise ?) Ron Miller CFI-G H-P Ft. Collins Systems Div. Ft. Collins Colo. At: ... hpfcla!ron-m