dowdy@cepu.UUCP (Dowdy Jackson) (08/12/85)
I am interested in getting my pilot's license , but I need some advice on what
to look for in a flying school and what is a reasonable price to pay for
lessons. Thank you for the help...
Dowdy Jackson
UCLA NPIrlr@avsdS.UUCP (Rhode L. Roberts) (08/16/85)
> I am interested in getting my pilot's license, > but I need some advice on what to look for in a > flying school and what is a reasonable price to > pay for lessons. Thank you for the help... [please excuse the nroff ( spaces savings )] Average price around $2000. Could be as little as $1000 or as much as $5000 for a private pilot license. It all depends on how you WANT to approach it. Some flight schools have highly polished and clean new aircraft with instructors who all wear suit and ties ( $5000 ). Others have a rag wing champ thats seen better days and an instructor in a T shirt. ( $1500 ) Both will probably teach you the ropes equally well. Most instructors who work for a flight school full time and as their only source of income typically want to get you into the craft, start the clock, get you back in as close to an hour as posible so they can get the next stu- dent on the clock. They really need to build the hours for themselves so they can quit the school and get a cor- porate flying job. No REAL intrest in what you are learning. There are a few rare good ones out there work- ing at the schools. ( my opinion ) The instructor who has a regular job and teaches in his/her spare time is ususally intrested in seeing that YOU get all of the REAL information DIGESTED. And also, that you pass the written with high marks and pass the flight exam with no fear ( hee hee ) and good comments from the examiner. (There may be sombody at your place of work who is an instructor, ask around, they usually don't charge as much either as they get their rewards from seeing you take to the sky). Go shopping, take a few demo rides from different schools, go to the aviation book store at the airport and browse through the books, mabey buy a Jeppesen Private Pilot Ground School book ( around $30 ). Talk to pilots at the airport, they don't bite. Build some knowledge to ask questions with, so that when you talk to an instruc- tor you get more out of it ( cause it get's expensive ). Find a friend who might want to learn with you ( the gem- ini system ). This is good for brainstorming and such, also when you are learning the skills while in the air, if your friend is in the back seat while your sweating it out at the controls, later when you talk about it your friend will have a real clear picture of all the events that happend ( because he/she was not sweating ). This is good for [de-briefing] after the flight. On the next flight lesson your friend gets to GRIP the controls and you take the back seat to get an overview. It's amazing how much more you comprehend when your not under THAT pressure. ( Not to mention when you go for your instru- ment and your under the gun AND the hood ). I learned to solo at the cheapest flight school I could find, renting the cheapest aircrift they had using a Com- mercial Flight Instructor who is a personal friend. This cost a whopping $20 an hour for 8 hours. I then put $1500 down on a cherokee 140 and shopped around for good financing and paid $175 a month for 5 years. The In- structor gave me lessons for no charge and I let him use the aircraft for his own PERSONAL flights and he replaced the gas. Maintinace runs about $400 year, insurance $500 year, tie-down (parking) runs about $50 a month ( in the San Francisco area ). It drinks about 8 gallons of fuel an hour at approx. $2 per gal. I paid $10,000 for the plane, 6 years ago, got my private and instrument ticket in it, have flown over 700 hours in it all over the 48 states, and could sell it today for around $10,000. Add it all up and devide it by the hours flown to get the cost of flying for an hour, then compare that to the cost per hour of renting. The nicest part about it is that I KNOW the mechanical condition of the entire plane, I KNOW it's there WHEN I want it, and I KNOW that somebody didn't leave it out of gas, and oil, leave candy bar wrappers all over the floor and cigarette butts in the ash trays ( or ground into the carpet ), or didn't return on time leaving ME standing around waiting. Most important of all, have fun. R.L. Roberts ...{ucbvax}!atd!rlr@avsdS Ampex Corporation (One of the Signal Companies) Audio Video Systems Division Redwood City, Calif.
jpg@sdchema.UUCP (Jerry Greenberg) (08/17/85)
I will confess why despite my interest in aviation I have'nt
taken lessons. It can be summed up in two words: "stall" and "spin".
Jerry Greenbergjeq@laidbak.UUCP (Jonathan E. Quist) (08/20/85)
In article <107@avsdS.UUCP> rlr@avsdS.UUCP (Rhode L. Roberts) writes: > Some flight schools have highly polished and clean new > aircraft with instructors who all wear suit and ties ( > $5000 ). > > Others have a rag wing champ thats seen better days and > an instructor in a T shirt. ( $1500 ) > > Both will probably teach you the ropes equally well. > > Most instructors who work for a flight school full time > and as their only source of income typically want to get > you into the craft, start the clock, get you back in as > close to an hour as posible so they can get the next stu- > dent on the clock. They really need to build the hours > for themselves so they can quit the school and get a cor- > porate flying job. No REAL intrest in what you are > learning. There are a few rare good ones out there work- > ing at the schools. ( my opinion ) > > The instructor who has a regular job and teaches in > his/her spare time is ususally intrested in seeing that > YOU get all of the REAL information DIGESTED. And also, > that you pass the written with high marks and pass the > flight exam with no fear ( hee hee ) and good comments > from the examiner. (There may be sombody at your place > of work who is an instructor, ask around, they usually > don't charge as much either as they get their rewards > from seeing you take to the sky). (sorry for the length of quotation, but I want to maintain context) I'd like to add a 3rd type of instructor to the list, although they're rare. My first instructor was a career CFI. To be distinguished from someone works as a fulltime CFI. Old Fred learned to fly his first Stearman before he learned to drive his first Model A Ford. Flew Navy during WWII, freight and airlines after, then looked for something more rewarding, namely teaching flying. His rates are higher than the local FBO's, but less than the big flight schools, and he is a natural teacher. After nearly two years of without flying, I started up again at a local flight school. After getting past being a little rusty, I started getting all sorts of surprised ``Where'd you learn that?'' from various instructors who couldn't beleive a low-time student who hadn't flown in 2 years could fly so well. Instructors like this are hard to come by, but if you can find one, it's worth your while. When I stopped lessons with Fred (I moved ), I asked him how to find another instructor. ``Look for someone with a few grey hairs.'' This isn't an absolute rule, but the point is valid: It's hard to beat experience. At the school where I've been flying recently, most of the instructors are quite young. They are all very competent, and each of those I have flown with are outstanding in various phases of flight training, but without exception I have been able to show them one or two things they didn't know because I had benefitted from Fred's vast experience. (When I last flew with him, he had nearly 12,000 hours logged as a CFI, plus all his military and commercial time.) Currently, I'm taking a month off. (The place I've been flying is one of the $5000 variety.) Next month, when my bank balance recovers a bit, I'm spending some time with an oldtimer with a 1948 Cessna 140 (a 90 horsepower taildragger). $20 an hour for the plane, $15 for the instructor, and more seat-of-the-pants flying than I've seen in the past six months. But, as Rhode has said, have fun. All the best, Jonathan E. Quist
wanttaja@ssc-vax.UUCP (Ronald J Wanttaja) (08/21/85)
> > I will confess why despite my interest in aviation I have'nt > taken lessons. It can be summed up in two words: "stall" and "spin". > > No doubt you don't drive either, because of "Flat tire" and "Drunk driver"... Ron Wanttaja (ssc-vax!wanttaja) "Itazuki tower, this is Air Force Nine-Oh-One..."
rlr@avsdT.BERKNET (Rhode L. Roberts) (08/21/85)
> > I will confess why despite my interest in aviation I have'nt > taken lessons. It can be summed up in two words: "stall" and "spin". > > > Jerry Greenberg Stalls & spins can be fun, (every kid loves an amusement park). A stall is perfomed on every landing, no problem there, right. Making a 180 or 270 or 360 or 720 turns is all part of the training manuvers, no problem turning the plane, right. A spin is just a stall in a turn which happens to allow the aircraft to decend. I honestly don't see what the problem is. R. L. Roberts Ampex Corporation One of the Allied/Signal Companies Audio Video Systems Division Computer Services Group 401 Broadway M.S. 3-54 Redwood City, CA. 94063-3199 (415) 367-3790 ...{hplabs,ucbvax}!atd!avsdT:rlr
brad@gcc-bill.ARPA (Brad Parker) (08/22/85)
In article <434@sdchema.sdchema.UUCP> jpg@sdchema.UUCP (Jerry Greenberg) writes: > I will confess why despite my interest in aviation I have'nt >taken lessons. It can be summed up in two words: "stall" and "spin". With proper training and some good practice, neither one of these are dangerous. In fact, spins are quite fun! I will, however, give you this one: inverted spins are no fun. -- J Bradford Parker uucp: seismo!harvard!gcc-bill!brad "She said you know how to spell AUDACIOUSLY? I could tell I was in love... You want to go to heaven? or would you rather not be saved?" - Lloyd Coal
ted@bcsaic.UUCP (ted jardine) (08/24/85)
In article <434@sdchema.sdchema.UUCP> jpg@sdchema.UUCP (Jerry Greenberg) writes: > I will confess why despite my interest in aviation I haven't taken lessons.> It can be summed up in two words: "stall" and "spin". > Jerry Greenberg No! No!! NO!!! That requires at least four words: STALL, SPIN, CRASH, and BURN!!!! (Let's be serious, so I must here put the tongue in cheek, Yes?!) I can understand people who are apprehensive, and those who may be fearful, but the only thing dangerous about aviation is the person (and thankfully there are very few of them) who ceases to pay attention to detail and/or flies other than ahead of the airplane. The ultimate in a safe and efficient landing is made so that the aircraft stalls just as the wheels or pontoons touch the landing surface. And as for spin, that's something that the propeller or the turbine blades do all the time. TJ (with Amazing Grace) The Piper (aka Ted Jardine) Boeing Artificial Intelligence Center ...uw-beaver!uw-june!bcsaic!ted
dmm@calmasd.UUCP (David M. MacMillan) (08/27/85)
If you are willing to do without an engine [an entirely personal
decision] gliders are a (potentially less expensive) alternative.
I was/am exceptionally fortunate because I was able to
join a soaring club associated with my university. This cut
expenses down to (1) flight fees [$10/day, max $20/month]
(2) tows [$13/tow to 2.5K over], gas, and yearly dues.
[And a $20 one-time fee to join.]
If you're a student, check to see if anything like this exists
at your university. If not, check out the local gliding clubs.
(e.g. The Associated Gliding Clubs of Southern California). My
assumption is that any commercial operation would be more
expensive.
Some amount of glider time (I don't recall how much) can
be used to satisfy the requirements for you powered license.
David M. MacMillan
P.S. [Are advertisements for nonprofit groups permissible?]
If you are a UC San Diego student or alumnus (I think staff, too
but I'm not sure - I'm new at this), the UCSD Soaring Club
welcomes new members. If you're interested, e-mail a note to
me, or call ((619) 452-7761). Opportunities this good are few.pauly@zaphod.UUCP (Paul Yeager) (08/27/85)
In article <434@sdchema.sdchema.UUCP> jpg@sdchema.UUCP (Jerry Greenberg) writes: > > I will confess why despite my interest in aviation I have'nt >taken lessons. It can be summed up in two words: "stall" and "spin". > > > Jerry Greenberg I can empathize with Jerry on these two points, however I now fear neither. Early in the course of my flight instruction in Miami, my instructor demonstrated stalls and stall recovery. After that I was no longer terrified of stalls. Before I go too much further here, let me say that under certain conditions, such as at 100 ft. agl, a stall *IS* terrifying. One of the reasons that slow flight and stalls are a part of the training program is to teach the student to recognize the onset of a stall, and therefore be able to avoid the stall. As for spins, well that's not quite so simple. Due to the fatality rate in spin training, spin training was dropped from the requirements for a private license in the U.S. My personal opinion of this is that it is a foolish reaction to the problem. If it is possible to spin an airplane, the pilot had better know what to do about it. When my job required that I relocate to Canada temporarily, I obtained a student permit here, and set about getting approved for solo while waiting for the FAA to issue my Private Pilot ticket. Spin training is still part of the program here, so I got to experience spins and spin recovery first hand. After the instructor and I did a few spins nd recoveries, I went out solo one day and got up the nerve to spin. The first one wasn't too bad, so I did it again. The second one was so much fun, I did four more! I entered the spin at approx. 3400 ft. agl, and recovered before I lost 1000 feet. The whole point of this is to say basically four things: 1. Stalls and spins *ARE* things to avoid in everyday flight. 2. While they are easily avioded, they *CAN* happen (almost always do to pilot error.) 3. Since they can happen, a pilot should be familiar with the recovery procedures. This requires practice, initially under the direct supervision of an instructor. 4. Stalls and spins *CAN* be practiced safely. Using a plane which has no nasty habits in stall or spin and keeping lots of air between you and the ground are the key points here. Let me also add here that a C-172 has to be really forced into a spin, and it is said that *MOST* general aviaition singles will get themselves out of a spin if you let the controls loose. I must admit I've not yet found the guts to test that statement. Before you let those mere words dissuade you from pursuing flight training, find out what they really represent. Paul Yeager "There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots."
pauly@zaphod.UUCP (Paul Yeager) (08/27/85)
In article <164@avsdT.BERKNET> rlr@avsdT.BERKNET (Rhode L. Roberts) writes: >> >> I will confess why despite my interest in aviation I have'nt >> taken lessons. It can be summed up in two words: "stall" and "spin". >> >> >> Jerry Greenberg > > A stall is perfomed on every landing, no problem there, right. > You stall the plane on every landing?? Where?? Paul Yeager
cfiaime@ihnp3.UUCP (Jeff Williams) (08/28/85)
> >Let me also add here that a C-172 has to be really forced into a spin, >and it is said that *MOST* general aviaition singles will get >themselves out of a spin if you let the controls loose. I must admit >I've not yet found the guts to test that statement. The classic spin recovery is, of course: 1. Opposite rudder 1-2-3 2. Foreward stick 1-2-3 3. Recover However, I have experienced FIRST HAND that a Cessna 152 will recover itself from a spin. I was teaching a young lady how to fly, and was showing her the spin. Whenever I spun, she would grab me and hold on for dear life. (We spun a lot...) Anyway, it came time for her to try one, and she did the old "let go" routine after one turn. The old 152 came out of the spin in about 1/8 turn. Also, Gene Beggs(?) has been touting a spin recovery where you hit opposite rudder, and LET GO OF THE STICK. It works well. (See several of the past issues of Sport Aviation.) I have tried it in a 152, and it works. Haven't had the guts to try it in the Starhawk. Jeff Williams ihnp3!cfiaime
curt@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Curt Dodds) (08/29/85)
In article <283@gcc-bill.ARPA> brad@gcc-bill.UUCP (Brad Parker) writes: >In article <434@sdchema.sdchema.UUCP> jpg@sdchema.UUCP (Jerry Greenberg) writes: >> I will confess why despite my interest in aviation I have'nt >>taken lessons. It can be summed up in two words: "stall" and "spin". > >With proper training and some good practice, neither one of these are >dangerous. In fact, spins are quite fun! > >I will, however, give you this one: inverted spins are no fun. At an airshow here in Oxnard, CA I watched Bob Herendeen perform an inverted FLAT spin having 24 turns. Obviously SOME people even enjoy inverted spins! S. Curt Dodds Programmers do it with bytes and nybbles.
dmmartindale@watcgl.UUCP (Dave Martindale) (08/29/85)
First, let me say that I had to do spins as part of flight training (I'm Canadian) and they aren't very frightening once you know what the plane is going to do. The *first* time, though, can be awfully startling, particularly if you weren't deliberately trying to spin the aircraft. (I was trying to keep the wings level during a stall and instinctively tried to use ailerons - I suspect my instructor was expecting it though.) I figure that anyone that gets a plane into an inadvertent spin at altitude has a pretty poor chance of recovering if they've never practiced spin recovery. And doing some practice spins both teaches respect for spins and understanding that avoiding them is not difficult. If I'd never done a spin, I suspect that I'd either be somewhat terrified of them (since they are unknown) or not have sufficient respect for them. In article <340@zaphod.UUCP> pauly@zaphod.UUCP (Paul Yeager) writes: > >Let me also add here that a C-172 has to be really forced into a spin, >and it is said that *MOST* general aviaition singles will get >themselves out of a spin if you let the controls loose. That isn't quite correct. The spin recovery method Paul is referring to suggests taking your hands OFF the stick/wheel, so you don't make things worse by incorrect control inputs, and apply FULL RUDDER against the spin's rotation. Apparently a wide variety of aircraft recover very well from both normal and inverted spins using this technique. But some may not - for example, requiring full forward stick rather than just hands-off.
tel@cbnap.UUCP (T. E. Lester x3259 3E257) (08/30/85)
In article <341@zaphod.UUCP> pauly@zaphod.UUCP (Paul Yeager) writes: >In article <164@avsdT.BERKNET> rlr@avsdT.BERKNET (Rhode L. Roberts) writes: >>> >>> taken lessons. It can be summed up in two words: "stall" and "spin". >>> Jerry Greenberg >> A stall is perfomed on every landing, no problem there, right. >You stall the plane on every landing?? Where?? >Paul Yeager You are obviously not a pilot. (or else you forgot your smiley face ) A good landing includes a full stall inches above the ground so that the plane touches down at the absolute minimum speed and STAYS there. Any higher speed can result in flying bounces leading to several nasty end results. If you fly with someone that consistantly lands without a stall light/horn going off I suggest you avoid them untill they get more training. Too many tricycle gear airplane drivers fall into this lazy habit and eventually end up buying a slightly bent prop or landing gear for decorating their den wall. (If their lucky). Tom
ark@alice.UucP (Andrew Koenig) (09/01/85)
> A good landing includes a full stall > inches above the ground so that the plane touches down at the absolute > minimum speed and STAYS there. Any higher speed can result in flying > bounces leading to several nasty end results. If you fly with > someone that consistantly lands without a stall light/horn going off > I suggest you avoid them untill they get more training. To some extent this depends on the airplane and the weather. For instance, the Cardinal RG I fly has quite a sensitive stabilator, with a lot of inertia, and a fairly sharp stall (as Cessnas go). If you run out of elevator travel three feet above the runway, you will be very embarrassed. If you touch down with a knot or two of excess airspeed, you will be much less so. If you touch down ten knots too fast, you might bounce. Therefore, in practice I usually find the wheels touching down before the stall horn comes on, or very shortly afterward. But of course I land somewhat differently in strong crosswinds. Minimum flaps, a little extra airspeed, and make sure the wheels are on the ground BEFORE I've lost enough aileron authority to risk dragging a wing. Finally, I once crossed the runway threshold at my home base at 135 knots (in a Cessna 172!) because a Learjet was on my tail. Flaps up, of course, and I used between 4,000 and 5,000 feet of the 6,000 foot runway before I finally stopped (didn't touch down until about 55 knots). My right hand was on the throttle for a possible go-around the whole way.
lmiller@ucla-cs.UUCP (09/02/85)
Three planes I've flown recently, you really don't want to land stalled-- Citabria in a wheel landing Blanik glider 727 (simulator, but it felt like the real thing anyhow!)
RAK@psuvm.BITNET (09/03/85)
A stall is performed on every landing immediatly before touchdown.
-- Rex Knepp RAK @ PSUVM via BITNET
Penn State University
122G Computer Building !psuvax1!psuvm.bitnet!RAK
University Park, PA 16802 via UUCP to BITNET gateway
brad@gcc-bill.ARPA (Brad Parker) (09/03/85)
In article <2295@sdcrdcf.UUCP> curt@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Curt Dodds) writes: >At an airshow here in Oxnard, CA I watched Bob Herendeen perform an >inverted FLAT spin having 24 turns. Obviously SOME people even enjoy >inverted spins! Wow - nice trick. What kind of plane was he driving? Better yet, how was the recovery? -- J Bradford Parker uucp: seismo!harvard!gcc-bill!brad "She said you know how to spell AUDACIOUSLY? I could tell I was in love... You want to go to heaven? or would you rather not be saved?" - Lloyd Coal
ron@brl-tgr.ARPA (Ron Natalie <ron>) (09/03/85)
> The classic spin recovery is, of course: > 1. Opposite rudder 1-2-3 > 2. Foreward stick 1-2-3 > 3. Recover > Don't forget that POWER OFF is another of the steps, however when you are practicing spins it usually is off anyway. -Ron
ths@lanl.ARPA (09/04/85)
> >At an airshow here in Oxnard, CA I watched Bob Herendeen perform an > >inverted FLAT spin having 24 turns. Obviously SOME people even enjoy > >inverted spins! > > Wow - nice trick. What kind of plane was he driving? Better yet, how > was the recovery? > Many airplanes that are certificated FOR spins will enter a "flat spin" mode IF power is NOT removed during the spin. The "trick" that airshow performers use is simply to "spin with power". This keeps the nose up and the airplane enters the flat spin. When they are ready to recover they remove power and the CG lowers the nose allowing conventional recovery. CG and power will alter the spin characteristics of EVERY airplane. You don't have to wear a chute to spin, but it makes you feel soooo much more comfortable. The chute won't help if you don't have the altitude and presence to use it. Now for todays mind teaser. What is the relationship between the four forces of flight (lift, drag, thrust and gravity) during a stabilized constant airspeed climb? This IS a trick question. Reference the FAA commercial written test for the actual wording of the FAA's version of the the question and the publication "Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators" for the "book solution". Ted Spitzmiller
john@gcc-bill.ARPA (John Allred) (09/06/85)
[munch, munch] Well, if it is a constant airspeed climb, there is no acceleration in the thrust/drag axis, so thrust=drag. And, given a constant density atmosphere, lift=gravity. But I have some misgivings ... this seems too easy. What is the answer? -- John Allred General Computer Company uucp: seismo!harvard!gcc-bill!john
curt@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Curt Dodds) (09/16/85)
In article <301@gcc-bill.ARPA> brad@gcc-bill.UUCP (Brad Parker) writes: >In article <2295@sdcrdcf.UUCP> curt@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Curt Dodds) writes: >>At an airshow here in Oxnard, CA I watched Bob Herendeen perform an >>inverted FLAT spin having 24 turns. Obviously SOME people even enjoy >>inverted spins! > >Wow - nice trick. What kind of plane was he driving? Better yet, how >was the recovery? > A Pitts S2A (I think) and the recovery, like the rest of his performance, was terrific. S. Curt Dodds sdcrdcf!irdmega!curt