wanttaja@ssc-vax.UUCP (Ronald J Wanttaja) (11/11/85)
> > When I first heard about Doug's incident, I was pleased with how he handled > the situation. I am still pleased. However, I feel that he should have > said "emergency" when he realized that the airplane was in trouble. There > is nothing wrong in telling the tower that you want special treatment if > you have a problem. > Which brings me to a question I've had for a long time... what are the legal ramifications of declaring an emergency? I realize that it should be more important to consider its benefits during difficulty, but, as I can attest, one has a considerable reluctance to use that word/condition. If you declare an emergency, will this start the FAA sniffing for reg violations? Are there masses of forms to fill out? Do they impound the plane for an investigation? If they decide you didn't really have an *emergency* is there some sort of action? During my little froorah I was trying to avoid "siccing" the FAA on the FBO that sold me the fuel... on the basis that I knew the operator, and knew that (normally) she's very conciencious about that sort of thing. In this litigous-happy society, I'm sure they were quite aware of what could have happened, and their rapid response and upgrades to their fuel system bears this out. So when the engine finally died on high base, that was one of the reasons I hesitated calling "Mayday." If I had crashed, the evidence would have been found. Since all I had to do was make one good approach, I also felt very silly about calling it an emergency (uncontrolled airport w/Unicom). So I just called and requested a clear runway due to engine problems. I actually considered calling "PAN," but felt that would confuse them more than anything... So what about it??? What'll the FAA/FCC do to you afterwards if you call "Mayday?" Ron Wanttaja (ssc-vax!wanttaja) Definition of PROPELLER: "Fan to keep pilot cool. Turn it off and watch him sweat."
bl@hplabsb.UUCP (11/13/85)
> Which brings me to a question I've had for a long time... what are the > legal ramifications of declaring an emergency? I realize that it should be > more important to consider its benefits during difficulty, but, as I can > attest, one has a considerable reluctance to use that word/condition. If > you declare an emergency, will this start the FAA sniffing for reg > violations? Are there masses of forms to fill out? Do they impound the > plane for an investigation? If they decide you didn't really have an > *emergency* is there some sort of action? > > ... > > So what about it??? What'll the FAA/FCC do to you afterwards if you call > "Mayday?" I can relate a personal experience. As the wife and I were heading south to our favorite restaurant for a Sunday afternoon meal, the RPMs in our C150 started to fluctuate. First reaction is that it's imagination. However, after it fluctuated several times we decided to detour to an airport which was about 20 miles away. After turning I called on 121.5 and announced "PAN PAN PAN" and gave our number. Dead silence on the radio. Just as I was about to say it again the engine went to idle. This time I called "Mayday Mayday Mayday". The radio squealed as several people answered. We finally got in contact with the center controller who found us on radar and gave us vectors and distance to the airport. As we neared the airport, the controller requested that we contact FSS to let them know that we made it down OK. We made an uneventful dead stick landing (We were over the airport at 2000 AGL and pulled the throttle back). After a frustrating battle with the telephone and not being able to get through to a FSS, a local police car showed up. The police were notified by the controller who asked that they check on our well being. We told the officer that we were OK. I finally got through to a distant FSS by calling an 800 number. Other than the police showing up, we had no further contact from the FAA or FCC, no questions and no forms to fill out. If you are in an emergency situation, confess, communicate, climb, and comply (where have you heard that before?). The controllers are there to help. If there were no violations of the regs, no property damage, no inflight fire, and no injury, then there is no reason for FAA hassle. Foot note: As we were taxiing off the runway, the engine ran OK. I did a mag check which was OK and tried a full power run up which worked OK. We're still not sure what the problem was, but carb ice is the #1 suspect.
ark@alice.UucP (Andrew Koenig) (11/13/85)
> If you are in > an emergency situation, confess, communicate, climb, and comply (where > have you heard that before?). The controllers are there to help. If > there were no violations of the regs, no property damage, no inflight > fire, and no injury, then there is no reason for FAA hassle. You are, of course, completely correct. There is no reason for FAA hassle. Unfortunately, this is no guarantee that there won't be one anyway. The FAA seems to like to harrass people for mysterious reasons. Such as the flight instructor who had one of his students complain that said instructor had endorsed the student's logbook for instruction not actually given. When the instructor appeared before the FAA, he pointed out that the student's log was "endorsed" with a rubber stamp, that the instructor had no such stamp, and that he could prove he was 150 miles away at the time the alleged endorsement had been given. Confronted with this, the student admitted he had forged the endorsements himself. When the FAA asked the student to put this confession in writing, the student did so. That was the end of the matter. Well, not quite. Although the FAA had no further evidence against this instructor, they proposed to lift his license anyway. The instructor, of course, appealed. Since the FAA was handling the appeal, he lost. So he appealed again -- to the National Transportation Safety Board. Since the FAA had no case whatever, the instructor won. He then sued in Federal court under the Equal Access to Justice Act to recover his legal fees for defending this obviously frivolous accusation on the part of the FAA. He won more than $17,000 in legal fees. Last I heard, the FAA had appealed the award and the case had not come up yet. Of course, while all of this was going on, the flight instructor lost his job. He had in fact been running the FBO at his home base. One news of his troubles got around, his insurance company cancelled his policies. No insurance, no FBO. He couldn't get a flying job anywhere for five years because of this case. And all because of one admittedly groundless accusation. If you declare an emergency, you should assume that you will eventually lose your license as a result. That way, you can consider yourself doubly lucky if you survive the emergency and don't lose your ticket.
cfiaime@ihnp3.UUCP (J. Williams) (11/13/85)
In article <3164@hplabsb.UUCP> bl@hplabsb.UUCP writes: >> Which brings me to a question I've had for a long time... what are the >> legal ramifications of declaring an emergency? I realize that it should be >> more important to consider its benefits during difficulty, but, as I can >> attest, one has a considerable reluctance to use that word/condition. If >> you declare an emergency, will this start the FAA sniffing for reg >> violations? Are there masses of forms to fill out? Do they impound the >> plane for an investigation? If they decide you didn't really have an >> *emergency* is there some sort of action? >> >> ... >> >> So what about it??? What'll the FAA/FCC do to you afterwards if you call >> "Mayday?" War story... One Christmas weekend, my wife and I were flying from Wichita to the Chicago area in a fairly new Cessna 210. Over Olathe, Kansas (just outside of Kansas City), we had an electrical fire. There were fumes in the cabin, fluctuating ammeter, and the whole nine yards. After getting the fire out (normal kill EVERYTHING, then bring systems back up), we had no alternator. I told approach control, "Cessna 732ND, I would like to change my destination from Chicago, DuPage to Kansas City Downtown." To which they said, "Ok, you are number three for the approach." Whereupon I said, "Fine, but I don't want to be up here too long because I have electrical problems, however the fire is out." Their reaction was, "You are cleared present position, direct. TWA 111, give way to a Cessna 210, United 412, Hold for the TWA, Ozark..." I did not declare an emergency. I should have. There was no paperwork involved. Several years later, my wife and I were in a Cherokee Warrior going into Springfield, Illinois. We totally lost the charging system due to wear in the alternator. We also lost the turn coordinator. In the clouds. This time I shut down all but one radio, and said "Emergency." When we landed, no one said or did anything (except repair the airplane). I even have landed at an Air Force base because of weather (while on a Civil Air Patrol bloodrun) and have yet to fill out form number one. However, if I do have to fill out a form, you best believe that it will be with a smile on my face, because body and soul are still in one piece (theological discussions aside). jeff williams ihnp3!cfiaime AT&T Bell Laboratories
ron@brl-sem.ARPA (Ron Natalie <ron>) (11/15/85)
> War story... > One Christmas weekend, my wife and I were flying from Wichita to the > Chicago area in a fairly new Cessna 210. Over Olathe, Kansas (just > outside of Kansas City), we had an electrical fire. There were fumes > in the cabin, fluctuating ammeter, and the whole nine yards. After > getting the fire out (normal kill EVERYTHING, then bring systems back > up), we had no alternator. I told approach control, "Cessna 732ND, I > would like to change my destination from Chicago, DuPage to Kansas City > Downtown." To which they said, "Ok, you are number three for the > approach." Whereupon I said, "Fine, but I don't want to be up here > too long because I have electrical problems, however the fire is out." > Their reaction was, "You are cleared present position, direct. TWA 111, > give way to a Cessna 210, United 412, Hold for the TWA, Ozark..." > I did not declare an emergency. I should have. There was no paperwork > involved. You are required to report inflight fires. It's on the list of things in NTSB 830 or whatever that reg is.
djmolny@cuae2.UUCP (DJ Molny) (11/15/85)
Newsgroups: net.aviation Subject: Re: Declaring an emergency... the ramifications? Summary: Expires: References: <769@bgsuvax.UUCP> <32838@lanl.ARPA> <182@ihnp3.UUCP> <184@ihnp3.UUCP> <359@ssc-vax.UUCP> <3164@hplabsb.UUCP> Sender: Reply-To: djmolny@cuae2.UUCP (-DJ Molny) Followup-To: Distribution: net Organization: AT&T - /app/eng, Lisle, IL Keywords: > Which brings me to a question I've had for a long time... what are the > legal ramifications of declaring an emergency? I realize that it should be > more important to consider its benefits during difficulty, but, as I can > attest, one has a considerable reluctance to use that word/condition. If > you declare an emergency, will this start the FAA sniffing for reg > violations? Are there masses of forms to fill out? Do they impound the > plane for an investigation? If they decide you didn't really have an > *emergency* is there some sort of action? Two weeks ago, I was conducting an IFR in visual conditions, when the alternator needle started jumping between 0 and +30, and the alternator warning lamp came on itermittently. Fort Wayne (Indiana) was handling that leg of the flight, so I explained the problem and requested vectors to Fort Wayne, about 30 miles away. (No emergency yet, but I wanted a shop to look at it.) I spotted the field from about nine miles out, and approach handed me off to the tower, who cleared me to land. About a minute later, the alternator needle went to zero and stayed there. Well, enough is enough. Piper Arrows need electric power to drop the gear and run the radios, and I didn't know if the battery had been discharged or damaged during the wild alternator activity. "Mayday, mayday, N1089Q alternator failure, request priority to the field, and I may lose radio communications." (Approx. 5 seconds of silence ensued.) "89Q, roger, cleared to land any and all runways. The equipment is on the way." Equipment? Well, I didn't really want the crash trucks, but I figured it was standard procedure. I shut off everything but one nav/comm, and dropped the gear. The gear came down okay (albeit slowly), and the approach and landing were otherwise uneventful. One of the crash trucks followed me to the maintenance hangar while the others returned to their base. The fireman who greeted me when I emerged was very friendly, and just took a few notes about the incident. (He wanted the aircraft's N number and model, my name, home base, the owner's name, and the general nature of the problem.) End of red tape. When the alternator quit, the engine was running great, there was nothing wrong with the airframe, the weather was VMC, and there was no imminent danger to life and limb. So why did I declare an emergency? Because I was approaching a large, busy airport with an unreliable source of electrical power, and therefore unreliable communications. I wanted to be sure there would be no traffic in my way, and no need for further conversation with the controller. The maintenance shop discovered that the over-voltage relay was tripping at normal voltages, forcing the voltage regulator to shut down the alternator. Once the battery took over, the voltage was low enough to reset the relay, the alternator kicked back in, and the relay tripped again. This see-saw went on until the relay stayed open. The bottom line: Both the controller and the crash crew were very professional and supportive. There was no second-guessing, no demands for explanations, no paperwork, and no letters from the FAA. I'm sure the FAA doesn't want to discourage pilots from declaring an emergency, and I can't imagine the feds giving you a hard unless you declared an emergency for no discernable reason. When your ability to fly safely compromised, always Always ALWAYS declare an emergency. Better safe than sorry. -- Regards, DJ Molny ihnp4!cuae2!djmolny
wool@oracle.UUCP (Chris Wooldridge) (11/17/85)
In article <4554@alice.UUCP>, ark@alice.UucP (Andrew Koenig) writes: > If you declare an emergency, you should assume that you will eventually > lose your license as a result. That way, you can consider yourself > doubly lucky if you survive the emergency and don't lose your ticket. I don't agree. Declaring an emergency is nothing more than laying the legal groundwork to invoke FAR 91.3 - which is your right and obligation as PIC in a tight spot. I know plenty of pilots who have done it. I personally know of none who have had "certificate action" for doing so, even the usual "caught in IFR conditions" ones. I know of only two (personally) who have had to explain it later (under 91.3(c)). And in both cases it ended there. I don't want to encourage anyone to yell emergency because, say, their DME quits in flight. Emergency authority is nothing to use rashly. But when you need it, use it. -- Chris Wooldridge Oracle Corporation 1100 206th Avenue, N.E. Redmond, Wa. 98053 (206) 868-1985 {ihnp4!muuxl,hplabs}!oracle!wool