bsc@wuphys.UUCP (Bryan Coughlan) (07/17/85)
>Too bad Phil never learned how to play drums .......... > I enjoy Phil and Genesis much better when Phil stays in front >of the drums and behind the mike. > Sam WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? You think Phil can't play drums ??? He's only one of the best rock drummers of this decade (and last ... not just my opinion). He's also one of the hottest producers around, and he can even write a good song now and then. By the way, I've been reading about how Phil "ripped off" Prince's "1999" when he wrote "Susudio" (Not one of his best efforts!). I've listened to both songs and am still trying to figure out how it could be a ripoff (talk to me, Rich!). Is it ... - a similarity between the keyboards in certain sections of both songs? - the rhythms? - verse structure? - a confession by Phil signed in blood? - something else? There is a slight similarity in the keyboards and rhythm, but not enough for me to consider plagiarism to have occurred. The verse structure (ABACAB :-) seems entirely different. So, how are the two songs so alike? A popular pastime on the net and everywhere is to criticize the most successful performers. In some cases, it can be justified; they succeed by finding the lowest common denominator. I don't think that it is true in this case, however. I've heard too many weird songs out of him (Do You Know, Do You Care, for instance) to belive in the Phil Collins LCD theorem! By the way, I am a fan. I hope that didn't muddle my thinking TOO much ! -- Bryan S. Coughlan ( Yes, that's right. My first ihnp4!wuphys!bsc two initials are B.S. ! )
rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Rich Rosen) (07/17/85)
>>Too bad Phil never learned how to play drums .......... >> I enjoy Phil and Genesis much better when Phil stays in front >>of the drums and behind the mike. >> Sam > WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? > You think Phil can't play drums ??? > He's only one of the best rock drummers of this decade (and last ... > not just my opinion). > He's also one of the hottest producers around, and he can even write > a good song now and then. [BRYAN COUGHLAN] Agreed. But... > By the way, I've been reading about how Phil "ripped off" Prince's > "1999" when he wrote "Susudio" (Not one of his best efforts!). > I've listened to both songs and am still trying to figure out > how it could be a ripoff (talk to me, Rich!). Is it ... > - a similarity between the keyboards in certain sections of > both songs? > - the rhythms? > - verse structure? > - a confession by Phil signed in blood? > - something else? > There is a slight similarity in the keyboards and rhythm, but not > enough for me to consider plagiarism to have occurred. The verse > structure (ABACAB :-) seems entirely different. So, how are > the two songs so alike? The whole "verse" section (up to the A minor chordings), is completely lifted from the two opening chords of 1999 repeated ad infinitum. The melody line starts of similarly and then dribbles into non-melodyism of a sort. The very organ sound used in 1999 is reproduced specifically. Unfortunately, musical plagiarism requires a fixed amount of actual melody/harmony lifting to be "legally" called plagiarism, since there is no fixed quantitative way to judge how plagiaristic timbres and individual chords might be. In this case, we are dealing with one of the prime hooks of the song, and for a supposedly creative individual like Collins to stoop to lifting other people's hooks is despicable. (For an example, a similar timbral/stylistic plagiarism is Corey Hart's "Sunglasses at Night", which steals the double-note sequencer concept and style from the Eurythmics' "Sweet Dreams", as Robbie Dupree's "Steal Away" (what an appropriate title) lifted the prime chords and rhythmic hook from the Doobie Brothers' "What A Fool Believes" (not that we were dealing with great material to start with there!) > A popular pastime on the net and everywhere is to criticize the > most successful performers. In some cases, it can be justified; > they succeed by finding the lowest common denominator. I don't > think that it is true in this case, however. I've heard too > many weird songs out of him (Do You Know, Do You Care, for instance) > to belive in the Phil Collins LCD theorem! There are two types of such criticism. One is the type levelled at Madonna or Duran Duran---they have no real talent, they're getting by on looks and image, etc. While one can make the claim that occasionally these sort of people DO create good material, on the whole the criticism is justified in that they make their names solely on image rather than musical creativity, while serious musicians with real talent go unnoticed because of lack of exposure (and because the American public won't like anything they're not told to like!). The other type of criticism is the type levelled at people like Collins and Paul McCartney, for example. I mean, Collins is an enormous talent! Listen to the work he's written and performed with Genesis from way back (not post-"Three" stuff), look at the other work he's done with Brand X and Brian Eno. Sure, he emulated Bruford (all of Genesis got some of their style from outside----Hackett lived most of his career pompously thinking he was Robert Fripp!), but though he wasn't quite as good, he showed real talent. The fact that he chooses to use that talent flippantly on throwaway material is worth criticizing. Likewise with McCartney. The man who wrote "Here, There, Everywhere", "Helter Skelter", "Things We Said Today", "For No One" (for example) now chooses to write "Silly Love Songs", et al (admittedly, "Another Lonely Night", though an incredibly wimpy song, had the best McCartney melody in ten years!) and to rest on past laurels by plopping himself down at the piano to sing the most inappropriate song possible for Live Aid ("Let It Be"). Such criticism is worthwhile. We should send people like Levadie to their houses to call them wankers at every possible available opportunity. Get them off their duffs! Make them do some creative work for a change. (Speaking of criticism of Duran Duran, read the interview with Bob Geldof in this month's Musician magazine, in which he lashes out (in his most diplomatic way) at those who get pissed off at Duran Duran arriving at the Band Aid sessions in a limo. As it turns out, they cancelled gigs, got lawsuits threatened for doing so, and flew half way round the world (apparently) to be there, whilst some people choose to malign them for it.) -- Life is complex. It has real and imaginary parts. Rich Rosen ihnp4!pyuxd!rlr