telecom@ucbvax.ARPA (01/15/85)
From: Jon Solomon (the Moderator) <Telecom-Request@BBNCCA> TELECOM Digest Mon, 14 Jan 85 16:46:43 EST Volume 4 : Issue 147 Today's Topics: Reach Out America $10 per hr. rate Advance Toll Payments "attack dialing"? Frigging obnoxious tel solicitors; fact & advice (?) Re: $10 per hr. rate Re: Advance Toll Payments ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 12 Jan 85 10:22:03 est From: ulysses!smb@UCB-VAX (Steven Bellovin) To: telecom@bbncca.ARPA Subject: Reach Out America Cc: vax135!petsd!peora!jer@UCB-VAX There was indeed a great deal of regulatory controversy when AT&T filed the tariffs for "Reach Out America" (the late-night discount calling plan). AT&T's claim was that the plan would stimulate demand; hence, by charging less, they'd increase revenues with little increase in costs. That's very attractive to regulatory agencies.... Besides, it's not reasonable to say that AT&T shouldn't be allowed to compete with MCI et al.... --Steve Bellovin AT&T Bell Laboratories "The preceeding statements are my own personal opinions, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of AT&T, AT&T Bell Laboratories, etc." ------------------------------ Date: 12 January 85 12:17-EST From: Michael Grant <GRANT%UMDB.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA> To: Telecom Digest <TELECOM@BBNCCA> (.ARPA) Subject: $10 per hr. rate $10 per hour rate comes out to $0.166 per minute. I've not heard of of the $8.50 rate ($0.141/min). Is there some clause that says that you pay for the hour wether you use it or not? I have SBS, they charge $0.11/min to a neighboring state, $0.15 within a 'region' (whatever that can mean) and $.17 'coast to coast'. (these rates are all late night/weekend rates.) AT&T actually wins if you call 'coast to coast' all the time. But I don't always spend an hour on the phone long distance each month. Has anyone seen any other long distance service which is more econimical? I'd like to see a company offer flat rate long distance. But I'm sure it would just be abused. (by flat rate I mean, pay one price each month) -Mike Grant ------------------------------ Date: Sat 12 Jan 85 11:18:39-PST From: Ole Jorgen Jacobsen <OLE@SRI-NIC.ARPA> Subject: Advance Toll Payments To: Telecom@MIT-MC.ARPA I received a surprising phone call from Pacific Bell recently. They had discovered that during the first 11 days of that particular billing period, I had made a number of long distance (overseas) phonecalls and "based on their pro- jection" my phonebill would end up totalling $700 or so for that month. They therefore demanded *immediate* payment of "advance toll charges" so far accumulated (about $200). I gave up arguing with them since I knew the billing period ended on the 19th and it was the 14th when they called me up, in other words, I *knew* that the total bill for that month would be almost exactly what they wanted in advance. Immediate payment meant *the next day* or else my phone would be dis- connected and re-connection charges would be applied. I'm sure glad I was not out of town when this happened. Has anyone had similar experiences? Why on earth do they apply this weird statistical formula which says if you use you phone alot at the beginning of the month then they "project" your usage will be the same for the rest of the month? And why do they give you absolutely NO grace period for "advance toll" payments? I guess the answer is as always: "We don't care, we don't have to, we're the Phone Company" <OLE> <370> ------- ------------------------------ Date: 13 January 1985 09:12-EST From: Howard D. Trachtman <HDT@Mit-Mc.ARPA> Subject: "attack dialing"? To: cmoore@Brl-Vld.ARPA "Second, If a store puts your number on their telephone solicitation list, can you cure them of that by repeatedly calling them, or is that illegal (I think that it's called attack dialing?)" It does sound illegal (so there'd better be a good way of getting your number off such a list). The following is excerpted from Northeastern Maryland call guide (check for laws of other states, but don't be sur- prised if they're pretty much the same): "Abusive calling: It is a criminal offense under Maryland and Federal Laws for any person to make use of telephone facilities and equipment for: Repeated calls--If with intent to annoy, abuse, torment, harass, or em- barrass one or more persons." (Also mentioned are anonymous calls and obscene comments.) I would hope this is illegal. Just the other day I was wondering what would happen to a company with an 800 number that got attack called on it. Even if the bill never got paid, tying up an order line might kill them. --Howard-- The above was for thought purposes only. Do NOT repeat this stunt at home. ------------------------------ Date: 13 January 1985 04:56-EST From: Howard D. Trachtman <HDT @ MIT-MC> Subject: Frigging obnoxious tel solicitors; fact & advice (?) To: hpda!hptabu!dclaar @ UCB-VAX Date: Tue, 8 Jan 85 12:15:25 pst From: hpda!hptabu!dclaar at Berkeley (Doug Claar) To: 'Telecom-Request' at BBNCCA.ARPA Re: questions about touchstar service I have a couple of questions about the TOUCHSTAR service. First, I note that unlisted numbers are protected. Does this include protection from call back? I can see telephone soliciters getting unlisted numbers <*> {convention invention} Um, this is the default case even in phone rooms that are "less obnoxious". The people in the room don't even know the phone number. Frequently, they bought the phones in blocks, and if a couple people in a row are not at their phone, you will hear one phone ring about 1 or 2 rings then the next then the other. I think we can all guess the process being described. <*> so that people can't touch them. Many pay phones are already hacked so as not to accept incoming calls. There probably is/will be a "feature" one could buy that would always prevent your number from being called and ringing, as but there are other reasons for that (in fact I'm sure I saw this as a TOUCHSTAR feature on a "temporary" basis. Even in "losing" areas, one could always call forward one's phone to a local losing place (if willing to pay forwarding charges). Seperate Legal scenerious. Suppose ANY business forwards your phone to: 1) a KNOWN place such as the local weather w/ intent to simply avoid incoming calls a) Would this have to be cleared with the target phone number i) If calls were excessive ii) Even if number is "Advertised" to take gobs & gobs of calls iii) Under no/any conditions iv) When intent is merely to avoid these calls. v) When done temporary as a "hack" for a few minutes 2) a PRIVATE residence that is unknown. i) if selected at random ii) if selected w/ intent to annoy iii) by mistake eg. wrong phone # typed in to forwarding mech. (YES, this requires receive party to answer.....NOW/as does above ... Second, If a store puts your number on their telephone solicitation list, can you cure them of that by repeatedly calling them, or is that illegal (I think that it's called attack dialing?) Um, repeatedly calling can only cause the original person possible legal problems and make the target party mad. REMEMBER: IN THE CASE OF TELEPHONE SOLICITORS THEY HAVE the ideal environment to ATTACK call YOU, if they desired. While legally that may screw you, I've known places to make a decision to YANK all phones and people out of an office in less that 2 days. All you lose is a fraction of 1 months rent; your good employees hang with you. Solution: Most solicitors of general-hawkish items (ie. not financial services sales & marketing professionals) are, while on commission, usually are making 1-4 X minimum wage (even if on 100% commission, one's checks usually are about the same each week (depending on hours worked, of course) and really are the typical hardworking college student trying to make a buck (got to put in a plug for them/us on the ARPANET). The long term soliciting operations really are concerned not to annoy people, and if you tell them politely if they could take you off the list you can/will do so. Sometimes, they will be lazy and not do so, therefore its usually a good idea to ask for the supervisor, even though they may gribe. Also, if you have an unlisted number, don't bother asking "how did you get this number" unless you want to waste a lot of time. Most solicitors are programmed to answer this "We dial in numerical sequence and... {you're the lucky winner}. As far fetched as this may seem, many times it is correct. If it isn't, then your number came out of (you guessed it), some kind of directory (Haines, Polk, Thomas, phone book). Unless you really want to engage in conversation most of the people are too stupid to be able to help you. (Like even if they are calling numbers out of the Haines directory, sometimes the solicitor is really only dialing a list of numbers off of a adding machine tape readout or a computer printout and would have no idea where the numbes originally came from. Howard D. Trachtman R & B Consulting, Inc. Cambridge, MA PS: I still own an operation that legally can do telephone-solitici (actually anyone can legally, but commercial liscences...). Note there is a big difference between various soliciting places. If interested, I could provide a brief summary. Rest assured though that I won't call *you* up at home. I once saw representatives at a "firm (reg. w/BBB clean record in 2 relevant and 1 random AREA code that called after 1 1/2 years) which sold "advertising specialties (long story of those con people {again, only if interested}) call people up at work and if they didn't buy, on their own personal whim would hack a home phone number associated with that person, and call the spouse (non-sexist on my part) to see if 'direct quote: "She's a bitch or not". This was real heavy stuff that turned my stomach, but I didn't want to fight the system. These reps had their own secretaries, and I honestly doubt if the managers knew everything that was going on. (Sure the supers can always listen in, but the reps can defeat/detect that easily). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jan 85 16:32:48 EST From: Jon Solomon <jsol@bbncca.ARPA> Subject: Re: $10 per hr. rate To: Michael Grant <GRANT%UMDB.BITNET@wiscvm.arpa> Cc: Telecom Digest <TELECOM@bbncca.arpa> My AT&T Reach out America service is billed at $11.50 for the first hour (whether you use it or not), and $8.50 per hour (pro rated - you pay for what you use and no more) after that. The $11.50 rather than $10.00 is so I can get 15% discount on evening calls too. While it is a bit more expensive than SBS, the quality of the service really pays for itself ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jan 85 16:35:04 EST From: Jon Solomon <jsol@bbncca.ARPA> Subject: Re: Advance Toll Payments To: Ole Jorgen Jacobsen <OLE@sri-nic.arpa> Cc: Telecom@mit-mc.arpa I've dealt with Pacific Bell (when it was Pacific Telephone), GTE, NJ Bell, Southern New England Telephone, and New England Telephone in my life and I have never found a larger bunch of assholes than in the California Phone companies. One note of sympathy is that GTE is far WORSE than Pacif**k. On a lighter note, Pacific Telephone was probably just covering it's collective ass about international calling (which has been greatly abused in the past). While they didn't mention it at the time, I'm pretty sure they were also interested in knowing whether you in fact made the International Calls and they wanted to know immediately so they could start an investigation if you hadn't. I've been hit with "projected" calling in California too, but I was told I had a week (and it was in writing, not by phone). I'm so glad I live in an area where phone companies feel that customers are important and should be dealt with respectfully. ------------------------------ End of TELECOM Digest ******************************