<CJS@psuvm.psu.edu> (06/12/91)
I understand that users of track balls find them superior to mice. They are now readily available as mice replacements. But I would like to see keyboards with track balls built-in. I'll bet there are some now or rsn. Comments? It seems to me that it would be nice to reach the ball without moving your fingers from the home row of the keyboard (unlike most cursor keys and function keys). I wonder how a location right below the space bar, reachable by either thumb, would work. Comments? ---- Christopher J. Sacksteder, Lead System Developer THE Pennsylvania State University, Center for Academic Computing Bitnet: CJS at PSUVM Internet: cjs@psuvm.psu.edu USnail: 105 Computer Building, University Park, PA 16802
klefstad@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Sue Klefstad) (06/12/91)
CJS@psuvm.psu.edu writes: >I understand that users of track balls find them superior to mice. >They are now readily available as mice replacements. >But I would like to see keyboards with track balls built-in. I'll bet >there are some now or rsn. Comments? >It seems to me that it would be nice to reach the ball without moving >your fingers from the home row of the keyboard (unlike most cursor keys >and function keys). I wonder how a location right below the space bar, >reachable by either thumb, would work. Comments? This is what the 3rd party Mac portable (the Outbounder?) uses. It's a bar that sits just below that space bar with a button on each side. Haven't heard raves about it but anything new would take some getting used to. -- - Sue Klefstad Ill. Natural History Survey s-klefstad@uiuc.edu
yee@osf.org (Michael K. Yee) (06/12/91)
In article <1991Jun12.142307.210@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> klefstad@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Sue Klefstad) writes: > This is what the 3rd party Mac portable (the Outbounder?) uses. > It's a bar that sits just below that space bar with a button > on each side. Haven't heard raves about it but anything new would > take some getting used to. I saw a drawing of a new Mac portable in Mac Week, and guess what? It had a small trackball centered just below the keyboard's spacebar. Look like it could be more convenient to use than a mouse. =Mike -- == Michael K. Yee <yee@osf.org> -+- OSF/Motif Team == Open Software Foundation - 11 Cambridge Center - Cambridge, MA 02142 == HCI quote : "The problem with mnemonics are that they : == of the month : mean different things to different people." :
spinner@wpi.WPI.EDU (Bevan R S Wang) (06/12/91)
>>>>> On 12 Jun 91 12:31:44 GMT, CJS@psuvm.psu.edu said:
CJS> I understand that users of track balls find them superior to
CJS> mice. They are now readily available as mice replacements.
Gads, track balls superior! I for one find track balls not
as accurate as to a mouse. Also there seems to be less
"fluid-motion" in a track ball rather than a mouse.
Bevan Wang
--
_______________________________________________________________________________
Bevan R.S. Wang
Internet: spinner@wpi.wpi.edu
America Online: Bevan Wangdmorin@wpi.WPI.EDU (Duane D Morin) (06/12/91)
In article <1991Jun12.142307.210@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> klefstad@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Sue Klefstad) writes: >CJS@psuvm.psu.edu writes: > >>I understand that users of track balls find them superior to mice. >>They are now readily available as mice replacements. > >>But I would like to see keyboards with track balls built-in. I'll bet >>there are some now or rsn. Comments? > >>It seems to me that it would be nice to reach the ball without moving >>your fingers from the home row of the keyboard (unlike most cursor keys >>and function keys). I wonder how a location right below the space bar, >>reachable by either thumb, would work. Comments? > As a user of a trackball (more specifically, a "thumb ball") I have to agree with an earlier post that says they're not as accurate or as fluid as a mouse. Then again, my use of the ball is limited to rare occasions when I forget a function key sequence in Wordperfect, or whatever. In cases like that, I can take the time to line up my cursor where I want it to be, since Im only dealing in text modes. I wouldn't wish it on anyone doing anything remotely graphic, like CAD. Although I've heard that it can be used rather well in a Windows 3.0 environment. I've seen keyboards with trackballs built in, but, as you point out, they are little more than extensions to the right hand side of the keyboard, past the numeric keypad, making an even longer reach for your hand. (Well, my track ball sits on my desk next to my keyboard anyway. Six of one, half dozen of another...) A location right under the spacebar seems feasible, provided that: 1) Its NOT in a location that can easily be bumped by your hands. Some applications have auto activating windows or menus that simply need to be pointed at to come alive, and a rogue pointer wouldn't be good here. 2) It should have some sort of design that makes the use of the thumbs comfortable and natural. Look at the placement of your hands on the keyboard right now. Move your thumb around a little bit. Now try and move it, fairly accurately, in each of the four compass directions without getting a cramp or moving the rest of your hand. The joint simply doesn't want to move like that. Take the idea of having your hands never leave the home row one step further, and equip people with a simple headset that they can don while at the terminal. Just look at the screen and move the cursor wherever you want it to go. Unfortunately, this is in direct violation of rule (1) that I just listed. How do you know when to turn it on or off? A hot key sequence? That defeats the purpose, somewhat. It could be argued that a "keyboardist" as opposed to a "typist" can manipulate the function keys just as rapidly as a traditional typewriter, and therefore could hit F10 or something without much problem. The technology to do this certainly isn't unrealistic - if Nintendo can mass produce such a monster, anyone can. dmorin@wpi.wpi.edu
bentson@sumax.seattleu.edu (Randy+Cindy Bentson) (06/12/91)
In article <91163.083144CJS@psuvm.psu.edu> CJS@psuvm.psu.edu writes: >I understand that users of track balls find them superior to mice. >They are now readily available as mice replacements. > Christopher (or whoever wants to enlighten me): Well, I for one am ignorant but intrigued. I have used both the cursor arrow/hjkl keys and mice, and am curious about these track balls. How do they work? Will my experience with them be the - gosh, how to put this into words? - line by line (like Etch-a-Sketch) movement or a more subltle flowing movement that puts you where you want to be "instantly" - like mice do? The idea of having something on the keyboard is attractive (I always lose the mouse, or have no reasonable surface to run it on). What other advantages are there? Cindy B.
jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) (06/13/91)
From article <1991Jun12.155623.15673@wpi.WPI.EDU>, by dmorin@wpi.WPI.EDU (Duane D Morin): > > As a user of a trackball (more specifically, a "thumb ball") I have to > agree with an earlier post that says they're not as accurate or as > fluid as a mouse. Proper trackballs are large enough to be worked by the palm of the hand for coarse motion, and by the fingertips for fine motion. To work this way, your ball needs to be about 3 inches in diameter, and it must protrude at least half-an-inch from the housing. Given a trackball built like that, you should expect positioning speed and accuracy better than a mouse once you get used to it, but no keyboard mounted trackball that I can think of would meet this requirement, at least not in this age of detatchable lightweight keyboards. Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu
doehr@magellan.den.mmc.com (Brett B. Doehr) (06/13/91)
In article <2909@sumax.seattleu.edu>, bentson@sumax.seattleu.edu (Randy+Cindy Bentson) writes: |> Christopher (or whoever wants to enlighten me): |> Well, I for one am ignorant but intrigued. I have used both |> the cursor arrow/hjkl keys and mice, and am curious |> about these track balls. How do they work? Will my experience with |> them be the - gosh, how to put this into words? - line by line |> (like Etch-a-Sketch) movement or a more subltle flowing movement |> that puts you where you want to be "instantly" - like mice do? |> |> The idea of having something on the keyboard is attractive (I |> always lose the mouse, or have no reasonable surface to run |> it on). What other advantages are there? |> |> Cindy B. The advantages seem to be not needing the surface space to move the mouse and not having to move your hand from the keyboard to move/use the cursor/pointer. The disadvantages may be a larger keyboard to deal with, less precision in moving the cursor/pointer, and having to shift the hand to click the trackball buttons. The concept is (if you have a mechanical mouse as opposed to an optical one) similar to lifting the mouse up and moving the "mouse ball" with your fingers to move the cursor. They are popular with the portable computer industry and also with space applications like shuttle and space station. In zero-gravity, a mouse would float at the end of its cable, you may accidently click a mouse button when grabbing it, etc. A trackball is a ball mounted in the keyboard by being seated under a hole smaller than the ball's diameter, so it cannot float free but can be spun with the palm. Hope all of this helped to enlighten you. If you still can't visualize the concept, go to your nearest video arcade. Many games now use them 8-). --Brett. ============================================================| Brett B. Doehr Martin Marietta Astronautics Group | Voice: (303) 977-1504 Internet: doehr@den.mmc.com | Fax: (303) 977-1530 America Online: BrettBD | "Writing software that only a mother could love..." | ============================================================|
cohill@vtserf.cc.vt.edu (Andrew M. Cohill) (06/13/91)
In article <91163.083144CJS@psuvm.psu.edu> CJS@psuvm.psu.edu writes: >I understand that users of track balls find them superior to mice. >They are now readily available as mice replacements. ....a self-selecting survey. Obviously, anyone who has and uses a trackball thinks that it's better than a mouse. But there are those of us who have tried trackballs and found them lacking. -- | ...we have to look for routes of power our teachers never | imagined, or were encouraged to avoid. T. Pynchon | |Andy Cohill cohill@vtserf.cc.vt.edu VPI&SU
yee@osf.org (Michael K. Yee) (06/13/91)
In article <1991Jun12.181324.12617@den.mmc.com> doehr@magellan.den.mmc.com (Brett B. Doehr) writes: > They are popular with the > portable computer industry and also with space applications like > shuttle and space station. In zero-gravity, a mouse would float > at the end of its cable, you may accidently click a mouse button > when grabbing it, etc. Yeah, you're right. In zero-gravity, the ball in a mouse would also float. May be an optical mouse with a magnetic base attached to its mating steel optical mouse pad would be better. Hmmm... may be I should patent it. Yeah, that's the ticket! And I'll call it the Mighty-Mouse! And for keyboards, how about a tiny magnetic mouse (about the size of a finger) attached to a steel pad the size of the numeric keypad. The mouse button would be the size of the mouse, but requires firm finger pressure to activate. Hmmm... may be I should patent this too, and call it .... Mini-Mouse 8*). =Mike -- == Michael K. Yee <yee@osf.org> -+- OSF/Motif Team == Open Software Foundation - 11 Cambridge Center - Cambridge, MA 02142 == "Live simply, so that others may simply live."
yee@osf.org (Michael K. Yee) (06/13/91)
In article <YEE.91Jun12150700@pmin7.osf.org> yee@osf.org (Michael K. Yee) writes: > May be an optical mouse with a magnetic base attached to its > mating steel optical mouse pad would be better. Whoops, What I meant to say was "May be an optical mouse with a magnetic base which attached to a steel optical mouse pad would give better control." =Mike -- == Michael K. Yee <yee@osf.org> -+- OSF/Motif Team == Open Software Foundation - 11 Cambridge Center - Cambridge, MA 02142 == "Live simply, so that others may simply live."
jmccombi@bbn.com (Jon McCombie) (06/13/91)
In article <91163.083144CJS@psuvm.psu.edu> CJS@psuvm.psu.edu writes: > ... [regarding trackballs as pointing devices] ... > >It seems to me that it would be nice to reach the ball without moving >your fingers from the home row of the keyboard (unlike most cursor keys >and function keys). I wonder how a location right below the space bar, >reachable by either thumb, would work. Comments? Outbound Systems, Inc. makes a laptop computer which is a "clone" of the Macintosh (it uses the Apple Macintosh ROMs). It is commerically available right now. The Outbound has a pointing device called an (made by?) Isopoint. It is a long narrow bar mounted just below and parallel to the space bar. The bar is slid parallel with the space bar and/or rolled perpendicular to the space bar. Mouse clicks are performed by pressing either side of the Isopoint. The user manipulates the Isopoint with either or both of her thumbs. The user controls Isopoint tracking speed in a manner similar to the software control for mouse tracking speed (a Macintosh "Control Panel" setting). Does it work well? After spending some time getting used to it, I've become rather adept with the Isopoint and I like it. I enjoy being able to "mouse" around the screen without having to move my hands. Others do not like it, and in a big way. It's a matter of taste, I guess. All agree that it takes some getting used to. Jon McCombie Disclaimers: All opinions are personal opinions of the writer only. I have no affiliation with Outbound Systems or with Apple, except as a satisfied customer of both companies.
kanarick@bbn.com (Craig M. Kanarick) (06/13/91)
In article <91163.083144CJS@psuvm.psu.edu> CJS@psuvm.psu.edu writes: >I understand that users of track balls find them superior to mice. >They are now readily available as mice replacements. > >But I would like to see keyboards with track balls built-in. I'll bet >there are some now or rsn. Comments? > >It seems to me that it would be nice to reach the ball without moving >your fingers from the home row of the keyboard (unlike most cursor keys >and function keys). I wonder how a location right below the space bar, >reachable by either thumb, would work. Comments? The portable Mac-compatible made by Outbound Systems has exactly this feature. It isn't exactly a trackball, it is more like a track-bar. It is a small, cylindrical tube recessed in a space-bar shaped key. Rolling the bar moves the cursor up and down, and sliding the bar to the left or right moves the cursor horizontally. Pressing the bar down (and hence, the key in which it is recessed) is like pressing the mouse button. I really like this interface. It only took me about 15 minutes to really get used to it, and once I was, it was hard to go back to a regular mouse. It is amazing how much faster it is to work with a "mouse" without having to move one of my hands off the keyboard. -- cmk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Do I love you? Yes, I Craig M. Kanarick love you. All this talking, kanarick@bbn.com talking, is only bravado..." - The Blue Nile ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mig@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Meir) (06/13/91)
In article <YEE.91Jun12150700@pmin7.osf.org> yee@osf.org (Michael K. Yee) writes: >In article <1991Jun12.181324.12617@den.mmc.com> doehr@magellan.den.mmc.com (Brett B. Doehr) writes: >> They are popular with the >> portable computer industry and also with space applications like >> shuttle and space station. In zero-gravity, a mouse would float >> at the end of its cable, you may accidently click a mouse button >> when grabbing it, etc. > > Yeah, you're right. In zero-gravity, the ball in a mouse would also > float. Why? It seems to me that the entire mouse would float, not the ball by itself. Of course, that would not be a problem if you were using it. The pressure from one's hand would force the mouse against the mouse pad. The real problem is that the astronaut would have to be strapped in, etc. It seems to me that a mouse is inappropriate in space, in an airplane, etc. Keynoards, voice inputs, touch screens, joysticks, and even pens are more appropriate. A usable mouse and trackball COULD probably be made, if one NEEDED them for something. The advantage of voice input, of course, is that with no hands operation, the operator need not be strapped in, or even next to the machine. With voice I/O, one could make a micro-sized computer. The screen and keyboard could be eliminted for many applications. Ever notice that the calculator watches were larger than the other watches...even so, the keys were to small! Eliminate the keyboard and the display, and the entire watch could be as small as the microphone and speaker! BTW, the speaker might be bigger than the display for some devices, such as watches. * * * * * * ====================== Meir Green * * * * * * ====================== (Internet) mig@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu * * * * * * ====================== meir@msb.com mig@asteroids.cs.columbia.edu * * * * * * ====================== (Amateur Radio) N2JPG
edelheit@smiley.uucp (Jeff Edelheit) (06/13/91)
In article <1991Jun12.142307.210@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> klefstad@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Sue Klefstad) writes: >CJS@psuvm.psu.edu writes: > >This is what the 3rd party Mac portable (the Outbounder?) uses. >It's a bar that sits just below that space bar with a button >on each side. Haven't heard raves about it but anything new would >take some getting used to. I have tried the isobar on the Outbound. It's is also on a new MS-DOS notebook computer (but I can't remember which one.) I don't like the isobar. It doesn't track as well as the mouse or the trackball. (BTW, the Outbound offers a mouse as an option). I personally prefer the trackball, but am not sure I'd want it attached to the keyboard. Jeff
edelheit@smiley.uucp (Jeff Edelheit) (06/13/91)
In article <2909@sumax.seattleu.edu> bentson@sumax.seattleu.edu (Randy+Cindy Bentson) writes: > >Christopher (or whoever wants to enlighten me): >Well, I for one am ignorant but intrigued. I have used both >the cursor arrow/hjkl keys and mice, and am curious >about these track balls. How do they work? Will my experience with >them be the - gosh, how to put this into words? - line by line >(like Etch-a-Sketch) movement or a more subltle flowing movement >that puts you where you want to be "instantly" - like mice do? > >The idea of having something on the keyboard is attractive (I >always lose the mouse, or have no reasonable surface to run >it on). What other advantages are there? > >Cindy B. The advantage to the trackball is that you don't keep moving your hand all over your desk, having to pick up the mouse from the mousepad when you gone to the end of the pad, but still need to go further, you don't need to have a mouse pad, etc. I think that the Microspeed ball is a really nice design; it has a big ball and a large palm rest area. It's available for PCs and Macs. Jeff
bmo1@Isis.MsState.Edu (CrayDeath) (06/13/91)
mig@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Meir) writes: >In article <YEE.91Jun12150700@pmin7.osf.org> yee@osf.org (Michael K. Yee) writes: >> Yeah, you're right. In zero-gravity, the ball in a mouse would also >> float. >Why? It seems to me that the entire mouse would float, not the ball by itself. >Of course, that would not be a problem if you were using it. The pressure from >one's hand would force the mouse against the mouse pad. Remember that the mouse ball is smaller than the cavity, and would float around within the cavity, and therefore not necessarily make good contact with the mouse pad, roller sensors, etc. The mouse I have on my desk (a standard Apple Mac mouse) would not work well in a zero-G environment, as I can demonstrate by turning it upside-down. First, the ball drops down completely within the case, so that the bottom (or, now, top) of the muse ball is lower than the bottom (at leat when it's right-side-up) surface of the mouse. Therefore, when the ball is in this position relative to the cavity, it would make no contact with the pad. Also, the ball is now resting against some part of the cavity so that it can't roll like a trak-ball. Of course, these flaws could be corrected for a zero-G mouse, but they would DEFINITELY need to be considered. Also, you have the problem with what the mouse is going to do while you let go to work at the keyboard. With gravity, the mouse stays right where it's supposed to and leaves the pointer alone. In zero-G, the mouse might decide to do some exploring on its own, moving the pointer, and possibly floating somewhere out of reach. -- CrayDeath | "The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm mka Brennan M. O'Keefe | is the Data, and the Data is Life." internet: bmo1@ra.msstate.edu | -- Daniel Keys Moran, _The_Long_Run_
yee@osf.org (Michael K. Yee) (06/13/91)
In article <bmo1.676762027@Isis.MsState.Edu> bmo1@Isis.MsState.Edu (CrayDeath) writes: > Also, you have the problem with what the mouse is going to do while you let go > to work at the keyboard. With gravity, the mouse stays right where it's > supposed to and leaves the pointer alone. In zero-G, the mouse might decide > to do some exploring on its own, moving the pointer, and possibly floating > somewhere out of reach. A mechanical mouse would have all of those problems in zero-G, but an optical mouse would not. There are no mouse balls to float around, and with the help of some magnets, the mouse would stay put (i.e. won't go wandering off 'exploring on its own'). =Mike -- == Michael K. Yee <yee@osf.org> -+- OSF/Motif Team == Open Software Foundation - 11 Cambridge Center - Cambridge, MA 02142 == "Live simply, so that others may simply live."
ariel@mom.intel.com (Ariel Shattan) (06/13/91)
Doug Jones lists the proper size for a trackball to accomplish fluid motion. I've used both track balls and mice, and I've discovered that track balls are very good for positioning, but bad for selecting. I think this is because my hands are small, so that the relationship between my hand motion and the track ball carries my hand relatively farther from the select button. The track ball I used had select buttons on both sides: one to click, and one to click and hold, but it wasn't that easy to remember which button I needed, and clicking and holding the click button (while trying to move the track ball) was really hard for my poor little hand. I've also tried briefly the isopointer on Outbound's Mac portable (mentioned by Sue <mfplgrgl>). I like the location of this pointer: right under the space bar. It's easy to click. But, it definitely leads to an "Etch-a-Sketch" sort of straight line behavior, especially when you're trying to click, hold, and move with one thumb all at the same time. I guess my preference is still arrow/hjkl keys for small motions while typing a document (yes, they're tedious, but they're precise), and mouse for large movements within a text document, and for graphics. When I encounter an application that lets me combine text and graphics without this silly "pick the tool" interface, then I'll worry more about getting a good pointer for both uses. --Ariel Shattan ariel@littlei.intel.com
delise@mikado.dfe.dec.com (Chris DeLise) (06/13/91)
I've had a chance to use the portable Mac trackball - It is placed in a convenient location on the keyboard, and it does work well, but I believe the problem is that the ball is physically too small and it is therefore a greater effort to accurately position the cursor. The large trackballs I've seen attached to a Mac allow the palm of the hand to rest atop the ball, whereas this one tends to be controlled by a couple of fingers. It requires an unusual form of dexterity, much like that needed for finger painting. Although there it requires no less wrist/arm movement than a mouse, I much prefer the larger, standalone trackball to the small keyboard one. Does it belong here, or is there somewhere a newsgroup which already discusses the physiological effects of mice vs. trackballs, including posture and neurological complication such as CTS?
shirley@washington.jsc.nasa.gov (Bill Shirley) (06/13/91)
In article <YEE.91Jun12150700@pmin7.osf.org>, yee@osf.org (Michael K. Yee) writes: |> In article <1991Jun12.181324.12617@den.mmc.com> doehr@magellan.den.mmc.com (Brett B. Doehr) writes: |> > They are popular with the |> > portable computer industry and also with space applications like |> > shuttle and space station. In zero-gravity, a mouse would float |> > at the end of its cable, you may accidently click a mouse button |> > when grabbing it, etc. |> |> Yeah, you're right. In zero-gravity, the ball in a mouse would also |> float. It would not be hard tension the ball not to float (most already are, the "little rollers" touching the ball are on springs.) Just make the springs a little stronger. |> May be an optical mouse with a magnetic base attached to its |> mating steel optical mouse pad would be better. Hmmm... may be I |> should patent it. Not to much of a joke in this pathetic day and age. But be quiet about it, get the pattent, wait around for 10 years 'till everyone's doin' it (it's common sense right, how else would ya do it), get a damn good lawyar (oxymoron?) who'll work on comission, bleed the corporates for all they got! But really, if magnets make me jitter. If you can assure there'll be no loose magnetic media in zero-g (either no floppy drive or an optical) then I'd feel a bit more secure. |> Yeah, that's the ticket! And I'll call it the |> Mighty-Mouse! |> |> And for keyboards, how about a tiny magnetic mouse (about the size |> of a finger) attached to a steel pad the size of the numeric keypad. |> The mouse button would be the size of the mouse, but requires firm |> finger pressure to activate. Hmmm... may be I should patent this |> too, and call it .... Mini-Mouse 8*). twice the $$$ |> |> =Mike |> |> -- |> == Michael K. Yee <yee@osf.org> -+- OSF/Motif Team |> == Open Software Foundation - 11 Cambridge Center - Cambridge, MA 02142 |> == "Live simply, so that others may simply live." -- ____ ____ ____ Bill Shirley / ___| / ___| / ___| bill@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov |_|omputer|_|ciences|_|orporation _______________________________ _ _ _ Opinions expressed are obtained| | |___ ___| | | |___ by a room full of immortal apes| \____| |____/ \____| with unbreakable typewriters. | ~~~~~~~~~~~DISCLAIMER~~~~~~~~~~~
flowers@osf.org (Ken Flowers) (06/13/91)
In article <YEE.91Jun12181122@pmin7.osf.org>, yee@osf.org (Michael K. Yee) writes: |> |> In article <bmo1.676762027@Isis.MsState.Edu> bmo1@Isis.MsState.Edu (CrayDeath) writes: |> > Also, you have the problem with what the mouse is going to do while you let go |> > to work at the keyboard. With gravity, the mouse stays right where it's |> > supposed to and leaves the pointer alone. In zero-G, the mouse might decide |> > to do some exploring on its own, moving the pointer, and possibly floating |> > somewhere out of reach. |> |> A mechanical mouse would have all of those problems in zero-G, but an |> optical mouse would not. There are no mouse balls to float around, |> and with the help of some magnets, the mouse would stay put (i.e. |> won't go wandering off 'exploring on its own'). |> |> =Mike Hi Mike, (I work in the office right next to him) Some random musings from a ME. First, it would be very simple to put a spring loaded follower wheel to force the mouse ball into contact with the rollers in the mouse. The spring constant could even be set to match the feel of earth gravity. Second, magnets next to your computer...shame on you. Oops, the mouse got loose and is bumping into the guidance computer. How about using something like a modified graphics tablet. Sort of a reverse pen plotter. The mouse slides freely on two posts, constrained in an area that represents the screen real estate. Of course, you loose the ability to accelerate the pointer, but there are always trade offs. | ------------------------- | | | | | | | | | -|--------------O--------|- | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ------------------------- | Ken Flowers
juul@diku.dk (Anders Juul Munch) (06/13/91)
CJS@psuvm.psu.edu writes:
CJS>I understand that users of track balls find them superior to mice.
CJS>They are now readily available as mice replacements.
CJS>But I would like to see keyboards with track balls built-in. I'll bet
CJS>there are some now or rsn. Comments?
CJS>It seems to me that it would be nice to reach the ball without moving
CJS>your fingers from the home row of the keyboard (unlike most cursor keys
CJS>and function keys). I wonder how a location right below the space bar,
CJS>reachable by either thumb, would work. Comments?
How about *replacing* half the space bar with a trackball.
The space bar would then be available to one thumb only, but that's all
you need, isn't it? If you usually operate the space bar on the side which
gets replaced by a trackball, it would take some getting used to, of course.
But that shouldn't be too difficult. Or perhaps accidentally moving the
trackball would be a problem, as it would be difficult to get the thumb
operating the trackball out of the way?
How about it?
-- Anders Munchxiaoy@ecf.toronto.edu (XIAO Yan) (06/13/91)
Mapping keyboard key position onto the screen should also be an option for a pointing device: 1) some key combination to toggle between usual keyboard input and pointing input; 2) duration of pressing keys as indication of zero order input (as in touch screen -- mapping key location onto screen) or first order input (as in trackball -- moving cursor relatively) Hey this may be done softwarely and any late night programmers hear this? Xiao
mig@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Meir) (06/14/91)
In article <1991Jun12.211919.12789@linus.mitre.org> edelheit@smiley.uucp (Jeff Edelheit) writes: >In article <2909@sumax.seattleu.edu> bentson@sumax.seattleu.edu (Randy+Cindy Bentson) writes: >> >>Christopher (or whoever wants to enlighten me): >>Well, I for one am ignorant but intrigued. I have used both >>the cursor arrow/hjkl keys and mice, and am curious >>about these track balls. How do they work? Will my experience with >>them be the - gosh, how to put this into words? - line by line >>(like Etch-a-Sketch) movement or a more subltle flowing movement >>that puts you where you want to be "instantly" - like mice do? >> >>The idea of having something on the keyboard is attractive (I >>always lose the mouse, or have no reasonable surface to run >>it on). What other advantages are there? >> >>Cindy B. > >The advantage to the trackball is that you don't keep moving your hand >all over your desk, having to pick up the mouse from the mousepad when >you gone to the end of the pad, but still need to go further, you >don't need to have a mouse pad, etc. Many people never use a mouse pad (I prefer it). This largely depends upon the specific mouse and the work surface. I never have to pick up and move the mouse as you describe. Why don't you just set the speed on fast or the sensitivity on low? This is just fine for all but extremely delicate graphics editing. In that case, you might be better off with an optical mouse, anyway. * * * * * * ====================== Meir Green * * * * * * ====================== (Internet) mig@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu * * * * * * ====================== meir@msb.com mig@asteroids.cs.columbia.edu * * * * * * ====================== (Amateur Radio) N2JPG
warsaw@nlm.nih.gov (Barry A. Warsaw) (06/14/91)
>>>>> On 12 Jun 91 12:31:44 GMT, CJS@psuvm.psu.edu said: CJS> I understand that users of track balls find them superior to CJS> mice. They are now readily available as mice replacements. >>>>> "Bevan" == Bevan R S Wang <spinner@wpi.WPI.EDU> writes: Bevan> Gads, track balls superior! I for one find track balls Bevan> not as accurate as to a mouse. Also there seems to be Bevan> less "fluid-motion" in a track ball rather than a Bevan> mouse. I have a trackball from Evergreen systems on my Sun SS1+ which I like very much. I find it highly superior to the standard Sun mouse for positioning. I don't have much desk real estate and rarely have use for a mouse anyway, preferring the keybindings I've set up for window traversal, etc. The few times I need a "mouse" (e.g., for menu interactions, window movements or resizes, graphics), I find the trackball positioning at least as easy if not easier than with a mouse, since 1. I don't have to worry about 2 orientations -- the optical mouse with the underlying pad, and the pad/mouse to screen directional orientation; and 2. continually picking up the mouse when I reach the side of the pad. Also, for large screen distances, the trackball is great. One quick spin and my cursor goes exactly where I want it. I'm *much* faster now (with a little practice) at cursor absolute positioning with my trackball. The trackball I've got has 4 buttons -- 3 for the standard Sun mouse buttons and a 4th for a hold button(*). This is an essential feature, though IMO *slightly* mis-designed on the Evergreen. Say I want to popup a menu on the (standard) right mouse button, do some pull-rights and eventually select an item. I can click the 3rd and 4th button on the trackball (chord) and its just as if I'm holding down the mouse button. The problem (and bad design) is that I must click the 3rd button (or whatever "mouse" equivalent button I've clicked) to release. However, sometimes its difficult to remember just what button I pressed! For example, on my X root window, I pop up menus for all 3 buttons. Am I holding on the third button or first button? I *know* that I've pressed the hold button, so I would like to see clicking on the hold button itself release the hold. Alas this trackball doesn't grant me that. (as a sidenote, does anyone know of other good trackballs for the Sun that may do this?) Just a thought for all you trackball designers out there :-). -Barry (*) actually the hold button is programmable to be the leftmost or rightmost of the 4 buttons, with the other 3 mapping onto the standard 3 button mouse. This is another nice feature.
v056ped5@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Brian M McNamara) (06/14/91)
As defined in my Ergo text book...a trackball is categorized as "Other Cursor Pointing Devices", "good pointing device but not well suited for drawing." Essentially it is an inverted mouse. Instead of rolling the mouse along the table, you move the ball in a stationary frame. Everyone must have played Missile Command at one time. That was a trackball :-). There is only one real advantage I can see. You don't tie up your desk space with a mouse pad and everything else. Many disadvantages to adopting a trackball over a mouse have been discussed but what about the applications which require holding one or two keyboard keys, one or two mouse keys, and moving the mouse. This doesn't seem quite possible if everything is on the keyboard. Brian
sanders@parc.xerox.com (Rex Sanders) (06/15/91)
Now that we've seen dozens of messages on the "superiority" of mice/trackballs/ isopoints/whatever, does anyone see a pattern? Different people like different input devices. I suspect that "best" for a large population will be like taking the mean of a multi-modal distribution - a nice, handy, meaningless number. If *you* are designing a system that needs a pointing device, pick something (almost anything :-), but allow users to attach their favorite device through a well-specified interface - serial port, ADB, HIL, ... Gosh, you could even offer *options* to users - what a radical concept! -- Rex sanders@parc.xerox.com
martin@adpplz.UUCP (Martin Golding) (06/15/91)
In <1991Jun13.142018.17792@ecf.toronto.edu> xiaoy@ecf.toronto.edu (XIAO Yan) writes: >Mapping keyboard key position onto the screen should also be an option >for a pointing device: There is patented, and should be available VSN (Very Soon Now) a keyboard that uses the j key as the pointer device. The left hand toggles the use of the key and handles mousebuttonlike activities, and force sensors in the j key do the pointing. I have no idea whether this is a good idea or not, but I liked it... Martin Golding | My opinions, mine, mine mine oh what the heck... Dod #0236 | here, you have them too. {mcspdx,pdxgate}!adpplz!martin or martin@adpplz.uucp
amarkel@encore.com (Arieh Markel) (06/17/91)
From article <91163.083144CJS@psuvm.psu.edu>, by CJS@psuvm.psu.edu: > I understand that users of track balls find them superior to mice. > They are now readily available as mice replacements. > > But I would like to see keyboards with track balls built-in. I'll bet > there are some now or rsn. Comments? > Coming back from a trip this week, a person on the plane was working on a portable Mac with a built in track ball on the right hand side of the keyboard. It looked like a very good solution for working in a cramped space such as a tray in an coach class airplane seat. Arieh. -- Arieh Markel Tel: (305)-797-5760 Encore Computer Corporation amarkel@encore.COM Optimizer & Instruction Scheduler uunet!gould!amarkel Group - Ft. Lauderdale, Fl