gorman@acsu.buffalo.edu (anne-marie k gorman) (06/19/91)
In article <1991Jun17.062203.1381@sq.sq.com> msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader) writes > >However, I'm particularly annoyed by a machine installed a few months >ago in my bank branch. (Royal Bank of Canada, Yonge/Eglinton branch). My bank (Citibank NYS) has several different styles of ATM, and non of them does it right! (Though none of them quite matches the imbecility of the one Mark described, either.) For starters, the slot into which you insert your card projects out from the surface of the machine, and since the machine surface is tilted with respect to the floor, the diagram showing you which direction the card goes in is very ambiguous. I haven't explained that very clearly; the problem is that you look straight at the diagram of the card, but it's not clear whether this is the view from below the slot or from above the slot. The tilt of the screen on one of the styles of machine makes for parallax between the arrows on the screen and the buttons they're suposed to point to; depending on the angle you see it from (i.e. on how tall you are, since nothing adjusts), the arrows may appear to be pointing to nothing or to the wrong button. You have to push your card in, then pull it out. If you do it too quickly *or* too slowly, the machine won't read it. Every other ATM I've ever seen just holds on to your card till you're done. Why does Citibank have to be different? Half the time my hands are full of envelope, deposit slip, etc. anyway. Why not just put the card away, you say? Because... Worst of all, you have to insert (and pull out) your card more than once in the course of doing your business! If you want to do more than one operation, in the middle of a transaction the machine will ask you for the card again and then for your PIN. Anne-Marie
jtchew@csa2.lbl.gov (JOSEPH T CHEW) (06/19/91)
{Description of Satan's own ATM deleted}
I'm surprised at the requirement to insert your card and enter your PIN
multiple times. Eats processor and datacomm time, eh?
Where I live, Safeway and Lucky (two supermart chains) have installed
different kinds of point-of-sale card readers. The more amusing of
the two offers _no_ clue of any kind as to which way to orient the card
or which direction to swipe it, although it _does_ care about both.
It also has "eraser" keys that only a kung fu disciple can actuate
on the first try every time.
Their competitor has much better user human factors, but also requires
the checker's intervention at a second keyboard on the other side.
It's enough to make the most dedicated cyberphile pay in cash.
--Joe
"Just another personal opinion from the People's Republic of Berkeley"avr@cbnewsj.att.com (adam.v.reed) (06/20/91)
In article <14450@dog.ee.lbl.gov>, jtchew@csa2.lbl.gov (JOSEPH T CHEW) writes: > {Description of Satan's own ATM deleted} > I'm surprised at the requirement to insert your card and enter your PIN > multiple times. Eats processor and datacomm time, eh? Remember, the CITIBANK ATM comes from an NYC bank. The requirement to re-insert the card and re-enter the PIN before certain transactions is a reasonable feature in a crime-ridden environment. Typical scenario without this feature: criminal enters ATM room; user runs to safety; criminal withdraws cash. Adam_V_Reed@ATT.com
jtchew@csa2.lbl.gov (JOSEPH T CHEW) (06/20/91)
>Remember, the CITIBANK ATM comes from an NYC bank. The >requirement to re-insert the card and re-enter the PIN before >certain transactions is a reasonable feature in a crime-ridden >environment. Typical scenario without this feature: criminal >enters ATM room; user runs to safety; criminal withdraws cash. So how about a PANIC button for those decaying neighborhoods? User presses PANIC button; ATM swallows everything not yet delivered, cancels transaction if appropriate, drops its protective screen, activates video camera, floodlights, and alarm bell, and calls police. To reduce pranks and false alarms, the more alarming features would be enabled by card insertion and deactivated 15 seconds after the end of transaction (as indicated by removal of card or money, whichever comes first). Five minutes of floodlights and videotaping could be made always available. Of course, there ARE neighborhoods where dispensing a small handgun with the money would be the only effective technique. :) --Joe "Just another personal opinion from the People's Republic of Berkeley"
ccrowley@ohmeda.com (Chris Crowley) (06/20/91)
The yucky-est thing about the ATM machines is that some ask: "are you done with your transaction?" and some ask: "do you have other transactions?" Thus, you will be guaranteed to always answer with the wrong! "yes" or "no" . :wq
barmar@think.com (Barry Margolin) (06/20/91)
In article <1991Jun19.233836.19040@ohmeda.com> ccrowley@ohmeda.com (Chris Crowley) writes: >The yucky-est thing about the ATM machines is that some ask: >"are you done with your transaction?" >and some ask: >"do you have other transactions?" My ATM (BayBank, in Massachusetts) is generally pretty good (IMHO), except for this part. It asks: Do you want another transaction? and then offers three choices: Yes, I want another transaction. No, please return card and a receipt. Yes, please return card and a receipt with account balances. I like the third option of getting the account balances included on the receipt, but the "Yes" confused me quite a bit for a while. Internally, it involves a transaction (the ATM has to query the bank computer), but it ends the user's session just like the second option. What confuses me more about it is that the ATM used to preface the third option with "No", and they *changed* it at some point. This implies that someone made a conscious decision that "Yes" is better than "No" for this choice, and it wasn't just an inadvertant error. -- Barry Margolin, Thinking Machines Corp. barmar@think.com {uunet,harvard}!think!barmar
brsmith@cs.umn.edu (Brian R. Smith) (06/20/91)
In <1991Jun20.042048.2749@Think.COM> barmar@think.com (Barry Margolin) writes: > Yes, I want another transaction. > No, please return card and a receipt. > Yes, please return card and a receipt with account balances. >What confuses me more about it is that the ATM used to preface the third >option with "No", and they *changed* it at some point. This implies that >someone made a conscious decision that "Yes" is better than "No" for this >choice, and it wasn't just an inadvertant error. Probably because at SOME financial institutions (I.E. My old credit onion) a "transaction" means a $0.75 charge. Doesn't matter what transaction. You wouldn't want to imply that getting a balance was not a transaction (I.E. free). -- Brian brsmith@cs.umn.edu
mig@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Meir) (06/21/91)
In article <1991Jun19.233836.19040@ohmeda.com> ccrowley@ohmeda.com (Chris Crowley) writes: > >The yucky-est thing about the ATM machines is that some ask: >"are you done with your transaction?" He/she obviously IS. >and some ask: >"do you have other transactions?" This is the correct question: Make another transaction (Y/N)? If the user isn't finished with the 1st transaction, then how could he make another? * * * * * * ====================== Meir Green * * * * * * ====================== (Internet) mig@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu * * * * * * ====================== meir@msb.com mig@asteroids.cs.columbia.edu * * * * * * ====================== (Amateur Radio) N2JPG
mig@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Meir I Green) (06/21/91)
In article <1991Jun20.162302.4311@cs.umn.edu> brsmith@cs.umn.edu (Brian R. Smith) writes: >Probably because at SOME financial institutions (I.E. My old credit >onion) a "transaction" means a $0.75 charge. Doesn't matter what >transaction. You wouldn't want to imply that getting a balance was >not a transaction (I.E. free). It seems to me that there is no reason to require so many screens. Wouldn't it be simpler to make the first or last option be QUIT/END and include this in 1 complete menu? The approach of multiple screens is like playing animal with only a few entries. One menu is more appropriate than nested menus. The user ends up having to decide more than with the integrated menu alone. ie: DONE, Return my card. Cash withdrawal Deposit Then, if the user presses the first button, the ATM could ask if he would like the balance printed on the receipt (my thought is this is not a good idea, anyway). For 2nd and third, just ask the amounts... Then say ok, and return to the main menu. * * * * * * ====================== Meir Green * * * * * * ====================== (Internet) mig@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu * * * * * * ====================== meir@msb.com mig@asteroids.cs.columbia.edu * * * * * * ====================== (Amateur Radio) N2JPG
msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader) (06/21/91)
I wrote: > However, I'm particularly annoyed by a machine installed a few months > ago in my bank branch. (Royal Bank of Canada, Yonge/Eglinton branch). Now that I think of it, this machine has a second notably bad piece of design in addition to the enabled-then-disabled numeric keypad that I posted about before. In all ATMs that I can remember using, the way to signal "no more transactions" is to remove your card -- and this is sensible, because it helps prevent you from leaving it behind. Extra care is taken when you're withdrawing cash, this being the only transaction type where you walk away from the machine with something other than a transaction record slip: you are required to choose whether there will be another transaction (or sometimes simply required to remove your card) before the cash is dispensed. On the passbook updating machine, however, there is no such requirement, and you *always* walk away with something in your hand, i.e. the passbook. It's easy to forget your card. They recognized this by adding reminder displays to the screen, but this is at best a workaround. What they should have done, of course, was to have the machine hold your passbook until you remove your card. (It doesn't turn pages, of course, so it has to return the passbook to you in that case; but before doing so it could display a warning on the screen and require you to confirm your understanding by touching.) -- Mark Brader "Do UNIX users ever think about the fact that most SoftQuad Inc. of their financial dealings are processed in Toronto languages that they wouldn't be caught dead in?" utzoo!sq!msb, msb@sq.com -- Carol Osterbrock This article is in the public domain.
dickw@cnps.philips.nl (Dick Wiersma) (06/21/91)
I hear a lot of these ATM's lately in this newsgroup.
Since I'm only familiar with 'cash-dispensers' here in the Netherlands I'm
curious of what you can do with them, if people 'like' them (the user interface
that is), etc.
In short:
- What can you do with them
- How complex are the user interfaces (are they easy to use? how many
different menu's, etc.)
- Do they charge you for such transactions?
- What would you REALLY like to do with them
- Where do you find such ATM's (near banks, in shopping centres, ...?)
As I 'listen' to this discussion I get the impression there are a lot of
real end-users of these ATM's so ... this is your chance to relief your
heart!
Thanks for your reactions.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Dick Wiersma | Ned. Philips Bedrijven B.V. | dickw@cnps.philips.nl
Philips C&P services | Postbus 218 | Tel.: (040-7)32354
VA-23 | 5600 MD Eindhoven | Fax.: (040-7)35940kan@bugs-bunny.rtp.dg.com (Victor Kan) (06/22/91)
>>>>> On 21 Jun 91 11:05:15 GMT, dickw@cnps.philips.nl (Dick Wiersma) said: Dick> In short: Dick> - What can you do with them This varies from bank to bank, but the name Automated Teller Machine is a good description of the services (I wonder if in _Total_Recall_, they had Johnny Tellers as well as Johnny Cab Drivers :-). I can make deposits, make cash withdrawals, transfer money between accounts (some banks even offer payments for credit cards, loans (typically if it's with that bank), utilities, etc.), get traveler's checks (I've only seen this at Citibank ATMs in New York City), check account balances and get cash advances from your credit card account (not necessarily with that bank). What you typically can't do is cash a check, although depositing one followed by a withdrawal is almost the same thing if you have the balance to cover it, or are allowed to be overdrawn (often referred to as a credit/money line service). Dick> - How complex are the user interfaces (are they easy to use? how many Dick> different menu's, etc.) Most machines I've used have a screen that shows various button activated menus (or virtual buttons in the case of Citibank's touch screens). One local bank's ATMs actually have physical buttons for most of the options (i.e. there's a row of buttons in the accounts area, listing checking, savings, credit card, etc.). One of the problems with having a CRT pointing to physical buttons is that the CRT loses alignment after a while and you don't know whether you're answering Yes or No. ATMs with generic physical buttons that I've seen typically have four or five buttons lined up vertically. The smart thing would be to have the live buttons light up (as in the old Citibank ATMs), or to make Yes/No responses use buttons on opposite ends. The interfaces are simple enough that I have never had trouble using the varied ATMs from different banks which are on a common network, allowing interbank withdrawals/balance queries. My experience is that the other, more logistically complex services, e.g. deposits and interaccount transfers, don't work across different banks. Dick> - Do they charge you for such transactions? Most banks do charge per transaction, on the order of 25-50 cents. However, they usually waive the fees on accounts maintaining a certain minimum balance, or have direct deposit for paychecks, or other special deals. Dick> - What would you REALLY like to do with them I usually just get cash. Back in NYC where teller lines are always busy, depositing checks at ATMs was convenient (especially at Columbia! There are about a dozen Citibank ATMs on Broadway near campus, more than all the other nearby NYCE networked banks combined, at least when I was there). But here in NC, there are almost never lines, so I don't bother stuffing the special envelop. I just use a human teller. Dick> - Where do you find such ATM's (near banks, in shopping centres, ...?) They're in banks, supermarkets, shopping malls and in the cafeteria here at work. -- | Victor Kan | I speak only for myself. | *** | Data General Corporation | Edo emacibus, ergo sum. | **** | 62 T.W. Alexander Drive | Columbia Lions Win, 8 October 1988 for | **** %%%% | RTP, NC 27709 | a record of 1-44. Way to go, Lions! | *** %%%
gorman@acsu.buffalo.edu (anne-marie k gorman) (06/24/91)
In article <1991Jun19.190746.2831@cbnewsj.att.com> avr@cbnewsj.att.com (adam.v.reed) writes: >In article <14450@dog.ee.lbl.gov>, jtchew@csa2.lbl.gov (JOSEPH T CHEW) writes: >> {Description of Satan's own ATM deleted} >> I'm surprised at the requirement to insert your card and enter your PIN >> multiple times. Eats processor and datacomm time, eh? > >Remember, the CITIBANK ATM comes from an NYC bank. The [Good anti-crime argument deleted] Yeah, but Citibank operates all over NY state. I (the poster of the description of Satan's own ATM) live in Buffalo, for heaven's sake! If we're gonna talk about adaptive user interfaces, here's one adaptation crying out to be made! :-) Anne-Marie
shirley@washington.jsc.nasa.gov (Bill Shirley) (06/24/91)
My additions:
1) I press fast cash $50. I want the money and I want to leave! The machine
whirs and then gives me my money.
Machine: Do you want another transaction?
Me (is it just me): of course not you idiot!!!
2) Monday: Enter your amount: 30.00 ---->> gives me 30.00 dollars
Tuesday: Enter you amount: 30.00 whing, whing ,purr, whine,
ILLEGAL TRANSACTION
is the machine not smart enough to figure out it has no $10 bills and
tell me to use an increment of 20?
3) (A different machine)
Enter your amount in increments of $20:
30.00 (just for fun)
------------> gives me $30
(and that fun entertainment only cost me a buck!)
-- the meek (user interfaces) shall inherit the earth
____ ____ ____ Bill Shirley
/ ___| / ___| / ___| bill@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov
|_|omputer|_|ciences|_|orporation _______________________________
_ _ _ Opinions expressed are obtained|
| |___ ___| | | |___ by a room full of immortal apes|
\____| |____/ \____| with unbreakable typewriters. |
~~~~~~~~~~~DISCLAIMER~~~~~~~~~~~hollombe@ttidca.TTI.COM (The Polymath) (06/26/91)
In article <1991Jun20.215350.18623@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> mig@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Meir I Green) writes: }It seems to me that there is no reason to require so many screens. Wouldn't it }be simpler to make the first or last option be QUIT/END and include this in 1 }complete menu? ... }... One menu is more appropriate than nested menus. The user }ends up having to decide more than with the integrated menu alone. } }ie: } }DONE, Return my card. } }Cash withdrawal } }Deposit } But modern ATMs offer many more services than these. They can transfer money between accounts and display balances, at least. Some can give much more account information. They can take deposits to multiple accounts or loan/credit line payments. You can't put all that on one screen. -- The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@ttidca.tti.com) Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp Turn the rascals out! 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. (213) 450-9111, x2483 No incumbents in '92! Santa Monica, CA 90405 {rutgers|pyramid|philabs|psivax}!ttidca!hollombe
frazier@excel.TTI.COM (kent Frazier) (06/26/91)
In article <80373@eerie.acsu.Buffalo.EDU>: gorman@acsu.buffalo.edu (anne-marie k gorman) writes >My bank (Citibank NYS) has several different styles of ATM, and none of them >does it right! (Though none of them quite matches the imbecility of the one >Mark described, either.) There are some new ones that hopefully have corrected some of your complaints. But I don't know if they've made it to upstate New York yet. >For starters, the slot into which you insert your card projects out from the >surface of the machine, and since the machine surface is tilted with respect >to the floor, the diagram showing you which direction the card goes in is >very ambiguous. I haven't explained that very clearly; the problem is that >you look straight at the diagram of the card, but it's not clear whether >this is the view from below the slot or from above the slot. Good comment (now prominently posted on our central bulletin board). We are making significant changes in the card reader design (mostly to accomodate mag-stripe (which Citibank hasn't used 'til recently). >The tilt of the screen on one of the styles of machine makes for parallax >between the arrows on the screen and the buttons they're suposed to point >to; depending on the angle you see it from (i.e. on how tall you are, >since nothing adjusts), the arrows may appear to be pointing to nothing >or to the wrong button. The new atms don't have physical buttons anymore. >You have to push your card in, then pull it out. If you do it too quickly >*or* too slowly, the machine won't read it. Every other ATM I've ever seen >just holds on to your card till you're done. Why does Citibank have to >be different? Half the time my hands are full of envelope, deposit slip, >etc. anyway. Why not just put the card away, you say? Because... One of the major problems that (generic) ATM users have is that they often walk off and leave their cards in the ATM. Citibank attempted to solve this by never taking your card from you. Some people get very nervous when ATM machines eat their cards (will it really give it back at the end??). Card reader technology is improving, and the newer ones should solve the problems of having to do it "just right". >Worst of all, you have to insert (and pull out) your card more than once >in the course of doing your business! If you want to do more than one >operation, in the middle of a transaction the machine will ask you for the >card again and then for your PIN. Again, if you walk off from a (generic) ATM leaving your card, and not having properly logged off, the next person in line has full access to your account. To ensure that this isn't happening, we ask for intermediate validations along the way. Admittedly it's an inconvenience (and there are probably better ways to accomplish the same thing... I'll have to think about that...) >Anne-Marie Kent Frazier - I speak for Citicorp in no official capacity, and am not an expert on our ATMs (though I can find people who are) . . . .
hollombe@ttidca.TTI.COM (The Polymath) (06/27/91)
In article <80918@eerie.acsu.Buffalo.EDU> gorman@acsu.buffalo.edu (anne-marie k gorman) writes: }In article <1991Jun19.190746.2831@cbnewsj.att.com> avr@cbnewsj.att.com (adam.v.reed) writes: }>In article <14450@dog.ee.lbl.gov>, jtchew@csa2.lbl.gov (JOSEPH T CHEW) writes: }>> {Description of Satan's own ATM deleted} }>> I'm surprised at the requirement to insert your card and enter your PIN }>> multiple times. Eats processor and datacomm time, eh? }> }>Remember, the CITIBANK ATM comes from an NYC bank. The }[Good anti-crime argument deleted] } }Yeah, but Citibank operates all over NY state. I (the poster of the }description of Satan's own ATM) live in Buffalo, for heaven's sake! }If we're gonna talk about adaptive user interfaces, here's one adaptation }crying out to be made! :-) Then you'll be happy to hear that Citibank is moving away from the multiple card dip requirement. For security you'll still have to re-enter your PIN, but the card fumbling will be reduced. (This also eliminates one of my headaches. One of the qualifications my robots had to meet was the ability to dip a card within a seven second time out). -- The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@ttidca.tti.com) Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp Turn the rascals out! 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. (213) 450-9111, x2483 No incumbents in '92! Santa Monica, CA 90405 {rutgers|pyramid|philabs|psivax}!ttidca!hollombe
hollombe@ttidca.TTI.COM (The Polymath) (06/27/91)
In article <27204@ttidca.TTI.COM> frazier@excel.TTI.COM (kent Frazier) writes: }In article <80373@eerie.acsu.Buffalo.EDU>: gorman@acsu.buffalo.edu } (anne-marie k gorman) writes } }>The tilt of the screen on one of the styles of machine makes for parallax }>between the arrows on the screen and the buttons they're suposed to point }>to ... } The new atms don't have physical buttons anymore. In fact, I didn't think any of the old ones, with physical buttons, were still in service. I was assured the last one died last year, in Puerto Rico, when a pipe broke and flooded it. They'd better replace them soon if they're still out there. We already celebrated by burning the last software listings. (-: }... Some people get very nervous when ATM }machines eat their cards (will it really give it back at the end??). ... I was told this was the main reason Citibank went with the dip reader technology. Also remember, Citibank pioneered ATM technology in the United States. When they designed their first machines mag stripe cards weren't all that common, ATMs were practically unheard of, and they decided to go with a different, proprietary and (in our opinion) superior card technology. Times have changed. We're changing with them. }>Worst of all, you have to insert (and pull out) your card more than once }>in the course of doing your business! ... }[ security explanation deleted ] }... Admittedly it's an inconvenience (and there are probably better ways }to accomplish the same thing... I'll have to think about that...) See my previous post. The multiple dip requirement is going away. (N.B.: It takes a while for a new software release to make its way out to the real world. Don't expect this tomorrow, or even this year, but it's coming). }Kent Frazier - I speak for Citicorp in no official capacity, and am not an }expert on our ATMs (though I can find people who are) Likewise, I don't speak for Citicorp (they don't listen to me, either), but I do work with our ATMs. -- The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@ttidca.tti.com) Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp Turn the rascals out! 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. (213) 450-9111, x2483 No incumbents in '92! Santa Monica, CA 90405 {rutgers|pyramid|philabs|psivax}!ttidca!hollombe