880139h@aucs.AcadiaU.ca (Rob Hutten) (06/26/91)
Hi, sorry if this topic has been convered before, or if this is an inappropriate newsgroup, but: Have any of you had experience with getting either carpal tunnel syndrome or ulnar nerve entrapment from using computers on a regular basis? I'm starting physiotherapy tonight for UNE, and my brother had his wrist in a brace for a couple months with CTS. We're both programmers and we've been told that both problems were caused by the rigid position in which we hold our hands. My brother's CTS was relieved with the brace and the use of a trackball instead of a mouse (he does Macintosh support), so I was wondering if there were products available such as special keyboard holders, etc. which could help out my UNE. If you're unfamiliar with UNE, it's caused by the ulnar nerve (the one that smarts when you bang your funny bone) being pinched by the elbow joint. At least that's what I understand from one visit to a general practitioner... Email response is preferred, but I do read this group. I'll summarize if there is any response. Thanks. -Rob -- \-----------------------------------------------------------------------------/ | Rob Hutten 880139h@acadiau.ca 880139h@ace.acadiau.ca hutten@agcrr.bio.ns.ca | | CS student, geek, and g'dar player for MC FTP and the Zydeco Funkmasters. | /-----------------------------------------------------------------------------\
Dan_Jacobson@ATT.COM (06/26/91)
>>>>> "Rob" == Rob Hutten <880139h@aucs.acadiau.ca> writes: Rob> so I was wondering if there were products available such as Rob> special keyboard holders, etc. which could help out my UNE. This is all the info I have for you. "Carpal Tunnel Syndrome (fwd)" (???) "Re: [forwarded] Carpal Tunnel Syndrome (fwd)" (Sean Malloy) ------- Start of digest ------- Subject: Carpal Tunnel Syndrome (fwd) Date: 01-Mar-91 18:06 From: Christopher.Colby@F.GP.CS.CMU.EDU A friend from M.I.T. just sent me a copy of a memo that has been going around there. Those of you who know nothing of Carpal Tunnel Syndrome should definitely read this. Those of you who have heard of it might want to read it anyway, as it includes some helpful hints for prevention. (Background information: 6.170 is an undergraduate software engineering lab at M.I.T.) -chris ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message has very little to do with 6.170, but since you will all be doing intense ammounts of typing this term and probably in the future, you should know about Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. I apologize to all those who already know about this. Carpal Tunnel Syndrome is an advanced form of Forearm Overuse Syndrome and tendonitis in the wrists. Basically, the bones in your wrist form a 3-sided tunnel (called the Carpal Tunnel). Your tendons, blood vessels and nerves pass through this tunnel. If your tendons swell up too much, it can pinch your blood vessels and nerves, causing numbness in the fingers. If it is ignored, permanent damage can occur. Even if it doesn't advance to the numbness stage, it is extremely painful and can render your hands pretty useless. In the past, mostly factory workers were the victims of this type of injury, which is caused by repetitive motion (aka Reptitive Motion Syndrome.) However, most cases now are related to computer use. I developed this infliction last year when i was taking 6.170. I developed pain in my wrists, that sometimes ran from my fingers all the way to my elbow. I was stupid and ignored it, thinking it would go away as soon as the class was over and i got to take a rest from typing. I rested it 3 weeks and it seemed fine until i started typing again at my job. The pain got worse and worse until i could barely write, or even tie my shoes. Then one day i woke up and i couldn't feel the tips of my fingers. I ran to the med center. I had both my hands in casts, and then splints for the remainder of the summer. Even though I've taken almost 6 mos. of rest from typing, i still experience severe pain whenever i type. (Not good news for a 6-3). Almost a year later, I am taking strong anti-inflamatory medication and pain killers (equal to 7 Advil) everyday. I am in physical therapy 3 times a week getting ultrasound treatment, and i ice my wrists all the time. My orthropedic doctor has diagnosed it as chronic, although we are trying everything to correct it, possibly even surgery. Basically, I'm trying to say that this is VERY SERIOUS. It can really interfere with your career... And it CAN HAPPEN TO YOU!!! My doctor says he currently has 15 cases of students with chronic variations of Forearm Overuse Syndrome. I probably got this because I typed wrong. Do the following to avoid developing CTS/Tendonitis: 1) Keep your wrists UP while typing. DO NOT PUT YOUR WRISTS ON THE TABLE!!! It might seem uncomfortable at first, but you'll get used to it. KEEP YOUR WRISTS UP! KEEP YOUR WRISTS UP! This is VERY important. 2) If you feel your wrists might need support in the "up" position, put a pillow under them or something. 3) Make sure you are using the Shift Keys properly. Do not hit the shift key with the same hand you hit the other key. 4) Try switching your mouse to the left side now and then if you are a righty, and viceversa for lefties. There are lefty configured workstations in 38-344. 5) Make sure that the key board is low enough. It should not be too high, so that you would have the temptation to rest your forearm on the table. If the keyboard is too high (as it often is in Athena clusters) put the key board in your lap. Good posture while typing can make an amazing difference. 6) If you experience any pain, ice it and Go to the Med Center. 7) If it hurts too much to type, for God's sake, give your hands a rest. I worked through it last year, and I got a good grade in 6.170, but i'm not sure if that good grade was worth screwing up my hands for possibly the rest of my life (not very optimistic, i know.) I'm currently looking into Law School since I don't know what else I'd be able to do if I can't get rid of this... :) Party On and Keep your Wrists Up, [name withheld] ---------- ------------------------------ From: malloy@nprdc.navy.mil (Sean Malloy) To: Dan_Jacobson@ihlpz.ATT.COM Subject: Re: [forwarded] Carpal Tunnel Syndrome (fwd) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1991 12:24:50 PDT Here's a message I saved from a while ago that also addresses CTS: - -- random sig #80: Sean Malloy | SCCS, the source motel -- Navy Personnel Research & Development Center | programs check in, but they San Diego, CA 92152-6800 | don't check out. malloy@nprdc.navy.mil | - ----8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<---- >From risks-request@caesar.pica.army.mil Fri Jun 29 15:37:49 1990 Return-Path: <risks-request@caesar.pica.army.mil> Received: from aegean.nprdc.navy.mil by pacific.nprdc.navy.mil (5.59/SMI-4.0) id AA21859; Fri, 29 Jun 90 15:37:42 PDT Received: from [192.12.8.200] by nprdc.navy.mil (5.59/SMI-4.0) id AA25200; Fri, 29 Jun 90 15:36:49 PDT Received: from CAESAR.PICA.ARMY.MIL by CAESAR.PICA.ARMY.MIL id aa05863; 29 Jun 90 16:20 EDT Date: Fri, 29 Jun 90 16:18:35 EDT From: Milnet Risks Lists <risks-request@PICA.ARMY.MIL> To: list:;@caesar.pica.army.mil@nprdc.navy.mil Subject: RISKS DIGEST 10.12 Message-Id: <9006291618.aa05855@CAESAR.PICA.ARMY.MIL> Status: OR RISKS-LIST: RISKS-FORUM Digest Wednesday 27 June 1990 Volume 10 : Issue 12 Contents: <deleted> Info on carpal tunnel syndrome (Andrea Frankel via Jim Meyering and Werner Uhrig) The RISKS Forum is moderated. Contributions should be relevant, sound, in good taste, objective, coherent, concise, and nonrepetitious. Diversity is welcome. CONTRIBUTIONS to RISKS@CSL.SRI.COM, with relevant, substantive "Subject:" line (otherwise they may be ignored). REQUESTS to RISKS-Request@CSL.SRI.COM. TO FTP VOL i ISSUE j: ftp CRVAX.sri.com<CR>login anonymous<CR>AnyNonNullPW<CR> cd sys$user2:[risks]<CR>GET RISKS-i.j <CR>; j is TWO digits. Vol summaries in risks-i.00 (j=0); "dir risks-*.*<CR>" gives directory listing of back issues. ALL CONTRIBUTIONS ARE CONSIDERED AS PERSONAL COMMENTS; USUAL DISCLAIMERS APPLY. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 27 Jun 90 09:40:34 CDT From: meyering@cs.utexas.edu (Jim Meyering) Subject: info on carpal tunnel syndrome (CTS) [Submitted via werner@cs.utexas.edu (Werner Uhrig)] A friend suggested I read the following message (once posted to the sci.med newsgroup). I think it should interest anyone who types a lot. One point the author does not mention is that the "force-depression curve" of your keyboard may also play a role. It is better to have a linear relationship between force and depression. But the keys on some keyboards require greater force to depress the first few millimeters than the last few. This gives what is sometimes hyped as "positive-touch" or something similar. The net result is that you have to press (relatively) hard to get over the "hump," then with the low resistance beyond it, your fingers bang into the base with more force than with "linear" keyboards. People have suggested that this sort of dynamic may aggravate or even induce CTS. Many of our HPs have this "nonlinear" keyboards. The keys on some Sun3 keyboards have become so sticky that they give the same effect. Jim Meyering meyering@cs.utexas.edu uunet!cs.utexas.edu!meyering ========= From: Andrea Frankel <andrea@sdd.hp.com> Carpal Tunnel Syndrome: This is a slightly edited reposting; apologies if you've seen it before, but many people who read this on an internal HP notes group have found it useful and asked for it to be more widely distributed. Disclaimer: I am not a doctor (but I sometimes play one on the Net ;@). This is from my own personal experience with the malady, supplemented by a little research and lots of talking to doctors and such. Carpal Tunnel Syndrome is being seen more and more frequently among the computer set (my neurologist jokingly refers to it as "hacker's hand"); when caught early, conservative treatment can completely cure it. However, if you let it go on long enough you can cause irreversible damage. If you have any question at all, PLEASE SEE A DOCTOR! Better safe than sorry. 1. The setup The bones in your wrist form a 3-sided tunnel, with the fourth side closed off by a very tough piece of cartilage. In this carpal tunnel run the tendons of the muscles which flex your fingers, as well as the very important median nerve which ennervates the thumb and the first two fingers. If something happens to cause the contents of the tunnel to swell, or to cause the tunnel itself to get smaller, the pressure exerted on the median nerve results in carpal tunnel syndrome. Pregnancy, sudden weight gain, drugs which cause water retention, and repetitive overuse (or abuse) which causes tendinitis in those flexor tendons, can all cause carpal tunnel syndrome. (I recently learned that hypothyroid condition can also cause CTS.) Positions where the wrist is bent back while being used really exacerbate the problem (e.g. bicycling with drop handlebars, if you are not careful about hand positioning). Other things can contribute as well - if you are doing carpentry in your spare time and twisting many screws by hand, for example. When you become aware of the problem, start becoming aware of both the wrist position and the stresses on it in various activities. The median nerve runs up the heel of the hand onto the palm, along the "life line". Direct repeated blows to this area can mimic or add to the carpal tunnel syndrome, and are often lumped in with it. Our HP keyboards are awful in this respect. Kayaking, bicycling, gardening without heavy gloves, all sorts of things can bang on this exposed nerve. 2. The symptoms and diagnosis Any or all of the following: pain, numbness, tingling, or sensations of fullness in the fingers, hands, or shooting up or down the arms. Quick test #1: make an "O" with thumb and forefinger, insert the thumb and forefinger of the other hand, and resist while trying to force the "O" apart with the other hand. The "O" should not come apart! Quick test #2 (Tinnel sign): place the backs of your hands together, bend each hand 90 degrees towards the inner wrist, fingers pointing down (forearms parallel to the floor, held out in front of you). =======oo========= key: === forearms || o wrists .. | metacarpals .. . fingers Press the backs of the hands together and hold for 30-60 seconds. If you start getting some numbness or tingling or pain, this is suspicious. Loss of grip strength is a sign that you may have a more advanced case. (I finally sought help when I was unable to open a can of tuna fish with a standard Swingline manual can opener.) I believe the best specialist for diagnosis is a neurologist. A neurologist will do nerve conduction studies, comparing rates of conduction above and below the wrist, and between hands. A good one will also do electromyography, to see if the muscles enervated by the nerve are firing properly or not. (As a techie, I was fascinated to watch the 'scopes while he poked me!) 3. The treatment Standard treatment is to start with the most conservative, least invasive approaches, and move up only if they don't help. The old RICE formula - rest, ice, compression, and elevation - is the place to start, but omit the compression as this is not a muscle strain. A wrist splint (basically a velcro-and-ace-bandage type of thing with a bent metal strip in it to hold the wrist in the right position) is worn at night for a month to see if it helps; it can also be worn during the day for stretches. (Do not make it tight - it is for positioning only.) In many cases, that plus correcting one's work habits is sufficient. Some people find that a month is all it takes; others use the splint at night for the rest of their lives, or off and on as needed. I still use mine occasionally when I've been overdoing it. It's also a good idea to wear it in situations where you might be tempted to do something silly (like lugging suitcases or lifting weights), both as protection and as a reminder to be careful. Non-steroidal anti-inflammatories (e.g. Motrin) are used, if it looks like inflammation is a major cause of the problem. Icing the wrist helps alot, both for the pain and the swelling. (Be aware that over-icing has a rebound effect as the body attempts to warm the area by increasing circulation. Best is to ice for 10-20 minutes max each time, leaving at least an hour between icings.) I keep a couple of the soft gel-type blue ice packs in a little fridge near my desk, so that I can ice several times a day if I need to. Bags of frozen peas work great (hit 'em a couple whacks on the counter to loosen them up, then pat the bag around your wrist so it conforms to the curves). For obvious reasons, jacuzzis (especially if you leave your arms in) will tend to make things worse. If water retention is a problem, you might try a mild OTC diuretic. (Women: it isn't uncommon for CTS symptoms to be worse during PMS time.) Also, simply elevating the wrist (for example, resting it on the back of a padded chair or car seat, or sleeping with your splinted wrist wresting next to your head on the pillow) can help relieve some of the discomfort at least temporarily by reducing the swelling. As a long-time fan of vitamins, minerals, and Prevention magazine, I of course asked my doctors about B6 as a treatment for CTS. Unfortunately, the original article reporting success from B6 treatment was not reproducible by other experiments. What's more, excessive doses of B6 (over 50 mg/day supplement to a normal diet) can actually cause peripheral neuropathy, mimicking some of the symptoms of CTS. My doctor said it wouldn't hurt if I wanted to take up to 50 mg/day, but since I had been taking that amount for quite some time for other reasons, he advised against increasing it. Some doctors go for cortisone injections, although mine cautioned that the carrier substance is not well absorbed, and can actually make the problem worse by increasing the fluid pressure in the tunnel. Your doctor will decide based on the type of CTS and how it is responding to other treatment (or not). The final stage is surgery. I had mine a few years ago; if you're facing it, I'd be glad to chat with you about it. The surgery itself was a piece of cake, taking maybe 10 minutes once I was fully prepped - very simply, they slit that piece of cartilage along the "life line" and onto the wrist, and it spreads apart before it heals up, making the tunnel larger. Instant relief, although the recovery and rehab takes a couple months. For those interested in such things, I talked them into skipping general anaesthesia in favor of a Bier Block, which worked splendidly - I was out of there and wolfing down antipasto and garlic bread an hour after surgery. A friend notes that not everybody who has had the surgery finds it a piece of cake. His advice would be to make sure you have absolutely the best doctors when it come to surgery on one's hands, with which I heartily concur! Hands are incredibly complex, considering all the different types of finely coordinated movement they are capable of (and all the muscles and nerves that requires). I would strongly recommend that you look for an orthopedic surgeon who is board certified in Hand Reconstruction Surgery - my scar is almost invisible, compared to some pretty horrific looking ones I've seen. (I asked the neurologist, who was really top-notch, to look through my CCN [preferred provider] booklet and recommend someone to me.) An orthopedic surgeon who handles a little bit of everything - shoulder tears, knee arthroscopy, back problems - probably won't be as good at carpal tunnel surgery as someone who spends their entire professional life specializing in the elbow down. For example, my surgeon stopped the surface cut at the first wrist fold, lifted the skin, and continued the surgery under the skin to minimize the scarring; other surgeons (who don't specialize in hand reconstruction surgery) often don't think to do that. It doesn't affect how effective the surgery is, but it sure makes a difference in how pretty your hand looks afterwards! 4. The progression The symptoms may come and go with heavy bouts of typing, bicycling, etc. When it gets really bad, it can hurt all the time or start aching spontaneously. In the early stages, relieving the pressure on the median nerve will quickly reverse the symptoms (in a matter of days to weeks). Untreated, the pressure on the nerve will eventually cause it to die back to the point of constriction. When this happens, the muscles atrophy. (The large adductor which forms the mound at the base of my thumb had shrunk to half its size by the time I was operated on.) If you don't catch it quickly at that point, the nerve sheaths (which the nerve had been inside before it died back) start to fray. This is bad news. If you have surgery while the sheaths are still intact, the nerve will grow back along the sheath (around 2 mm/day - you can actually track it!) and pretty much recover all of its connections and functions. I have a tiny patch less than 1/4" diameter on two finger tips which is numb, and otherwise have full function back. If the nerve sheaths have frayed, however, the nerve can't find its way back to make the right connections, and you're screwed. IF YOU THINK YOU MIGHT HAVE CARPAL TUNNEL SYNDROME, GET IT LOOKED AT *NOW*!!! Don't delay, or you might not make a full recovery. Workman's comp studies looking at prognosis for recovery give very low odds, based on most factory workers (who used to account for most of the CTS claims before computeritis hit) being too macho or too scared of losing their jobs to file a claim before it was too late. 5. Prevention The optimal position for your wrist is with the hand bent back just 20-30 degrees; you want the position where the front of your wrist makes a straight line with the first inch of the heel of the palm. Play with it a bit until you find the place where the wrist seems to be maximally "open", but without bending the hand back so far that you feel strain. Look down at your hands as you type - if you are dropping your wrists, you are at risk. Think about how they used to teach piano technique: an almost straight line along the back of the forearms, through the wrist, onto the back of the hand; fingers dropping down. (My sister's piano teacher used to place pennies on the back of her hands while she played, to teach keeping it level.) Practice typing that way, and instead of resting the heel of your hands on the edge of the keyboard when you're thinking or reading, rest them in your lap instead. I got a very nice padded wrist rest from a local office supply house, that allows me to rest my forearms or wrists while I type in this position; I have one under my 320 keyboard, and one for my Vectra. You can also improvise by taking a length of bubblewrap, rolling it up and securing the ends with rubber bands, then taping the roll to your desk in front of the keyboard. Warning: this padded wrist rest can actually make it worse for some people, if it distorts the normal typing motion or presses too hard against the wrist. I currently have a keyboard draw from Devoke (about $115) that has a full 6" height adjustment, slides in and out and swings to both sides. It mounts with two screws, and I have one in the "L" of my workstation table at work, and on the desk at home where I have my PC. This has made the most difference when my CTS flared up again (along with rest and splinting). Wear padded gloves for anything which might bang on your hands. Bicycling gloves with Spenco pads can be used for many things (I wear mine ice skating!). The Spenco pads are definitely superior to leather or other types when it comes to cushioning that area against shocks. (After the surgery, I was warned that the median nerve would always be a bit more exposed and sensitive, and it definitely made me a connoisseur of bicycling gloves!) Learn to back off when you realize you're about to lift or torque something heavy with your wrist bent. If you can't rethink the movement so you can keep your wrist straight, get help (person or tool)! p.s. Feel free to copy and distribute this to anyone who might be helped. I only request that you not delete anything, especially the disclaimer. Andrea Frankel, Hewlett-Packard (San Diego Division) (619) 592-4664 UUCP : {hplabs|nosc|hpfcla|ucsd}!hp-sdd!andrea USnail : 16399 W. Bernardo Drive, San Diego CA 92127-1899 USA - ------------------------------ End of RISKS-FORUM Digest 10.12 ************************ >From risks-request@caesar.pica.army.mil Fri Jun 29 15:38:56 1990 Return-Path: <risks-request@caesar.pica.army.mil> Received: from aegean.nprdc.navy.mil by pacific.nprdc.navy.mil (5.59/SMI-4.0) id AA21870; Fri, 29 Jun 90 15:38:47 PDT Received: from [192.12.8.200] by nprdc.navy.mil (5.59/SMI-4.0) id AA25207; Fri, 29 Jun 90 15:38:01 PDT Received: from CAESAR.PICA.ARMY.MIL by CAESAR.PICA.ARMY.MIL id aa05889; 29 Jun 90 16:23 EDT Date: Fri, 29 Jun 90 16:22:14 EDT From: Milnet Risks Lists <risks-request@PICA.ARMY.MIL> To: list:;@caesar.pica.army.mil@nprdc.navy.mil Subject: RISKS DIGEST 10.13 Message-Id: <9006291622.aa05881@CAESAR.PICA.ARMY.MIL> Status: OR RISKS-LIST: RISKS-FORUM Digest Thursday 28 June 1990 Volume 10 : Issue 13 FORUM ON RISKS TO THE PUBLIC IN COMPUTERS AND RELATED SYSTEMS ACM Committee on Computers and Public Policy, Peter G. Neumann, moderator Contents: <deleted> Re: carpal tunnel syndrome (Mike Tanner, Henry Spencer) <deleted> The RISKS Forum is moderated. Contributions should be relevant, sound, in good taste, objective, coherent, concise, and nonrepetitious. Diversity is welcome. CONTRIBUTIONS to RISKS@CSL.SRI.COM, with relevant, substantive "Subject:" line (otherwise they may be ignored). REQUESTS to RISKS-Request@CSL.SRI.COM. TO FTP VOL i ISSUE j: ftp CRVAX.sri.com<CR>login anonymous<CR>AnyNonNullPW<CR> cd sys$user2:[risks]<CR>GET RISKS-i.j <CR>; j is TWO digits. Vol summaries in risks-i.00 (j=0); "dir risks-*.*<CR>" gives directory listing of back issues. ALL CONTRIBUTIONS ARE CONSIDERED AS PERSONAL COMMENTS; USUAL DISCLAIMERS APPLY. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 28 Jun 90 09:06:49 -0400 From: Mike Tanner <tanner@cis.ohio-state.edu> Subject: Re: info on carpal tunnel syndrome (CTS) (RISKS-10.12) At the risk of turning this into a medical forum I wanted to add to the excellent summary on carpal tunnel syndrome that there is a related problem called ulnar nerve syndrome. As with CTS, those of us who spend lots of time using keyboards are prone to ulnar nerve syndrome, too. The main difference in the symptoms is that with CTS the numbness and tingling is in the thumb and first two fingers, with UNS it is in the other two fingers and along the outside of the forarm. (When you "hit your funny bone", what you've done is bash your ulnar nerve. The symptoms are similar to that feeling, but they don't go away.) My wife's neurologist (she's been going through a bout of it) said there are many causes, but a common one is some activity that constantly rubs the elbow. In her case it is almost certainly typing while resting her elbows on the arms of a chair. One danger is that carpal tunnel syndrome is so hot, such a fad right now, that a physician might automatically connect "numbness" with "programmer" and say "carpal tunnel". My wife's physician did this, and only changed his mind after we had looked in some medical books and found that CTS symptoms did not match hers. (Physicians deny that they reason this way. Experience tells otherwise.) Treatment is basically like CTS: ice, avoid bending the elbow as much as possible (not easy to do), don't do things that rub the elbow a lot, anti-inflammation drugs. There is surgery, but unlike CTS, ulnar nerve surgery is not a good option. Apparently it has about a 50% chance of making things worse, according to my wife's neurologist. (That might have been an estimate that took the nature of her condition into account, i.e., there are cases where it has a high probability of success, but hers isn't one of them.) - -- mike - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Jun 90 14:11:52 EDT From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu Subject: Re: info on carpal tunnel syndrome (CTS) >One point the author does not mention is that the "force-depression curve" of >your keyboard may also play a role. It is better to have a linear >relationship between force and depression... >... People have suggested that this sort of dynamic may >aggravate or even induce CTS... What was the incidence of CTS twenty years ago, when electric typewriters routinely had non-linear force-depression curves? Or before that, when manual typewriters required far more finger pressure than any modern keyboard? Yet again, we have here a case of a "computer risk" that isn't really new, and data from olden days could be very useful in deciding what *really* causes it. Data would be particularly useful because it's easy to construct an argument that points in precisely the opposite direction! Once you've pushed a non-linear keyboard key "over the hump", you can relax pressure. But with a linear keyboard, you have to push all the way down, since you get no "that's enough" feedback until the key hits bottom. Some of this may be a risk not of nonlinear keyboards, but of lack of proper training. Pre-computer typing courses taught you to *strike* the keys rather than *pushing* them, so your muscles were already relaxing when the key bottomed out. One side effect of the proliferation of keyboards is that far more people are using them without formal training, or with training from "touch typing" programs that teach you which keys to hit but don't teach posture or hand position. Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology - ------------------------------ End of RISKS-FORUM Digest 10.13 ************************ ------- End of digest -------
raveling@Unify.com (Paul Raveling) (06/27/91)
In article <1991Jun25.183429.3457@aucs.AcadiaU.ca>, 880139h@aucs.AcadiaU.ca (Rob Hutten) writes: > > Have any of you had experience with getting either carpal > tunnel syndrome or ulnar nerve entrapment from using computers > on a regular basis? Several years ago I got a modest case of what may or may not be carpal tunnel syndrome. It fit the description of what was then called a temporary arthritic condition due to repetitive motion. This occurred when I worked as a consultant and had to edit a couple thousand pages of MIL spec documentation on a VT-100, using the EDT editor. In addition to ordinary typing, using EDT involved a lot of functions bound to keys on the keypad to the right of the main cluster. Essentially all function keys including cursor motion required keystrokes with the right hand. I developed persistent pain and stiffness in both hands and to a lesser extent in the forearms, feeling more discomfort in the right hand than the left. Apparently ordinary typing was sufficient to cause the problem, but it was aggravated by DEC's keyboard layout and by their software's use of that keyboard. After that assignment I returned to editing with my own non-QWERTY keyboard layout, though still not using a mouse for a couple years. The soreness and stiffness abated and vanished over a period of a couple months even though I was still doing about the same amount of typing. The remapped keyboard layout was intended to boost both speed and comfort. Apparently it succeeded in reducing stress of the sort that gives rise to at least one form of a repetitive motion syndrome. P.S.: I still don't understand why Digital persists in using what's now the most awkward keyboard I know of on computing gear. I'd LOVE to have a DECstation, but would refuse to buy one if it meant having to use that keyboard. ------------------ Paul Raveling Raveling@Unify.com
rob@spot.Colorado.EDU (Rob Cuthbertson) (06/28/91)
In article <1991Jun25.183429.3457@aucs.AcadiaU.ca> 880139h@aucs.acadiau.ca (Rob Hutten) writes: > > >Have any of you had experience with getting either carpal >tunnel syndrome or ulnar nerve entrapment from using computers >on a regular basis? I'm starting physiotherapy tonight for UNE, >and my brother had his wrist in a brace for a couple months with >CTS. We're both programmers and we've been told that both >problems were caused by the rigid position in which we hold our >hands. My brother's CTS was relieved with the brace and the use >of a trackball instead of a mouse (he does Macintosh support), >so I was wondering if there were products available such as >special keyboard holders, etc. which could help out my UNE. > A few months ago, I recall reading an article about a "bent" keyboard for Macs which was designed to reduce the strain on the Carpal Tunnel tendons. The keyboard layout was unchanged, but the keyboard itself arched up in the middle, reducing the twist in the forearm. As I recall, this keyboard was patented by an individual who was "working out the details" of selling it for Macs. I have not heard anything since, and I'd like to know what has become of it. Anyone with more details, please let me know. I'd be MOST interested in a keyboard of this type for a Sun Sparcstation, but a Mac keyboard would be great too. (disclaimer: I don't pretend to be an authority on the preventative or curative value of this change, but it IS a more comfortable position. Try this -- hold your arms in a typing position, with palms down. Now turn your hands so the palms face each other. Which position would YOU rather be in for 2000 hours/year?) --Rob Cuthbertson, rob@spot.Colorado.EDU "You're not supposed to understand this." (Comment in bsd UNIX kernel source?)
cpetterb@glacier.sim.es.com (Cary Petterborg) (06/28/91)
In article <1991Jun27.175225.22984@colorado.edu> rob@spot.Colorado.EDU (Rob Cuthbertson) writes: >(disclaimer: I don't pretend to be an authority on the preventative or >curative value of this change, but it IS a more comfortable position. >Try this -- hold your arms in a typing position, with palms down. Now >turn your hands so the palms face each other. Which position would YOU rather >be in for 2000 hours/year?) I have been interested in the keyboard discussions going on, but missed some of the postings, so I don't know if this has been discussed before: I think that it would be much easier to "break" the keyboard apart and put the keypad between the positions for the hands. This would separate the hands to a more comfortable position and leave the keypad and cursor keys in the middle where either hand could be used. Does anyone else like this idea? There are certain problems, but I think that it would be workable. Did anyone else see the One-Handed keyboard at SIGCHI '91? I thought it had some real promise, too. Cary -- _______________ Cary Petterborg (801)582-5847 x6446 Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp. Simulation Division SLC, UT 84108 UUCP: ...!uunet!sim.es.com!cpetterb *NET: cpetterb@glacier.sim.es.com _______________ "A heart is not judged by how much you love, but by how much you are loved by others." -Wizard of Oz
taak9@isuvax.iastate.edu (Steve Sheldon) (06/28/91)
In article <CPETTERB.91Jun27172300@mickey.glacier.sim.es.com>, cpetterb@glacier.sim.es.com (Cary Petterborg) writes: >In article <1991Jun27.175225.22984@colorado.edu> rob@spot.Colorado.EDU (Rob Cuthbertson) writes: > >>(disclaimer: I don't pretend to be an authority on the preventative or >>curative value of this change, but it IS a more comfortable position. >>Try this -- hold your arms in a typing position, with palms down. Now >>turn your hands so the palms face each other. Which position would YOU rather >>be in for 2000 hours/year?) > >I have been interested in the keyboard discussions going on, but missed some >of the postings, so I don't know if this has been discussed before: > >I think that it would be much easier to "break" the keyboard apart and >put the keypad between the positions for the hands. This would separate >the hands to a more comfortable position and leave the keypad and cursor >keys in the middle where either hand could be used. Does anyone else >like this idea? There are certain problems, but I think that it would >be workable. Hmm, I saw this and started thinking. Perhaps breaking it apart. Another idea would be to curve the keyboard rows. Your arms come in at angles to reach the center keys, so perhaps curving the rows so you don't need to twist your wrist. > >Did anyone else see the One-Handed keyboard at SIGCHI '91? I thought >it had some real promise, too. > >Cary >-- >_______________ >Cary Petterborg (801)582-5847 x6446 >Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp. Simulation Division SLC, UT 84108 >UUCP: ...!uunet!sim.es.com!cpetterb *NET: cpetterb@glacier.sim.es.com >_______________ > "A heart is not judged by how much you love, but by how much you > are loved by others." -Wizard of Oz Steve Sheldon /// taak9@ccvax.iastate.edu /// Iowa State University \XX/
evensen@husc9.harvard.edu (Erik Evensen) (06/28/91)
MacWorld follows this "thread" pretty closely. I don't remember which issue that the original article about the guy who invented the keyboard which breaks in half and can be folded but the latest (August) issue has a column (for lack of a better a name) on some of the upcoming products which could help deal with repetitive stress disorders. This include chording input devices, wrist rests, and others. My main problem is that the novel input devices are going to be way too expensive -- I don't think I could convince my research advisor that I needed a chording input device if it costs 5 times what a regular keyboard does...Well, just my opinions and some info... --Erik (evensen@husc.harvard.edu)