LPARKER@auvm.american.edu (lloyd parker jr.) (06/26/91)
I think that the trackball is a good idea, but as for an adequate substitute for the mouse I think it leaves something to be desired. First of all it takes more effort to be accurate with the track ball than a mouse. Also mouse users do not have the wrist problems that can result from trackball use. I also think that to put any mouse or trackball type device on the keyboard will make matters worse. A person will not be able to type and use the mouse at the sametime, nor would they a trackball, regardless of the location. So I don't think it matters where the location is. So what do you suggest? I am glad you asked that, what about a thumb joystick type device, one that would allow the user to move the cursor around in a more or less 90 degree fashion, which would make things more accurate. Maybe that would work. Such a device would probable work being located at the bottom of the keyboard. Comments? ========================= Lparker@auvm.american.edu
akm@obelix.cs.uoregon.edu (Anant Kartik Mithal) (06/27/91)
In article <91176.152002LPARKER@auvm.american.edu> LPARKER@auvm.american.edu (lloyd parker jr.) writes: >I also think that to put any mouse or trackball type device on the keyboard >will make matters worse. A person will not be able to type and use the mouse >at the sametime, nor would they a trackball, regardless of the location. >So I don't think it matters where the location is. I'm not sure what you mean by "type and use the mouse at the same time." Does that mean moving the mouse cursor and typing simultaneously? In any case: >So what do you suggest? >I am glad you asked that, what about a thumb joystick type device, one that >would allow the user to move the cursor around in a more or less 90 degree >fashion, which would make things more accurate. Maybe that would work. >Such a device would probable work being located at the bottom of the keyboard. There are a few such devices. The Home Row Keyboard, which puts a joystick under the 'j' key is one such. Another device uses up a little of both ends of the space bar, putting rollers there. You can manipulate the rollers with both thumbs to move the cursor around. This sounds like exactly what you had in mind, though I am not sure why you think it would be more accurate (could you elaborate?). I haven't used it myself. I *believe* this device is available on Grid Laptops. Ibm puts a joystick between the TGHY keys. Dec puts a touch pad on their keyboards. I've seen a number of keyboards with a whole trackball built in. -- Anant Kartik Mithal akm@cs.uoregon.edu Network Manager, (503)346-4408 (msgs) Department of Computer Science, (503)346-3989 (direct) University of Oregon, Eugene, OR 97403-1202
wdr@wang.com (William Ricker) (06/28/91)
LPARKER@auvm.american.edu (lloyd parker jr.) writes: >I think that the trackball is a good idea, but ... I have used a trackball, many mice, and our own Wang tablet & pen. I currently use the trackball day-in,day-out primarily because it uses the least desk-space; I can pull it on top of the stack of manuals, or set in on the (high) shelf the monitor is on if the (low keybd) "desk" is too cluttered. It also stays where I've put it, so I can learn to find it by touch. (If only this keybd had dimples on the home keys; maybe I'll pit 'F'&'J' with my scratch awl, there's an idea. Thanks!) Warning: I'm a touch typist, and thus am biased against interfaces that don't supply fast-keys for every click, and pointing devices that interfere my home-key instinct. > it takes more effort to be accurate with the track ball than a mouse. For some pointing tasks, the pen beats both mice & balls in accuracy. For most tasks, I find the trackball superior, because i can lift my thumb from the ball and see the pointer settle before hitting/releasing the button; button click or unclick usually moves the mouse by reaction by a critical pixel. >mouse users do not have the wrist problems that can result from trackball use After I upgraded to MS Windows 3.0, I started getting wrist ache from the mouse. That has largely gone away since I got the trackball -- which I can have at several angles, including on the edges of things. (It helps that my space has more levels than most.) >I also think that to put any mouse or trackball type device on the keyboard >will make matters worse. Hmm. Have you seen the keyboards with either a miny-trackball or the ring-on-a-soda-straw just behind (or below) the spacebar, to be operated by the two thumbs? Lets you keep all 8 fingers on the home keys while mousing. Presumably you use the existing or extra CTL-ALT-SHIFT keys to indicate various clicks. > A person will not be able to type and use the mouse >at the sametime, nor would they a trackball, regardless of the location. >So I don't think it matters where the location is. 1. See above; I should be able to. 2. Even if both hands are emulating mice buttons while draggin -- and 102 buttons is a nice number to have on a mouse, if I need more than one -- having my fingers near/on the home keys rather than far away is good for this touch typist, as well as lower on energy expenditure. (Remember why light pens died.) >So what do you suggest? >I am glad you asked that, what about a thumb joystick type device, one that >would allow the user to move the cursor around in a more or less 90 degree >fashion, which would make things more accurate. Maybe that would work. >Such a device would probable work being located at the bottom of the keyboard. Thumbwheel cursors are excelant for Tektronix graphics tubes; they had 'em, years ago. I used 'em. Putting 'em under the space-bar would help touch type. Twisting one inside the other to make a sodastraw- and-ring assembley makes it fit better there and may make it more like drawing and less like etch-a-sketch if you want to be able to use it in PAINT programs as well as for rubber banding. Of course, in the coming generation of pen-based portable computers, there is no keyboard and no mouse, just screen and stylus. (Well yes, there is a jack for a keyboard -- portable or otherwise; ours has decent sized keys on the portable optional keyboard, but can accept a standard keyboard too.) No home keys to worry about when you're mobile. Is the desktop ready for pen-based computing? Wang FreeStyle 2.0 (works with MS Windows!) coming soon may answer that question. (No it doesn't run with Xwindows yet, although if you get somebody else's X-under-Win30, it might. I want one of those.) -- /s/ Bill Ricker wdr@wang.wang.com "The Freedom of the Press belongs to those who own one." *** Warning: This account is not authorized to express opinions. ***
msp33327@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Michael S. Pereckas) (06/28/91)
>LPARKER@auvm.american.edu (lloyd parker jr.) writes: >>I think that the trackball is a good idea, but ... I've just started using a wonderful mouse interface to my terminal emulator. When I click the right button, it sends a space. The left button sends backspace, and the middle pageup. (This is an IBM clone) This way I can read news without having to reach up for the spacebar. I just hold the mouse in my lap. *Much* nicer. I did it with this extremely simple menu in the Logitech menu program: BEGIN leftb, midb, rightb ; leftb: TYPE 8 rightb: TYPE " " midb: TYPE 0,73 Presumably Mac and Windows developers just cringe at this because I'm not using the mouse in The Standard And Sacred Way, but I love it. I've been discussing with a friend how you might do this on a Mac. (I once tried lifting the mouse after placing the pointer on the scroll bar down thing, but every time I bumped the mouse, the pointer would move enough to mess it up.) The single button really limits the possibilites. Windows doesn't really use the other buttons, so you could use the other button for space. -- < Michael Pereckas <> m-pereckas@uiuc.edu <> Just another student... > ``You can be real patient if you don't have a central nervous system'' ---Dr. Ronald Pine
agodwin@acorn.co.uk (Adrian Godwin) (06/29/91)
In article <b7p6s9.adp@wang.com> wdr@wang.com (William Ricker) writes: >LPARKER@auvm.american.edu (lloyd parker jr.) writes: > >> A person will not be able to type and use the mouse >>at the sametime, nor would they a trackball, regardless of the location. >>So I don't think it matters where the location is. > 1. See above; I should be able to. 2. Even if both hands are emulating >mice buttons while draggin -- and 102 buttons is a nice number to have on a >mouse, if I need more than one -- having my fingers near/on the home keys >rather than far away is good for this touch typist, as well as lower on >energy expenditure. (Remember why light pens died.) > Are there any MicroWriter users here ? (For those who aren't familiar with the MicroWriter / Agenda, it's a 5 or 6 key chord keyboard with mnemonic chord shapes). It seems to me that such a keyboard might be integrated with a mouse or trackball to make an single input device that both points and types. The microwriter interface might lose some of it's simplicity by requiring a shift between pointer buttons and chord keyboard. Any thoughts ? On trackballs : I prefer the idea of a trackball (I also have trouble finding a sufficiently clear, flat area for a mouse to work on) but I have great trouble with the shift-drag operation that most GUIs require. Consequently, I'm staying with the mouse for now. Are there trackballs available with a more convenient button layout that overcome this problem ? I've seen one with buttons to the left of the ball rather than above it - is that a better arrangement ? Or the trackballs with locking buttons ? -adrian -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Adrian Godwin (agodwin@acorn.co.uk)
rsw@cs.brown.EDU (Bob Weiner) (06/29/91)
In article <8113@acorn.co.uk> agodwin@acorn.co.uk (Adrian Godwin) writes: > Are there any MicroWriter users here ? (For those who aren't familiar with > the MicroWriter / Agenda, it's a 5 or 6 key chord keyboard with mnemonic > chord shapes). > > It seems to me that such a keyboard might be integrated with a mouse or > trackball to make an single input device that both points and types. Doug Engelbart's Augmentation lab at Stanford Research Institute put together such an interface decades ago. They found it extremely efficient and it remains so today. Engelbart still uses a 5-key chord set and mouse in his work. So anyone designing a two-handed interface set like this is not doing anything novel. If you're interested in Engelbart's work, his non-profit Bootstrap Institute distributes a thick volume of hard to find classic papers for $75. If you read them, you'll learn a lot about HCI and many other topics and quite possibly fewer people will invent 'new' things that were actually invented long ago. Bootstrap Institute, 6505 Kaiser Dr, Fremont CA 94555 +1 415 713 3552 -- Bob Weiner rsw@cs.brown.edu