b_duke@darwin.ntu.edu.au (Brian Duke) (05/23/91)
Welcome to what I hope will become a significant group. It has been
siiting around in our system with no items, so I thought I would start
things off.
My backround in these things is that I worked as Professor of Chemistry
at Bayero University, Kano, Nigeria (very far north Nigeria) (nearly 5
years) and the University of Papua New Guinea (4 years). My research
interests are in Computational Chemistry and I worked for a while in a
Computer Science Department. As a result I am often asked to chair User
Committees etc. In Nigeria, we had no computer in the university when
I got there. I became acting Director of Computer Services and built
up a system, employed a full-time Director and, with him, selected a
mainframe - a VAX - and installed it. It went on air a about a week
before I left the country. Meanwhile I had used a Cyber at the nearest
university (Ahmado Bello University - 100 miles away). In PNG we were
more developed and had a Prime. In the last year or so (1985-6), IBM PC
came in greater numbers.
The biggest problems in Nigeria were power supply - terrible, often off
for hours each day, maintainance - poor training for local reps, and high
prices - the local reps had to have their dash.
Anyway, enough of this stuff. A question to start something going, I hope.
How many sites in real developing countries are on the net. Is this group
going to be another case of the well developed pontificating about the less
developed? Or can they join in? Of course there will be expatriates from
developing countries working in developed countries. It used to be said
that there were more Nigerian Computer Scientists in the US than Nigeria.
They did not want to go home. Is this still the case? Does the net reach
Africa, South America, PNG, Fiji, South East Asia etc? I hear there are
even difficulties with E-mail to some European countries such as Greece.
Can we have some information in this group to get us going?
--
Brian Salter-Duke (Brian Duke)
School of Chemistry and Earth Sciences, Northern Territory University
GPO Box 40146, Casuarina, NT 0811, Australia.
Phone 089-466702 FAX 089-410460 E-mail B_DUKE@DARWIN.NTU.EDU.AUbirchall@pilot.njin.net (Official Random) (05/23/91)
A few thoughts..... Where the net goes.... a few of the more recent additions to the sundry nets include China (mainland, I believe, not Taiwan), South Africa, and Poland. Computer Science personnel from developing nations... I have seen this phenomena at work. I spent a few months at New Jersey Institute of Tech., and one was as likely to have friends named "Patel" as "Smith." The school strives to attract students from around the world, and largely succeeds. From relating to a few, though, they do not all want to stay in the US after college. Many of them want to return to their homelands and help bring their nations to the leading edge technologically. I for one heartily support it. -sh -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dan Birchall [ Shag ] birchall@njin NJIN Official Random birchall@pilot.njin.net Promoting Alt.BBS.Internet, QuartzBBS/QuartzParadise, and clues for sale cheap.
dparedes@s.psych.uiuc.edu (David Paredes) (05/23/91)
birchall@pilot.njin.net (Official Random) writes: > > Where the net goes.... a few of the more recent additions to the sundry nets >include China (mainland, I believe, not Taiwan), South Africa, and Poland. Does anyone have more information regarding the network in China? I would very much like to be able to send some files to someone at Beijing Normal University. Any information would be appreciated. -- David Paredes {dparedes@s.psych.uiuc.edu *or* dparedes@128.174.15.20} Univ. of Illinois/Psych 315/603 E. Daniel/Champaign, IL 61820/(217/244-3669)
eugene@nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) (05/23/91)
I will read this my token dozen messages before 'u'ing.
Curt answer:
Many people and few people.
I've now received email from the Soviet Union. Email from around the
world. I've gone on vacation in very remote areas of the US miles from
paved roads when I have encountered people living there having PCs
and contempating getting a modem for their children. Scary thought. ;^)
Who else? Well let's see, the IRS has about a dozen Usenet nodes.
I think this scares a few more than the "spook agencies."
My "favorite" bookstore is just a hop off of UUCP. But at the
same time, this is a very limited and very biased sample. We should
not confuse the net with reality.
I know many scientists who don't have email access and are not interested
in access. What of the general public? Computers and nets are just a tool,
and a few don't even like computers. We have created something of
a technological elite, whether we like it or not. We over-generalize the
speed of response for mass opinion. We mistake the opinions of the few
of the many. This says nothing of the person in remote areas just concern
with base survival.
We must achieve a balance the pure information age and the physical world
in which we live. In the words of Bronowski (1974): "We must touch."
--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
{uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugenejms@netcom.COM (John Schonholtz) (05/24/91)
In article <1991May23.115550.966@darwin.ntu.edu.au> b_duke@darwin.ntu.edu.au (Brian Duke) writes: >How many sites in real developing countries are on the net. Is this group >going to be another case of the well developed pontificating about the less >developed? Or can they join in? Of course there will be expatriates from >developing countries working in developed countries. It used to be said >that there were more Nigerian Computer Scientists in the US than Nigeria. >They did not want to go home. Is this still the case? Does the net reach >Africa, The net reaches South Africa. It doesn't seem to make it anywhere else on that continent, at least not yet. >South America, PNG, Fiji, South East Asia etc? I hear there are >even difficulties with E-mail to some European countries such as Greece. In Latin America, the United Nations has a project "huracan" to help put together low-cost mail networks throughout the region. Ted Hope in Costa Rica will probably be posting here eventually, and he can tell you more than I (at the moment he seems to be swamped with work). The goal is to have the net in every country in the region. -- John Schonholtz jms@netcom.com I have no idea what the operating system of the yearr 2001 will be like, but I do know that it will be called UNIX.
trifid@agora.rain.com (Roadster Racewerks) (05/24/91)
Hmmmm. Who is on the net? How about a female part-time sports car mechanic who is an information junkie? I don't even care for computers all that much (although I am not scared of them like some people) and have marginal use for them in my very small business. I live below the established USA "poverty level", am on Food Stamps, belong to the SCA, am studying to become a libraraian (my need for computers is about to change in a *big* way! :-) am a heavy poster to several soc.culture groups. I come to you courtesy of a private BBS in Portland, Oregon, via a used Commodore 64 using a Kermit program. The only thing I miss is the "space" afforded by a hard disk and larger memory, but my "home" system has nearly unlimited file space, so it's not much of a problem. I console myself, when twitted about my machine by IBM-pushers, that this little machine would have filled a goodly space in the 50's, and belong to a large business or university. :-) I use it almost exclusively to access the net, and get about 15 pieces of email a day from around the world... Suze Hammond trifid@agora.rain.com (Sorry about the typo of "librarian". :-) If *I* can do it, so can Zaire!
bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) (05/24/91)
>The net reaches South Africa. It doesn't seem to make it anywhere else >on that continent, at least not yet. I believe I have received e-mail from Egypt and Tunisia (although the Tunisians may have been doing something strange to get to me, they were asking questions regarding bringing up a new net link in Tunis, it should be up by now.) Isn't American University, Cairo on the net? -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
Dan_Jacobson@ATT.COM (05/24/91)
>>>>> On 24 May 91 05:58:07 GMT, bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) said: >The net reaches South Africa. It doesn't seem to make it anywhere else >on that continent, at least not yet. Barry> I believe I have received e-mail from Egypt and Tunisia (although the Barry> Tunisians may have been doing something strange to get to me, they Barry> were asking questions regarding bringing up a new net link in Tunis, Barry> it should be up by now.) Isn't American University, Cairo on the net? There also is a regular poster from Namibia, who's name escapes me.
ccfj@hippo.ru.ac.za (F. Jacot Guillarmod) (05/26/91)
In <1991May23.211452.17937@netcom.COM> jms@netcom.COM (John Schonholtz) writes: >The net reaches South Africa. It doesn't seem to make it anywhere else >on that continent, at least not yet. Which "net" is that? ;-) The zone 5 (Africa) Fidonet gateway is sitting here at Rhodes University and we are dialling Botswana, Zimbabwe, Kenya and Ethiopia. We also have users from neighbouring countries (e.g. Namibia) that have guest accounts on our Unix systems and dial in via X.25 (cheaper than direct dial via modem). There are a few problems with this - these Fidonet nodes are inherently "single user" systems and just because there is an individual running a system in say, Kenya, doesn't mean that the country is actually "connected". It does show, however, that email access to less developed countries is more than just possible. South Africa has bootstrapped its way from a Fidonet gateway up to uucp and (shortly) full TCP/IP connectivity over a period of two years. Another problem is internal infra-structure. How badly do universities in the same country need to talk to each other? Our experience was that local networking only took off after we got international email access. Up until then, an "email culture" doesn't exist, and has no reason to exist because it is easy enough to pick up the phone and talk to somebody. However you can sell international email as being "cheaper than a fax", and once this is accepted, local networking (even within an organisation) booms because the culture is acceptable. Conversely, if you don't have internal networking, sites don't develop the skills or experience required to handle international traffic. In short, it is a complex and non-obvious set of causes and effects that gets a developing country (as opposed to a single individual in that country) "on the net". Lastly, you can have all the will and skills and hardware in the world in a given place, but if you can't get a reliable telephone connection across town, let alone into a neighbouring country, you will land up frustrated. Other problems, such as reliable power, hardware maintenance etc pale into insignificance compared to lack of comms infrastructure. In South(ern) Africa, there are many people at many sites (Fidonet, uucp and TCP/IP) who are more than willing to provide connectivity and technical assistance to sites in neighbouring countries. -- F.F. Jacot Guillarmod - Computing Centre - Rhodes University Artillery Road - P.O Box 94 - Grahamstown - 6140 - South Africa Internet: ccfj@hippo.ru.ac.za Phone: +27 [0]461 22023 xt 284 uucp: ..!uunet!m2xenix!quagga!hippo!ccfj Fax: +27 [0]461 25049
ccfj@hippo.ru.ac.za (F. Jacot Guillarmod) (05/26/91)
In <1991May24.142757.7892@cbfsb.att.com> Dan_Jacobson@ATT.COM writes: >There also is a regular poster from Namibia, who's name escapes me. Eberhard Lisse (spel@hippo.ru.ac.za) who is a medical doctor at Katatura State Hospital in Windhoek, Namibia. He has a guest account on this system. -- F.F. Jacot Guillarmod - Computing Centre - Rhodes University Artillery Road - P.O Box 94 - Grahamstown - 6140 - South Africa Internet: ccfj@hippo.ru.ac.za Phone: +27 [0]461 22023 xt 284 uucp: ..!uunet!m2xenix!quagga!hippo!ccfj Fax: +27 [0]461 25049
ccml@hippo.ru.ac.za (Mike Lawrie) (05/27/91)
In <1991May23.211452.17937@netcom.COM> jms@netcom.COM (John Schonholtz) writes: >The net reaches South Africa. It doesn't seem to make it anywhere else >on that continent, at least not yet. From the SAfrican gateway, we forward Fidonet mail to Botswana, and are busy getting a newly registered .NA on the air. Negotiations have been going on a long time in an effort to link to the University in Harare (Zimbabwe). We are willing and keen to link to any other site in Africa. We have some experience with low-tech problems, and in dealing with places for which 1200 bd is a moderate speed. Mike -- Mike Lawrie Director Computing Services, Rhodes University, South Africa .....................<ccml@hippo.ru.ac.za>.......................... Rhodes University condemns racism and racial segregation
ccml@hippo.ru.ac.za (Mike Lawrie) (05/27/91)
In <1991May24.142757.7892@cbfsb.att.com> Dan_Jacobson@ATT.COM writes: >There also is a regular poster from Namibia, who's name escapes me. Must be Eberhard Lisse, who picks up email at <spel@hippo.ru.ac.za> amongst other places. Mike -- Mike Lawrie Director Computing Services, Rhodes University, South Africa .....................<ccml@hippo.ru.ac.za>.......................... Rhodes University condemns racism and racial segregation
gowj@novavax.UUCP (James Gow) (05/28/91)
In article <1991May23.150108.27255@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> dparedes@s.psych.uiuc.edu (David Paredes) writes: >birchall@pilot.njin.net (Official Random) writes: >> >> Where the net goes.... a few of the more recent additions to the sundry nets >>include China (mainland, I believe, not Taiwan), South Africa, and Poland. > >Does anyone have more information regarding the network in China? I would >very much like to be able to send some files to someone at Beijing Normal >University. Any information would be appreciated. I am also interested int eh bejing connection since I know an american phd there I would like to contact. IF anyone has an address it would be appreciated. Gowj gowj@novavax.nova.edu linc james
G.Joly@cs.ucl.ac.uk (Gordon Joly) (05/29/91)
Roadster Racewerks writes: > [..] > I use it almost exclusively to access the net, and get about 15 pieces of email > a day from around the world... > > Suze Hammond > trifid@agora.rain.com > > (Sorry about the typo of "librarian". :-) > > If *I* can do it, so can Zaire! Suze, that just about takes the cake and the biscuit and eats it too! I once recall a friend's father, having visited some fairly poor country (not the UK:-) saying "They are not poor; they all drive around in Mercedes motor cars." Indeed. But what about all the "invisible people" who do not go out, since they cannot afford to buy goods or services (like transportation). My old department still has no news feed, either... Gordon ____ Gordon Joly +44 71 387 7050 ext 3716 Internet: G.Joly@cs.ucl.ac.uk UUCP: ...!{uunet,ukc}!ucl-cs!G.Joly Computer Science, University College London, Gower Street, LONDON WC1E 6BT Drop a utensil.
cmf851@anu.oz.au (Albert Langer) (05/30/91)
In article <1991May24.011820.9512@agora.rain.com> trifid@agora.rain.com (Roadster Racewerks) writes: >Hmmmm. Who is on the net? > >How about a female part-time sports car mechanic who is an information junkie? >I don't even care for computers all that much (although I am not scared of them >like some people) and have marginal use for them in my very small business. I >live below the established USA "poverty level", am on Food Stamps, belong to >the SCA, am studying to become a libraraian (my need for computers is about to >change in a *big* way! :-) am a heavy poster to several soc.culture groups. I >come to you courtesy of a private BBS in Portland, Oregon, via a used Commodore >64 using a Kermit program. [...] >If *I* can do it, so can Zaire! Yes, I think the fact that low income people with C64s can get net access in developed countries establishes that there is great potential in developing countries (though low telephone penetration is a much bigger problem than the cost of computers). But as well as having a phone line you are an "information junkie" which would make you fairly determined to get net access, and studying to become a librarian. There probably isn't much we can do about the lack of people similar to you in Zaire, since just access to C64s isn't sufficient. Nevertheless there are enough people who could benefit in a big way even with very cheap equipment for it to be worthwhile. (Computer networking doesn't even depend on telephone lines - diskettes and cassettes can be exchanged via post and articles can end up printed and photocopied for further distribution). But you have one MAJOR advantage which people in Zaire don't have, which we CAN do something about... that local BBS sysop in Portland Oregon. Not easily transplanted to Zaire, but perhaps capable of being made unnecessary. -- Opinions disclaimed (Authoritative answer from opinion server) Header reply address wrong. Use cmf851@csc2.anu.edu.au
ames@reed.UUCP (S.Taimi Ames) (05/31/91)
Not too special myself, but while I was teaching in Seoul, South Korea, I could regularly correspond on the nets with people back in the US. The un- fortunate thing was the turnaround time--it takes two or three days, if things work right, but mail seems to get lost in the ozone pretty easily. I have several friends there I would love to hear from, but even with email, we haven't been able to keep up correspondance. taimi ames ames@reed.edu
hope@huracan.cr (Theodore Hope) (06/02/91)
Central America is on the net.
Our project, Proyecto Huracan, carried out by the Secretaria General del
Consejo Superior Universitario Centroamericano ("secretariat general of the
higher council of Central American [state] universities"), financed by the
United Nations Development Programme and the Canadian Agency for
International Development, provides e-mail and news to currently 200 users
in Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, and Panama. Our
system is a registered Internet node (we do uucp with Uunet) connected to
the regional X.25 data network, so users connect to us thorugh the data
network (no long-distance calls involved here).
Most of our users do not read the news at the moment; this is changing. The
mail and news interface is in Spanish.
-Theodore Hope
Proyecto Regional de Telecomunicaciones "Huracan"
Consejo Superior Universitario Centroamericano - CSUCA
Programa de Naciones Unidas para el Desarrollo - PNUD
San Jose, COSTA RICA
Internet: hope@huracan.cr UUCP: uunet!huracan!hope
Tel: +506 539011 +506 252744 Fax: +506 539141gowj@novavax.UUCP (James Gow) (06/03/91)
In article <1991May29.184450.14121@newshost.anu.edu.au> cmf851@anu.oz.au (Albert Langer) writes: >In article <1991May24.011820.9512@agora.rain.com> trifid@agora.rain.com >(Roadster Racewerks) writes: > >Yes, I think the fact that low income people with C64s can get net access >in developed countries establishes that there is great potential in >developing countries (though low telephone penetration is a much bigger >problem than the cost of computers). But as well as having a phone line you >are an "information junkie" which would make you fairly determined to get >net access, and studying to become a librarian. There probably isn't much >we can do about the lack of people similar to you in Zaire, since just >access to C64s isn't sufficient. Nevertheless there are enough people >who could benefit in a big way even with very cheap equipment for it >to be worthwhile. > The dade county public school system MIami Florida USA. made me trade in all my Atari 800's for radio shack rlx's. On the surface it seems real nice however the ratio of students to computers went from 1:1 to 2:1. The computers will be auctioned off at $10 per palate. I don't know how many computers you can get on a palate but I estimate it to be 30. They'd have to mail them to California to get them fixed but it seems to me like a way to get emerging nations into computing at a low price. I plan to buy at least one palate and give them to a community program that has no computers. I know someone thinks they know what they are doing but I disagree. linc james >-- >Opinions disclaimed (Authoritative answer from opinion server) >Header reply address wrong. Use cmf851@csc2.anu.edu.au
trifid@agora.rain.com (Roadster Racewerks) (06/03/91)
Ah, Gordon, I see you're one of those "the glass is half empty" people. I didn't say it would be *easy*. My point was that it is *not* easy for me, but I've found a way to *do* something about it, using obsolete machinery I got cheap...used. The US is swimming in very *good* obsolete machines, now that IBM has everybody brainwashed, and I suspect that terminals going for $50 here in Portland could give some "third world" site access for years to come. I realize that reliable power and telephone systems are a problem, but I suspect if more people sat down and figured "how we *can* do this" rather than "why we *can't*", there would be a lot more places heard from a lot sooner. A $50 used terminal, a small solar-cell setup, and a phone line reliable for 3 hours a day would be all many places would need for years. (The last is a serious problem. Let's see what we can do to get the Ham-patch made legal. Our phone was wiped out in a storm last Friday, and a Ham friend just happened by with his handset, and I was *very* impressed by the quality of the transmission. And that was just with a hand set.) My boyfriend runs an Amstrad PCW. Excellent machine, he got it complete with printer for $140, because it wasn't the "clone" model, and nobody knew what to do with it. These are machines that make the first room-size jobs look silly, but they're just so much garbage now. 1200baud modems now run about $35 used because everyone wants 9600, but they were the "hot" standard just a couple years ago when everybody had 300baud. I maintain it *can* be done...and if the people knew what it would mean to them to be able to talk with others in their field on a daily basis, they'd be clamoring for it. Never forget how much harder it is to hate "those guys" once you've been exchanging ideas on a personal level, either. I think peace might even break out some day.... Suze Hammond trifid@agora.rain.com
ccml@hippo.ru.ac.za (Mike Lawrie) (06/04/91)
In <1991Jun3.100523.17917@agora.rain.com> trifid@agora.rain.com (Roadster Racewerks) writes: >[low cost links to developing countries...] >I maintain it *can* be done...and if the people knew what it would mean to them >to be able to talk with others in their field on a daily basis, they'd be >clamoring for it. Never forget how much harder it is to hate "those guys" once >you've been exchanging ideas on a personal level, either. I think peace might >even break out some day.... Let's keep plugging this theme, because it is very correct IMHO. And apart from keeping in touch with the indigenous people, it is far more likely that visitors will be attracted to low-tech countries if they know that they can readily keep in touch with home base via email. Practical experience in this neck of the woods shows that good email links can be established with PCs and a modem, and the will to get on with it. And peace could break out - don't tell me, I've noticed the changes in my country since we got onto the networks. And folk that I communicate with develop an understanding of our problems, it all helps. Mike -- Mike Lawrie Director Computing Services, Rhodes University, South Africa .....................<ccml@hippo.ru.ac.za>.......................... Rhodes University condemns racism and racial segregation
laurie@iosys.UUCP (laurie butgereit) (06/04/91)
In article <ccml.675975025@hippo>, ccml@hippo.ru.ac.za (Mike Lawrie) writes: > In <1991Jun3.100523.17917@agora.rain.com> trifid@agora.rain.com (Roadster Racewerks) writes: > > >[low cost links to developing countries...] > >Never forget how much harder it is to hate "those guys" once > >you've been exchanging ideas on a personal level, either. I think peace might > >even break out some day.... > > And apart from keeping in touch with the indigenous people, That's a rather condescending way of putting things, Mike. The net should allow all people to communicate with all other people who want to participate - regardless of ethnic origin. > it is far > more likely that visitors will be attracted to low-tech countries if > they know that they can readily keep in touch with home base via email. I find that hard to believe. While email is fun, it isn't going to interfere with my choice of holiday spots. > Practical experience in this neck of the woods shows that good email links > can be established with PCs and a modem, and the will to get on with it. and the correct political beliefs :-( > And peace could break out - don't tell me, I've noticed the changes > in my country since we got onto the networks. And folk that I > communicate with develop an understanding of our problems, it all > helps. Yes, especially since people who don't believe as you do get banned from receiving international news. -- Laurie Butgereit laurie@iosys {uunet,olgb1,olnl1}!olsa99!iosys!laurie
G.Joly@cs.ucl.ac.uk (Gordon Joly) (06/06/91)
> [...] (deleted most) > > I maintain it *can* be done...and if the people knew what it would > mean to them to be able to talk with others in their field on a daily > basis, they'd be clamoring for it. Never forget how much harder it is > to hate "those guys" once you've been exchanging ideas on a personal > level, either. I think peace might even break out some day.... > > Suze Hammond > trifid@agora.rain.com Suze, What I may be trying to say is that you may be able to put up a solar cell, with a $50 (that food for ~100 days in some areas) terminal and a modem, to push data down a telehone line "reliable for 3 hours a day", but where are you are going to buy or exchange or cannibilise spare parts for any part of the equipment that breaks down? Gordon. P.S. My cup may be half empty, but I hope it also never full. An old zen proverb describes the master pouring tea, and the cup is brimming over. The student says "Look! The cup is full!". The master responds "How can you learn when you are also full with your own ideas." P.P.S I have been a licenced radio amateur for about 10 years. --- Gordon Joly +44 71 387 7050 ext 3716 Internet: G.Joly@cs.ucl.ac.uk UUCP: ...!{uunet,ukc}!ucl-cs!G.Joly Computer Science, University College London, Gower Street, LONDON WC1E 6BT Drop a utensil.
trifid@agora.rain.com (Roadster Racewerks) (06/07/91)
Ah, Gordon, I wish I'd realized you put this on the net, and not just email, as I only emialed my reply (I read mail first). I didn't bother to file my reply, so how about you posting it here for me, just to be fair? And next time, please don't Cc: to my mailbox. I get 20-odd pieces of mail a day, and I don't need to read it twice. Suze trifid@agora.rain.com
ccml@hippo.ru.ac.za (Mike Lawrie) (06/08/91)
In <1591@ucl-cs.uucp> G.Joly@cs.ucl.ac.uk (Gordon Joly) writes: >What I may be trying to say is that you may be able to put up a solar >cell, with a $50 (that food for ~100 days in some areas) terminal and >a modem, to push data down a telehone line "reliable for 3 hours a >day", but where are you are going to buy or exchange or cannibilise >spare parts for any part of the equipment that breaks down? What you are actually saying is a lot of trash, viz don't let anyone start because it is conceivable that something might possibly go wrong with their equipment and this could not get fixed. You have not the slightest idea of what can be done with a "mirrors and string" approach, and this represents a very disappointing but not atypical attitude from someone in a high-tech country. If you encourage something to get off the ground, you'd end up surprised at what results could be achieved, if you kill it because the sky might fall on your head, you get nowhere. Mike -- Mike Lawrie Director Computing Services, Rhodes University, South Africa .....................<ccml@hippo.ru.ac.za>.......................... Rhodes University condemns racism and racial segregation
trifid@agora.rain.com (Roadster Racewerks) (06/10/91)
Indeed. As I replied in email to Mr Joly (when I thought his article was a private letter), somehow Africans managed to get Jeeps, and parts, and fuel, etc., when they realized how useful they were. As soon as they realize how useful this is, they will find a way. Besides, in a world whrere barter is still commonplace, and women do much of the work *we* think of as "man's work", the concept of $100 is nothing like it is in a culture where money is the *only* medium of exchange.... As an aside: My favorite SysOp started her BBS five years ago on a Commodore-64. She was a mere data-entry clerk, with NO technical experience. Since then she has expanded her board into one of the most popular in our 1 million-person metro area, and learned how to build computers out of spare and used and re-condition- ed parts (because she still can't afford a NEW one the size she needs). Last weekend she installed a second hard-drive with a little help from a user, to handle the expected traffic she will be getting as a Fidonet node. She offers all this service absolutely free...(although we have all chipped in money, spares, or barter when a modem has "died" or some such minor disaster). She does it because she enjoys knowing all of us, and doing something useful for others. She also arranges two or three local parties a year so we can meet each other if we wish. One of her users is blind, by the way. I'm sure lots of people told the blind user she couldn't do this either... My friend isn't a technician, a businessman, an academic, or a student. She isn't even slightly rich (by US or European standards) in fact, she may have to move because her landlady is raising her rent. According to a lot of you, she can't exist... Yet I'm sure there are people of roughly analogous character all over, as long as no one tells them what they're doing is "impossible" they'll just do it... as soon as they see a motivation that makes sense in *their* context. Suze trifid@agora.rain.com
G.Joly@cs.ucl.ac.uk (Gordon Joly) (06/10/91)
Roadster Racewerks writes: > > > Ah, Gordon, I wish I'd realized you put this on the net, and not just email, as > I only emialed my reply (I read mail first). I didn't bother to file my reply, > so how about you posting it here for me, just to be fair? > > And next time, please don't Cc: to my mailbox. I get 20-odd pieces of mail a > day, and I don't need to read it twice. > > Suze > trifid@agora.rain.com OOPS or NotOOPS? I "cc" back to the original poster as a courtesy to enable them to think about a reply before it hits the board. I usually do this if the emissive is contentious. I was definitely replying to a mail to this list, and not to personal mail. I would welcome any personal feedback on this, rather than to the list, since we are getting off the point. Or are we? ____ Gordon Joly +44 71 387 7050 ext 3716 Internet: G.Joly@cs.ucl.ac.uk UUCP: ...!{uunet,ukc}!ucl-cs!G.Joly Computer Science, University College London, Gower Street, LONDON WC1E 6BT Drop a utensil.
G.Joly@cs.ucl.ac.uk (Gordon Joly) (06/10/91)
Mike Lawrie writes: > In <1591@ucl-cs.uucp> G.Joly@cs.ucl.ac.uk (Gordon Joly) writes: > > >What I may be trying to say is that you may be able to put up a solar > >cell, with a $50 (that food for ~100 days in some areas) terminal and > >a modem, to push data down a telehone line "reliable for 3 hours a > >day", but where are you are going to buy or exchange or cannibilise > >spare parts for any part of the equipment that breaks down? > > What you are actually saying is a lot of trash, viz don't let > anyone start because it is conceivable that something might > possibly go wrong with their equipment and this could not get > fixed. > > You have not the slightest idea of what can be done with a "mirrors > and string" approach, and this represents a very disappointing > but not atypical attitude from someone in a high-tech country. If > you encourage something to get off the ground, you'd end up surprised > at what results could be achieved, if you kill it because the sky > might fall on your head, you get nowhere. > > Mike > -- > Mike Lawrie > Director Computing Services, Rhodes University, South Africa > .....................<ccml@hippo.ru.ac.za>.......................... > Rhodes University condemns racism and racial segregation Hmm... I am lost. I thought I was saying if you did not have bread, having a terminal was not high on the list of priorities. Let them send email? Gordon. ____ Gordon Joly +44 71 387 7050 ext 3716 Internet: G.Joly@cs.ucl.ac.uk UUCP: ...!{uunet,ukc}!ucl-cs!G.Joly Computer Science, University College London, Gower Street, LONDON WC1E 6BT
trifid@agora.rain.com (Roadster Racewerks) (06/11/91)
Yeah...we're getting off the point. I didn't mean to imply you weren't being "cricket" with me, I was just surprised since I have *heavy* correspondence, and no one else I know does this. Probably a European convention...I can see it might have its uses. But doesn't it waste a lot of bandwidth? Suze trifid@agora.rain.com
G.Joly@cs.ucl.ac.uk (Gordon Joly) (06/17/91)
Mike Lawrie writes: > In <1591@ucl-cs.uucp> G.Joly@cs.ucl.ac.uk (Gordon Joly) writes: > > >What I may be trying to say is that you may be able to put up a solar > >cell, with a $50 (that food for ~100 days in some areas) terminal and > >a modem, to push data down a telehone line "reliable for 3 hours a > >day", but where are you are going to buy or exchange or cannibilise > >spare parts for any part of the equipment that breaks down? > > What you are actually saying is a lot of trash, viz don't let > anyone start because it is conceivable that something might > possibly go wrong with their equipment and this could not get > fixed. > > You have not the slightest idea of what can be done with a "mirrors > and string" approach, and this represents a very disappointing > but not atypical attitude from someone in a high-tech country. If > you encourage something to get off the ground, you'd end up surprised > at what results could be achieved, if you kill it because the sky > might fall on your head, you get nowhere. > > Mike > -- > Mike Lawrie > Director Computing Services, Rhodes University, South Africa > .....................<ccml@hippo.ru.ac.za>.......................... > Rhodes University condemns racism and racial segregation Re-reading this message again underlines a thought that has been bugging me. I find it hard enough to be understood in my own department, let alone in the Sotherm Hemisphere. I also wonder whether "email" is the medium of choice for all communitities in all parts of the world. With the X.400 protocol, voice-mail and pictures are possible. Anyway, it has be English or Spanish if it is going to be spoken/written. The Chinese dialects and Japanese are not the easiest for email transmission, as yet. I do not know about Cyrillic. Gordon. ____ Gordon Joly +44 71 387 7050 ext 3716 Internet: G.Joly@cs.ucl.ac.uk UUCP: ...!{uunet,ukc}!ucl-cs!G.Joly Computer Science, University College London, Gower Street, LONDON WC1E 6BT Order is paramount in anarchy.
joe@athena.mit.edu (Joseph C Wang) (06/18/91)
In article <1632@ucl-cs.uucp> G.Joly@cs.ucl.ac.uk (Gordon Joly) writes: >Anyway, it has be English or Spanish if it is going to be >spoken/written. The Chinese dialects and Japanese are not the easiest >for email transmission, as yet. I do not know about Cyrillic. Actually, it's relatively simple to transmit Chinese E-Mail. All you need is a PC with something like CC-DOS to generate the characters, and some sort of utility like uuencode to make sure that the high order bits don't get lost. I'm subscribed to two mailing lists in Chinese. As for Kanji Japanese, I'm sure similar utilities exist. The "fj" hierarchy of news groups transmit Kanji Japanese. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joseph Wang (joe@athena.mit.edu) Wake Up! Wake Up! 450 Memorial Drive C-111 All who wish not to be slaves. Cambridge, MA 02139
bpendlet@bambam.dsd.es.com (Bob Pendleton) (06/18/91)
In article <1632@ucl-cs.uucp>, G.Joly@cs.ucl.ac.uk (Gordon Joly) writes: > I also wonder whether "email" is the medium of choice for all > communitities in all parts of the world. With the X.400 protocol, > voice-mail and pictures are possible. > Anyway, it has be English or Spanish if it is going to be > spoken/written. The Chinese dialects and Japanese are not the easiest > for email transmission, as yet. I do not know about Cyrillic. I know what I'm about to say sounds a bit humorous in light of the level of computer technology being discussed here, but... An X based mailer could send the font name as part of the text, and encode the text using the appropriate glyph indices. That way, any alphabet can be used to send and receive email.Another alternative would be to just send compressed bit maps. A slightly higher level of technology gets you a lot of flexibility. -- Bob Pendleton, speaking only for myself. bpendlet@dsd.es.com or decwrl!esunix!bpendlet or hellgate!esunix!bpendlet Tools, not rules.
trifid@agora.rain.com (Roadster Racewerks) (06/18/91)
If you read soc.culture.soviet you may discover that although Cyrillic fonts and programs are available, they are such a pain to use that everything is either in English or written phonetically. The Spanish groups are mostly in Spanish, and soc.culture.celtic alternaes a good deal, but is predominantly in English. English is actually a good choice as an international languAGE for more reason than that the US is big and powerful and there was once a British Empire. As it evolved from several different languages, it dropped a lot of complications, (unfortunatel y it also developed terrible spelling) sand picked up many words no "respectable" language would have assimilated. It's a sort of trash-heap made of lots of bits. This makes it very flexible. It can pick up stuff and take it in with little distortion and with no "official" committee to rule on how to insert it into the syntax. Quick and dirty, as the said... Suze Hammond trifid@agora.rain.com ps Sorry about the typos. I'm on another machine and there's a mismatch with some commands...unfortunately including "delete"!
G.Joly@cs.ucl.ac.uk (Gordon Joly) (06/18/91)
Bob Pendleton writes: > In article <1632@ucl-cs.uucp>, G.Joly@cs.ucl.ac.uk (Gordon Joly) writes: > > > I also wonder whether "email" is the medium of choice for all > > communitities in all parts of the world. With the X.400 protocol, > > voice-mail and pictures are possible. > > > Anyway, it has be English or Spanish if it is going to be > > spoken/written. The Chinese dialects and Japanese are not the easiest > > for email transmission, as yet. I do not know about Cyrillic. > > I know what I'm about to say sounds a bit humorous in light of the > level of computer technology being discussed here, but... > > An X based mailer could send the font name as part of the text, and > encode the text using the appropriate glyph indices. That way, any > alphabet can be used to send and receive email.Another alternative > would be to just send compressed bit maps. > > A slightly higher level of technology gets you a lot of flexibility. > > -- > Bob Pendleton, speaking only for myself. > bpendlet@dsd.es.com or decwrl!esunix!bpendlet or hellgate!esunix!bpendlet > > Tools, not rules My apologies; there are plans for extended ACSII (16 bit?) which would allow such characters to be transmitted. I had forgotenn about the idea. ____ Gordon Joly +44 71 387 7050 ext 3716 Internet: G.Joly@cs.ucl.ac.uk UUCP: ...!{uunet,ukc}!ucl-cs!G.Joly Computer Science, University College London, Gower Street, LONDON WC1E 6BT Order is paramount in anarchy.
G.Joly@cs.ucl.ac.uk (Gordon Joly) (06/19/91)
Suze Hammond (mis-types and:-) writes > English is actually a good choice as an international languAGE for > more reason than that the US is big and powerful and there was once a > British Empire. Indeed. My entirte point. Electronic colonialism!!! Not what we really want. > As it evolved from several different languages, it dropped a lot of > complications, (unfortunatel y it also developed terrible spelling) > sand picked up many words no "respectable" language would have > assimilated. Spelling? Whay's wrong with GHOTI? (That's a phonetically equivalent FISH to you:-) > ps > Sorry about the typos. I'm on another machine and there's a mismatch > with some commands...unfortunately including "delete"! Gordon Gordon Joly +44 71 387 7050 ext 3716 Internet: G.Joly@cs.ucl.ac.uk UUCP: ...!{uunet,ukc}!ucl-cs!G.Joly Computer Science, University College London, Gower Street, LONDON WC1E 6BT Order is paramount in anarchy.