bpendlet@bambam.dsd.es.com (Bob Pendleton) (05/29/91)
In article <4448@aipna.ed.ac.uk>, reiter@aifh.ed.ac.uk writes: > I just received this announcement of a new BITNET mailing list for networks > in Latin American and the Caribbean. I haven't bothered to translate it into > English - I assume if you can't read Spanish, you probably won't want to > subscribe! I've had some form of network access for most of the last 10 years. In all that time I've only seen a handful of articles in a language other than English. Considering the number of countries on the net it seems odd to me that I only see English in the news groups. Is English used for posting local news in non-English speaking countries? Or is Engish only used when posting news with World distribution? Does the dominance of English on the net hurt the nets acceptance in the world? Or am I suffering from a sampling error caused by my location? -- Bob Pendleton, speaking only for myself. bpendlet@dsd.es.com or decwrl!esunix!bpendlet or hellgate!esunix!bpendlet Tools, not rules.
ts@uwasa.fi (Timo Salmi) (05/29/91)
In article <1991May28.172900.11325@dsd.es.com> bpendlet@dsd.es.com writes: >In article <4448@aipna.ed.ac.uk>, reiter@aifh.ed.ac.uk writes: : >I've had some form of network access for most of the last 10 years. In >all that time I've only seen a handful of articles in a language other >than English. Considering the number of countries on the net it seems >odd to me that I only see English in the news groups. > >Is English used for posting local news in non-English speaking >countries? Or is Engish only used when posting news with World >distribution? Does the dominance of English on the net hurt the nets >acceptance in the world? : I think that the answer to this issue is simple. For _practical_ reasons we need a common language to communicate in a global network, and we have only one such laguage. Local news are posted (at least in the European countries I know) in local language(s), with ocasional English on the side. Now why should the dominance of the common language, which we all more or less understand, be adverse to the nets acceptance. What a better way to form a gloabal community and bring down local isolation and xenophobia. ................................................................... Prof. Timo Salmi Moderating at garbo.uwasa.fi anonymous ftp archives 128.214.12.37 School of Business Studies, University of Vaasa, SF-65101, Finland Internet: ts@chyde.uwasa.fi Funet: gado::salmi Bitnet: salmi@finfun
kdr@doc.ic.ac.uk (K D Rigotti) (05/30/91)
In article <1991May29.095807.17756@uwasa.fi> ts@uwasa.fi (Timo Salmi) writes: : >Is English used for posting local news in non-English speaking >countries? Or is English only used when posting news with World >distribution? Does the dominance of English on the net hurt the nets >acceptance in the world? : Now why should the dominance of the common language, which we all more or less understand, be adverse to the nets acceptance. What a better way to form a global community and bring down local isolation and xenophobia. Prof. Timo Salmi I'm all in favour of a common language but I think standardising on the current state of English is aiming rather low. It would be better, and in the long run result in a more expressive language, if the other languages were allowed more 'air time'. I'm not suggesting you post in Finnish but if you had a very particular meaning to express and could do so better in your own language then you should do so (providing a translation of course) so that we can all learn. Words are assimulated anyway but if we can accelerate the process so much the better. Believe me the English would love the rest of the world to speak our language (perhaps someday even the Americans ;-) but merging is much more sensible than wholesale migration. BTW The net has its own language anyway, and there is no reason why this should be restricted to daft acronyms IHMO. Lets have a smorgasbord of opinions and le mot juste not just a word. Kevin
ts@uwasa.fi (Timo Salmi) (05/31/91)
In article <KDR.91May30155717@dirty.doc.ic.ac.uk> kdr@doc.ic.ac.uk (K D Rigotti) writes: : >the better. Believe me the English would love the rest of the world to >speak our language (perhaps someday even the Americans ;-) but merging is >much more sensible than wholesale migration. : Sidetracking from the original subject slightly, I feel that English has become so widespread (also a bit thanks to computer nets) that the English have no special license to it any more. Those days are long gone, at least since the Second World War. To me the English, Americans etc just happen to speak English as their native language, and that's all there is to it. No awe, no divine aura attached. ................................................................... Prof. Timo Salmi Moderating at garbo.uwasa.fi anonymous ftp archives 128.214.12.37 School of Business Studies, University of Vaasa, SF-65101, Finland Internet: ts@chyde.uwasa.fi Funet: gado::salmi Bitnet: salmi@finfun
kdr@doc.ic.ac.uk (K D Rigotti) (06/07/91)
In article <1991May30.193217.3017@uwasa.fi> ts@uwasa.fi (Timo Salmi) writes:
Sidetracking from the original subject slightly, I feel that English
has become so widespread (also a bit thanks to computer nets) that
the English have no special license to it any more. Those days are
long gone, at least since the Second World War. To me the English,
Americans etc just happen to speak English as their native language,
and that's all there is to it. No awe, no divine aura attached.
Very true, if anything the average Briton knows less about his first
language than many who learn it as a second. It's quite embarrassing to
talk to a foreign student and find that he has a better vocabulary than you
do :-)
To get back to the point of the thread ...
If we don't keep an eye on its development it is possible that we will
finish up with a ``Netspeak'' that just doesn't have the expressive power
of *any* of the constituent languages --- rather it would be a pidgin
everything. This would be a sad loss to all of us. The net represents a
golden opportunity to return to the days of a single language for all
research and advanced thinking (pity latin was so awkward), so lets not
cripple it from the start.
When a group of people go out for a chinese meal you don't all buy separate
dishes and just eat your own, you buy a good selection and take bits from all
of them. Building a language (and whether you realise it or not that *is*
what is happening here) should follow the same principles.
Kevin
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"but of course you want a kettle that makes toast, its progress!"joanna@gargoyle.uchicago.edu (Joanna Bryson) (06/18/91)
In <KDR.91Jun6204153@dirty.doc.ic.ac.uk> kdr@doc.ic.ac.uk (K D Rigotti) writes: >If we don't keep an eye on its development it is possible that we will >finish up with a ``Netspeak'' that just doesn't have the expressive power >of *any* of the constituent languages --- rather it would be a pidgin >everything. This would be a sad loss to all of us. The net represents a >golden opportunity to return to the days of a single language for all >research and advanced thinking (pity latin was so awkward), so lets not >cripple it from the start. And will students learn our new improved language in highschool? Languages develop naturally to best serve the communication needs of the people using them, so to an extent I think any discussion about guiding this progress is silly, but I can't pass up this point: In this of all groups we should remember that we WANT news to be as accessable as possible to new users, and a specialized vocabulary is not a good start. How long would it have taken you to figure out what IMHO stands for if you didn't ask the user next to you? Esp. if you were not a native speaker familiar with the phrase? I'm not some kind of linguistic purist, and I don't have problems with people posting in languages other than English, but let's remember that the fall of Latin wasn't caused by its grammer. It fell when Science and Catholicism were reclaimed for and by the people whose lives were being affected by them. Joanna ===== I wish there was a true love / I wish there was a great art I wish there always was enough / But I'd not want if I were smart joanna@gargoyle.uchicago.edu Want Not Want Not -- the Roches =====
kdr@doc.ic.ac.uk (K D Rigotti) (06/20/91)
Yikes! I'm not suggesting for a moment that we try and engineer a language -
they tried that with Esperanto and within a fairly short time it had started
to diverge again. Yes, I know language is a living thing that can't be forced
in a particular direction. I'm just arguing for diversity and the
encouragement of new words into the language. As for IMHO, et al just
remember how OK started out. Now that hasn't done too badly has it...
Kevin
--------
Disclaimer : the views expressed above are done so with the freedom from bias
given by total ignorance :-)
peter@ficc.ferranti.com (peter da silva) (06/21/91)
kdr@doc.ic.ac.uk (K D Rigotti): > golden opportunity to return to the days of a single language for all > research and advanced thinking (pity latin was so awkward), so lets not > cripple it from the start. Latin? Awkward? Not really. At least with Latin the "irregular" words were the exception rather than the rule. The structure of the language is really quite clean. -- Peter da Silva; Ferranti International Controls Corporation; +1 713 274 5180; Sugar Land, TX 77487-5012; `-_-' "Have you hugged your wolf, today?"