[comp.admin.policy] Question about Internet access

joseph@panix.uucp (Joseph R. Skoler) (05/20/91)

This question might have been answered before.  If so, I apologize.


Also, if there's another place to ask this question, I'd appreciate 
someone letting me know about it.

I'm associated with a large (nationwide) tractor-trailer distributor,
and would like to know what benefit it would be to the company for it
to get Internet access.

This is really a broader question of what benefits all companies have
by being connected.

I suppose one benefit is the connectivity between each of its branches.
But, I assume there's much more to be gained.

Also, how does a large corporation become connected?  Would local 
colleges be willing (in general) to give out some internet addresses?


Thanks very much,

Joseph R. Skoler

UUCP:      cmcl2!panix!kc2yu!joseph
UUCP:      panix!joseph
BITNET:    skohc@cunyvm.bitnet
INTERNET:  ak526@cleveland.freenet.edu
AMPR NET:  kc2yu@kc2yu.ampr.org  [44.68.32.56]
PBBS:      kc2yu@nn2z.nj.usa.na

jona@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Jon Alperin) (05/21/91)

In article <1991May20.150134.11699@panix.uucp>, joseph@panix.uucp (Joseph R. Skoler) writes:
|> 
|> 
|> This question might have been answered before.  If so, I apologize.
|> 
|> 
|> I'm associated with a large (nationwide) tractor-trailer distributor,
|> and would like to know what benefit it would be to the company for it
|> to get Internet access.

	Internet cannot be used for business purposes. It is mainly for research and educational purposes. It is also heavily used by system administrators all over the world, as well as developers of software, to exchange ideas and post problems which they cannot solve (and yes,...there is a lot of personal
stuff that flows back and forth). 

    You could use the internet for e-mail gateways, but I wouldn't trust
sensitive business items (or stuff that you can't afford to lose during a transmission).

|> 
|> Joseph R. Skoler
|> 
|> UUCP:      cmcl2!panix!kc2yu!joseph
|> UUCP:      panix!joseph
|> BITNET:    skohc@cunyvm.bitnet
|> INTERNET:  ak526@cleveland.freenet.edu
|> AMPR NET:  kc2yu@kc2yu.ampr.org  [44.68.32.56]
|> PBBS:      kc2yu@nn2z.nj.usa.na

-- 
Jon Alperin
Bell Communications Research

---> Internet: jona@iscp.bellcore.com
---> Voicenet: (908) 699-8674
---> UUNET: uunet!bcr!jona

* All opinions and stupid questions are my own *

ted@nmsu.edu (Ted Dunning) (05/21/91)

In article <1991May20.170041.12885@bellcore.bellcore.com>
jona@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Jon Alperin) mistakenly writes:

   In article <1991May20.150134.11699@panix.uucp>, joseph@panix.uucp (Joseph R. Skoler) writes:
   |> I ... would like to know what benefit it would be to the company for it
   |> to get Internet access.

   Internet cannot be used for business purposes. It is mainly for
   research and educational purposes. ...

   You could use the internet for e-mail gateways, but I wouldn't
   trust sensitive business items (or stuff that you can't afford to
   lose during a transmission).



in fact, the Internet can be used for whatever you want.  Certain
_parts_ of the internet such as the NSFnet are funded by the NSF on
the condition that they be used non-commercially, and certain other
parts are private (such as DEC's or HP's internal networks), but the
Internet is not a monolithic entity with a single consistent policy on
acceptable use.  There are a number of commercial suppliers of
internet access who would be happy to provide Internet access to
virtually anyone. 
--

if feeling bad is a justification for not living, 
    then living is a justification for feeling good.

jona@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Jon Alperin) (05/21/91)

oops,.... I was thinking of usenet, not the internet...
I guess I need to change my disclaimer......
-- 
Jon Alperin
Bell Communications Research

---> Internet: jona@iscp.bellcore.com
---> Voicenet: (908) 699-8674
---> UUNET: uunet!bcr!jona

* All opinions and stupid questions are my own *
			  ^^^^^^^^^ answers too!

rbraun@spdcc.COM (Rich Braun) (05/21/91)

Indeed, there are several companies (NearNet, et al) which have recently
gotten together to provide new backbones for commercial Internet service.
These backbones only provide regional service at the present time, but
my guess is that world-wide non-restricted service will arrive soon.

If your network traffic is confined to, for example, the NearNet backbone
(and avoids NSFnet), you only have to play by the rules of NearNet, and
not of the U.S. Government.

I wouldn't try to use the Internet as a means of setting up dedicated
business applications between branches of a company.  (Things like
credit-card transactions or manufacturing process control...)  But for
research purposes, it's great.

-rich

birchall@pilot.njin.net (Official Random) (05/21/91)

Regarding setting things up between branches of a company, wouldn't the 
(hopefully-soon-to-be-in-use) ISDN be more effective for that anyway?  I 
know McDonald's (the fastfood people) have been experimenting with ISDN 
around chicago.... 
 
 But then again, that's more or less just taking Internet technology and 
applying it to the public service telephone network....
 
 -sh
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan Birchall		          [ Shag ]    			  birchall@njin
NJIN Official Random					birchall@pilot.njin.net
Promoting Alt.BBS.Internet, QuartzBBS/QuartzParadise, and clues for sale cheap.

barmar@think.com (Barry Margolin) (05/21/91)

In article <1991May20.150134.11699@panix.uucp> joseph@panix.uucp (Joseph R. Skoler) writes:
>I'm associated with a large (nationwide) tractor-trailer distributor,
>and would like to know what benefit it would be to the company for it
>to get Internet access.
>
>This is really a broader question of what benefits all companies have
>by being connected.
>
>I suppose one benefit is the connectivity between each of its branches.
>But, I assume there's much more to be gained.

Yes, connectivity of branches is one benefit, although you could achieve
this relatively easily with leased lines connecting your branches.  And
this would be more secure, since you wouldn't be sharing this network with
lots of other people.

One benefit of connecting to the Internet is professional management of the
cross-country links, and potentially increased reliability.  The Internet
has many redundant paths, with the intent of providing almost full
connectivity even when individual links are down.

By connecting to the Internet you potentially gain data connectivity to
other companies with which you do business.  You also gain connectivity to
organizations that provide access to databases or other services.
Currently there aren't too many of these (things like Compuserve and Dow
Jones are currently on dialup networks such as Tymnet and Telenet), but
more are popping up.

For those of us in the R&D industry, we get connectivity to universities.

>Also, how does a large corporation become connected?  Would local 
>colleges be willing (in general) to give out some internet addresses?

In general, you can't just get Internet addresses from local colleges.
They are generally connected to government-subsidized research & education
networks, so their links can't be used for commercial purposes.  Many of
these networking providers also prohibit subscribers from reselling the
service to third parties.

There are a few commercial networking providers.  The two I know of offhand
are PSInet and Alternet.  Sorry, I don't know phone numbers offhand.

-- 
Barry Margolin, Thinking Machines Corp.

barmar@think.com
{uunet,harvard}!think!barmar

mav@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Michael Vance) (05/21/91)

Does anybody know anything about Public Access to the Internet?  I'm
looking for public access telnet servers or something with the same
capabilities in the Washington, D.C. and Detroit, MI areas.

Basically I just want to be able to log on to my account here at NU while
I'm in DC or Detroit without having to rack up incredible long distance
charges.  All solutions are accepted.

Please reply by e-mail.  Thanks.

-Michael Vance
Northwestern University
mav@casbah.acns.nwu.edu

mcovingt@athena.cs.uga.edu (Michael A. Covington) (05/22/91)

A simple solution for a small corporation would be to use MCI Mail,
which can send and receive messages from the Internet.

MCI Mail is very easy for beginners to use.
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------
Michael A. Covington | Artificial Intelligence Programs
The University of Georgia  |  Athens, GA 30602   U.S.A.
-------------------------------------------------------

chip@osh3.OSHA.GOV (Chip Yamasaki) (05/22/91)

In <May.20.18.55.12.1991.21239@pilot.njin.net> birchall@pilot.njin.net (Official Random) writes:

>Regarding setting things up between branches of a company, wouldn't the 
>(hopefully-soon-to-be-in-use) ISDN be more effective for that anyway?  I 
>know McDonald's (the fastfood people) have been experimenting with ISDN 
>around chicago.... 
> 
> But then again, that's more or less just taking Internet technology and 
>applying it to the public service telephone network....

And how about non-research government applications.  Could we use a UUNET
connection, usenet links and possibly the Internet (and its companions)
to act as a gateway between users in a government agency and the outside
(like MCI-Mail, etc.) without meeting with public (or Internet) scrutiny?
-- 
--
Charles "Chip" Yamasaki
chip@oshcomm.osha.gov

mdf@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Mark D Freeman) (05/22/91)

In <1991May21.182416.12784@athena.cs.uga.edu> mcovingt@athena.cs.uga.edu (Michael A. Covington) writes:
>A simple solution for a small corporation would be to use MCI Mail,
>which can send and receive messages from the Internet.

CompuServe, my employer, also offers an email gateway to the Internet,
along with AT&T Mail, and soon to X.400 and MHS-based LAN email
systems.




-- 
Mark D. Freeman					M.FREEMAN@csi.CompuServe.COM
Manager, Microcomputer Services					  70003,4277
CompuServe; Columbus, OH			 Posted from a guest account
(614) 457-8600 x2818	          		at The Ohio State University

joshua@Spies.COM (Joshua Geller) (05/22/91)

In article <124060@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu> mdf@tut.cis.osu-state.edu (Mark D. 
Freeman) writes:
|>In <1991May21.182416.12784@athena.cs.uga.edu> mcovingt@athena.cs.uga.edu 
|>(Michael A. Covington) writes:
|>>A simple solution for a small corporation would be to use MCI Mail,
|>>which can send and receive messages from the Internet.

|>CompuServe, my employer, also offers an email gateway to the Internet,
|>along with AT&T Mail, and soon to X.400 and MHS-based LAN email
|>systems.

Compu$erve, your employer, periodically bounces massive quantities of mail all 
across the internet, and BITNET etc etc. I have here in my account a 68+ kbyte 
file that consists of nothing but bounced mail messages which were posted by
me to a mailing list, and bounced by Compu$erve, your employer, from the one
Compu$erve (your employer) subscriber who is on said mailing list. Now multiply
that times posts by users perhaps a thousand per week for this mailing list
alone). Now how many subscribers do you have who use mailing lists on the 
internet? Now how much are you charging them not to receive their mail? Now
how much >public< bandwidth are you wasting? Compu$erve, your employer, should
straighten up their act before you talk about their 'email gateway to the 
internet'.


josh

rbraun@spdcc.COM (Rich Braun) (05/22/91)

mdf@tut.cis.osu-state.edu (Mark D. Freeman) writes:
>>A simple solution for a small corporation would be to use MCI Mail,
>>which can send and receive messages from the Internet.
>
>CompuServe, my employer, also offers an email gateway to the Internet...

As do Telenet (not my employer), uunet, et al.  Probably there's a heading
in the Yellow Pages for this, by now.  Ask around.  UUCP connections to
friendly local Unix shops are generally a lot cheaper than what these
commercial companies will charge, if your usage is low.

Keep in mind that CompuServe, MCI Mail, uunet, and Telenet offer
services which bear little resemblance to the full suite of Internet
services.  The gateways presently tend to be e-mail only, and don't
support real-time connections, high-volume file transfers, and so on.
They also don't carry netnews, to my knowledge.  This will all change
in the not-too-distant future, I would expect.

-rich

chip@osh3.OSHA.GOV (Chip Yamasaki) (05/23/91)

In <7607@spdcc.SPDCC.COM> rbraun@spdcc.COM (Rich Braun) writes:

>mdf@tut.cis.osu-state.edu (Mark D. Freeman) writes:
>>>A simple solution for a small corporation would be to use MCI Mail,
>>>which can send and receive messages from the Internet.
>>
>>CompuServe, my employer, also offers an email gateway to the Internet...

>As do Telenet (not my employer), uunet, et al.  Probably there's a heading
>in the Yellow Pages for this, by now.  Ask around.  UUCP connections to
>friendly local Unix shops are generally a lot cheaper than what these
>commercial companies will charge, if your usage is low.

>Keep in mind that CompuServe, MCI Mail, uunet, and Telenet offer
>services which bear little resemblance to the full suite of Internet
>services.  The gateways presently tend to be e-mail only, and don't
>support real-time connections, high-volume file transfers, and so on.
>They also don't carry netnews, to my knowledge.  This will all change
>in the not-too-distant future, I would expect.

I certainly wouldn't group UUNET in this category.  Check the path on
this response.  I am getting my netnews feed through UUNET, and I
understand that this is what their primary purpose is.

As for high volume transfers and real-time connections, don't include
UUNET here either.  They offer a connection to AlterNet which is IP
connected to the Internet (I believe).  That's the same IP services that
the Internet provides.  They cetainly would be happy to transfer as much
data as you are willing to pay the connect charges (a reasonable
$2.60/hr) for. 

Where real-time is concerned, I sent an E-Mail message to The
Netherlands and was thrilled to geta response back in an hour.  If I had
an AlterNet connection it would have been 45 minutes sooner.  I know
this isn't real-time, but the message made it from the senders box to
UUNET through a real-time SMTP relay and UUNET can't help it if I can't
afford AlterNet :-).

You are right on Compuserve (although they offer so much on their own),
and MCI Mail (they have a LOT of corporate customers already
subscribing though).  I did think that Telenet was real-time though. 
Basically, I think all of these services have their own merit and are
far superior to a plain old 300 bps modem and dumb terminal.
-- 
--
Charles "Chip" Yamasaki
chip@oshcomm.osha.gov

mdf@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Mark D Freeman) (05/27/91)

In <1991May22.050647.11202@Spies.COM> joshua@Spies.COM (Joshua Geller) writes:
>In article <124060@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu> mdf@tut.cis.osu-state.edu (Mark D. 
>Freeman) writes:
>|>In <1991May21.182416.12784@athena.cs.uga.edu> mcovingt@athena.cs.uga.edu 
>|>(Michael A. Covington) writes:
>|>>A simple solution for a small corporation would be to use MCI Mail,
>|>>which can send and receive messages from the Internet.
>
>|>CompuServe, my employer, also offers an email gateway to the Internet,
>|>along with AT&T Mail, and soon to X.400 and MHS-based LAN email
>|>systems.
>
>Compu$erve, your employer, periodically bounces massive quantities of mail all 
>across the internet, and BITNET etc etc.


Josh,

I'm sorryt you've had such trouble with our Internet Gateway.  The
following comments should be understood in the context that I don't
speak for CompuServe in an official capacity here.  (Basically, I just
coordinate our in-house PCs, and have nothing whatsoever to do with our
Internet gateway.)

Our Internet gateway is a system at the Ohio State University which has
had a lot of reliability problems.  It was put together (a few
executables here, a few huge shell scripts there...) as an experiment.
It worked so well that it became a product.  The product became so
successful that it is overwhelming the resources originally assigned to
it.  I am certainly not assigning the blame to OSU, as no one knew how
much or how fast the volume would grow.  However, they (obviously)
cannot reliably handle our current volume for us.

So, we are working full-speed to bring the gateway in-house, where we
hope to have it show the same > 99.96% reliability as we achieve with
the rest of our systems.  I'm not sure, but I think we'll have a 56Kb
link from a set of redundant UNIX boxes in one of our computer rooms
directly to uunet.  As these systems will be dedicated to our email
gateway, service should be much better than our current setup.  With
luck, the changeover will be completed in July.

- Mark
-- 
Mark D. Freeman					M.FREEMAN@csi.CompuServe.COM
Manager, Microcomputer Services					  70003,4277
CompuServe; Columbus, OH			 Posted from a guest account
(614) 457-8600 x2818	          		at The Ohio State University

lee@wang.com (Lee Story) (05/29/91)

In article <1991May20.150134.11699@panix.uucp> joseph@panix.uucp (Joseph R. Skoler) writes:
   I'm associated with a large (nationwide) tractor-trailer distributor,
   and would like to know what benefit it would be to the company for it
   to get Internet access.
   [....]
   Also, how does a large corporation become connected?

I've read some of the other responses to this, and am surprised that most
posters are as ignorant of the rules and mechanics as I am.  Here goes:

Advantages: 

1. Fast and pretty reliable email to virtually all universities and
   computer/communications R&D-related companies, plus most smaller
   colleges and many other corporations.

2. INTERACTIVE access to public data archives (uunet, government, many
   colleges and universities) by ftp.  This greatly improves on access
   by email only (getting a directory listing one day, downloading
   through a mail server the next, or paying a service like uunet to
   perform the retrieval).

3. Possible high-speed net news feed (though you'll have to arrange for
   this IN ADDITION to the Internet access).

Contacts:  (these folks might be able to sell you service, or point you
to the right place)

1.  AlterNet, run by UUNET Comm. Services, phone 703-876-5050, email
    info@uunet.uu.net  (I'm not sure that AlterNet is directly
    interconnected with the research networks.  Can someone confirm?
    UUNET also offers net news services.)

2.  NEARnet, phone 617-873-8730, email jrugo@nic.near.net
    (Research users only?)

3.  PSInet, (no address)
--

------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Lee Story (lee@wang.com) Wang Laboratories, Inc.
     (Boston and New Hampshire AMC, and Merrimack Valley Paddlers)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

ebersman@uunet.uu.net (Paul Ebersman) (05/29/91)

In <LEE.91May28150915@meercat.wang.com> lee@wang.com (Lee Story) writes:

>1.  AlterNet, run by UUNET Comm. Services, phone 703-876-5050, email
>    info@uunet.uu.net  (I'm not sure that AlterNet is directly
>    interconnected with the research networks.  Can someone confirm?
>    UUNET also offers net news services.)

We are connected to the NSFNet backbone via redundant T1's and give
Internet connectivity to any AlterNet customer, pending NSF approval.
All AlterNet customers who have wanted Internet so far have been
approved.
-- 
                   Paul A. Ebersman @ UUNET Communications
                   uunet!ebersman or ebersman@uunet.uu.net
       The difference between theory and practice in practice is greater
           than the difference between theory and practice in theory.

rbraun@spdcc.COM (Rich Braun) (05/29/91)

lee@wang.com (Lee Story) writes:
>2.  NEARnet, phone 617-873-8730, email jrugo@nic.near.net
>    (Research users only?)

NEARnet stands for "New England Academic & Research Network", though it's
not limited to research only.  Their January marketing blurb includes
in its target audience "development staff in industry" and "anyone whose
work requires interacting with members of [the research environment]".
It is working in cooperation with some commercial enterprises which have
little to do with research, so I suspect there really isn't a limitation,
provided that non-research traffic is limited to NEARnet itself.  It
was created to provide high-speed 10M microwave links which didn't
exist before the last couple of years, between the six hub sites (Boston
University, Harvard, MIT, Lincoln Laboratories, Prospect Hill, and BBN)
and others which have more recently joined.

Disclaimer: I'm not affiliated with NEARnet, so take these words with a
grain of salt.  I'm keeping in touch with those who are developing a
100M fiber-optic network in the Prospect Hill industrial park, which
should provide future access to NEARnet for my company.

-rich
(P.S.  Hi Lee, welcome to The Net!  How's Wang?)

rsalz@bbn.com (Rich Salz) (06/03/91)

In <7679@spdcc.SPDCC.COM> rbraun@spdcc.COM (Rich Braun) writes:
>provided that non-research traffic is limited to NEARnet itself.  It
>was created to provide high-speed 10M microwave links which didn't
>exist before the last couple of years...
NEARnet and Alternet now/will soon have a leased line, so commercial traffic
can be sent around.  It's not limited to just academic and research organizations.

Nearnet was created because when the NSFNet proposal went around, everyone
in the area waited for MIT to sign up to create the regional network in
this area.  MIT was busy building Athena at that time, so ... the ball got
dropped.
	/r$, who has worked with the BBN NEARnet folks (they're in the same
	department), but is not a member of the group.
-- 
Please send comp.sources.unix-related mail to rsalz@uunet.uu.net.
Use a domain-based address or give alternate paths, or you may lose out.

bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) (06/03/91)

>>provided that non-research traffic is limited to NEARnet itself.  It
>>was created to provide high-speed 10M microwave links which didn't
>>exist before the last couple of years...
>NEARnet and Alternet now/will soon have a leased line, so commercial traffic
>can be sent around.  It's not limited to just academic and research organizations.

I (and some others) put in the first 10Mb microwave link between BU
and Harvard. It pre-dated NEARnet and was mainly just a spur of the
moment experiment: We (BU) happened to have two of those dishes and
accouterments which were originally slated for some other project
(maybe it was to hook up the BU Med campus with the main one? I
forget, it's not important.)

Lew Law and Scott Bradner at Harvard should get credit for making
their end happen. Kent England and staff at BU did a lot of the
slog-work to get the dishes installed and working.

The NEARnet/Alternet line is installed and just awaiting some router
setup, should be up "real soon now". The T1 runs out of my office to
MIT, so I hear about this constantly.

>Nearnet was created because when the NSFNet proposal went around, everyone
>in the area waited for MIT to sign up to create the regional network in
>this area.

Yeah, but they rejected my original proposed name, The New England
Research and Development Network (NERDnet), too bad.

I don't particularly remember that story you tell, but perhaps it's
true.
-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD