) (06/03/91)
stuff about virginia dialout deleted > >As the person responsible for the dialouts mentioned above, I can >definitely state that our intention was to provide services to persons >affiliated with the University of Virginia. We did not plan to >provide a generic Internet dialout facility. > >> These systems DON't limit who can use the dialouts. Anyone who >> can login to the dialout can use it. > >I'm not sure that I agree with this line of reasoning. Just because >something works doesn't necessarily mean that you should take >advantage of it. Passwords, etc would inconvenience our users too. The fact still remains that your dialout is extremely accesible to anyone in the internet community. When you login to this dialout do you have a statement warning users that it is only for UofV people? If not, how is a person to know that they may taking "advatage of it"?? (btw- I've never used this dialout so don't flame me if there IS such a note :-)
purdon@athena.mit.edu (James R. Purdon III) (06/03/91)
In article <1991Jun2.211543.15194@rodan.acs.syr.edu> dbarberi@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Purple Polka Dotted Dragons Everywhere!!!) writes: > The fact still remains that your dialout is extremely accesible to > anyone in the internet community. > > When you login to this dialout do you have a statement warning > users that it is only for UofV people? If not, how is a person to > know that they may taking "advatage of it"?? (btw- I've never > used this dialout so don't flame me if there IS such a note :-) I take it you have such a statement on your car, house, and all your personal belongings, right? If not, I guess you won't mind me using them, right? For the most part, machines are placed on the internet to enhance communications, not to make a private resource publicly available. -- Jim Once I was a fetus. Now I am a person. Soon I will be married.
dbarberi@rodan.acs.syr.edu (12345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678) (06/04/91)
In article <1991Jun3.134026.11020@athena.mit.edu> purdon@athena.mit.edu (James R. Purdon III) writes: >> --I write: >> The fact still remains that your dialout is extremely accesible to >> anyone in the internet community. >> >> When you login to this dialout do you have a statement warning >> users that it is only for UofV people? If not, how is a person to >> know that they may taking "advatage of it"?? (btw- I've never >> used this dialout so don't flame me if there IS such a note :-) > >I take it you have such a statement on your car, house, and all your personal >belongings, right? If not, I guess you won't mind me using them, right? I find your logic here a bit wobbled. My car is locked, and you need a key to start it, a key that only I have. The same goes for my house, it is locked and you need a key to gain entry. These dialouts do not require any sort of 'key' (read: password) to enter.> >For the most part, machines are placed on the internet to enhance >communications, not to make a private resource publicly available. I would consider a dialout a means to 'enhance communications' :-) My point still remains intact. How is a person to know that the dialout he or she is using is a 'private resource' and not to be used outside that specific university or company? There are many, many computers, information services, etc that allow internet users free access to anyone who calls. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Barberi | "Support the Electronic Frontier Foundation!" | Syracuse University |--------------------------------------------------| S.I. Newhouse School of | Bitnet: Dbarberi@SUNRISE | Public Communications | Internet: Dbarberi@Rodan.acs.syr.edu | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
brs@cci632.cci.com (Brian Scherer) (06/05/91)
In article <1991Jun3.134026.11020@athena.mit.edu> purdon@athena.mit.edu (James R. Purdon III) writes: >In article <1991Jun2.211543.15194@rodan.acs.syr.edu> dbarberi@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Purple Polka Dotted Dragons Everywhere!!!) writes: >> The fact still remains that your dialout is extremely accesible to >> anyone in the internet community. >> >> When you login to this dialout do you have a statement warning >> users that it is only for UofV people? If not, how is a person to >> know that they may taking "advatage of it"?? (btw- I've never >> used this dialout so don't flame me if there IS such a note :-) > >I take it you have such a statement on your car, house, and all your personal >belongings, right? If not, I guess you won't mind me using them, right? > >For the most part, machines are placed on the internet to enhance >communications, not to make a private resource publicly available. > > > >-- > >Jim > >Once I was a fetus. Now I am a person. Soon I will be married. The university is telling people that they can come in using internet , in other words they are promoting it. People don't promote the use of their cars or personal belongings. You are comparing apples to oranges. Brian
tfabian@falcon.lerc.nasa.gov (Teddy Fabian) (06/07/91)
In article <1991Jun4.143647.4165@rodan.acs.syr.edu> dbarberi@rodan.acs.syr.edu (12345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678) writes: >In article <1991Jun3.134026.11020@athena.mit.edu> purdon@athena.mit.edu (James R. Purdon III) writes: >>> --I write: >>> The fact still remains that your dialout is extremely accesible to >>> anyone in the internet community. >>> >>> When you login to this dialout do you have a statement warning >>> users that it is only for UofV people? If not, how is a person to >>> know that they may taking "advatage of it"?? (btw- I've never >>> used this dialout so don't flame me if there IS such a note :-) >> >>I take it you have such a statement on your car, house, and all your personal >>belongings, right? If not, I guess you won't mind me using them, right? > > I find your logic here a bit wobbled. My car is locked, and you need > a key to start it, a key that only I have. The same goes for my house, > it is locked and you need a key to gain entry. These dialouts do not > require any sort of 'key' (read: password) to enter.> whether the dialouts in question have a password on them or not isn't the issue.. the issue is whether or not it's right for you or me (or any of a thousand other people) to use something to their advantage that isn't meant for them to use.. consider how you would feel if you put a device on the network for your own use or for a few friends.. that device, let's say, could store ten 100 mg files.. you only put 5 files in the device.. leaving space for 5 more.. the device is still totally accessible, but only half available.. I come along and discover the device.. I put 4 files onto the device... things continue unknown to you.. until you try to put 3 more files on the device.. is it wrong for me to take advantage of your kindness??? I think it is.. will you be upset upon finding my files?? I think you will.. here, someone has stumbled upon a dialout modem or two.. and they've advertised the fact.. now the provider of the modem is upset/mildly annoyied/or whatever you want to call it.. and you don't understand his point.. you don't walk up and take a public garbage can because it's standing on the corner open and available.. but you're more than willing to take services (via modem) that are standing (connectted) around the network.. I think you've got to rethink your ideas... > >>For the most part, machines are placed on the internet to enhance >>communications, not to make a private resource publicly available. > > I would consider a dialout a means to 'enhance communications' :-) > My point still remains intact. How is a person to know that the > dialout he or she is using is a 'private resource' and not to be > used outside that specific university or company? There are many, many > computers, information services, etc that allow internet users free > access to anyone who calls. sure, and compuserve is going to provide free email capability to everyone on Mars too... are you living in a cave?? no company or university is going to give you (an outsider) something for nothing.. they're not in business to do that... if they do, they certainly wouldn't be in business long... > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >David Barberi | "Support the Electronic Frontier Foundation!" | >Syracuse University |--------------------------------------------------| >S.I. Newhouse School of | Bitnet: Dbarberi@SUNRISE | >Public Communications | Internet: Dbarberi@Rodan.acs.syr.edu | >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ obviously, one of the texts you've avoided in your studies of communications is THE CUCKOO'S EGG by Clifford Stoll... I suggest you read it, then maybe you'l will realize why the wise man would learn to use the RN message cancellation feature... -- ---------------------------------------------------- Thanks, Ted Fabian NASA Lewis Research Center tfabian@falcon.lerc.nasa.gov *my opinions tfabian@mars.lerc.nasa.gov *are my own..
fullnews@engin.umich.edu (Henry Park) (06/07/91)
In article <1991Jun7.050512.29949@eagle.lerc.nasa.gov> tfabian@falcon.lerc.nasa.gov (Teddy Fabian) writes: > >are you living in a cave?? no company or university is going to give you >(an outsider) something for nothing.. they're not in business to do that... >if they do, they certainly wouldn't be in business long... > Fabian is referring to the idea of "dialouts" in situations where no password is required. He seems to feel that there is something unethical about using freely accessible resources. In some of the annoyances he is talking about I think he is right. However, this point here is not clear to me at all. Sure COMPUSERVE is not giving out free e-mail to Mars. On the other hand, it might make a very good marketing strategy if COMPUSERVE could attract large numbers of clients, wipe out competitors etc. It would be a great long-range strategy. Universities may have very long-term strategies in terms of what they get out of providing public access. Like the largest of computer companies they benefit from the general public's increasing use of computers, period. They can sell more classes, provide their students better and more intensive communications with others and show outside computer donor companies how well they are using the machines and how much the company has benefitted from donations. Some universities even own their own telephone companies. Others may have complicated relationships with companies. I don't know what corporate and university executives believe is a good strategy. I also don't think anyone else does. Actually it seems to me that the only thing served by all this discussion defending private property is to hold the economy back. Whatever short-range goals people or companies may have, in the long run, it is the society's best interest to foster public access as much as possible. Many of the defenders of "ethics" may in fact be unwitting servants of economic stagnation, something I find ethically indefensible.
jb3o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jon Allen Boone) (06/07/91)
tfabian@falcon.lerc.nasa.gov (Teddy Fabian) writes: > whether the dialouts in question have a password on them or not isn't > the issue.. the issue is whether or not it's right for you or me (or any > of a thousand other people) to use something to their advantage that isn't > meant for them to use.. Actually, within a certain domain, it is the issue of whether or not access was restricted or people were informed. There is a difference between a car and a dialout. For instance, if you did use my car without my permission/knowledge, I'd be worried about getting it back, who had taken it, etc. On the other hand, if you were using, say, my television - you were just sitting there watching my tv - and not causing any other difficulty, then I'd have to say that I would mind much less. It costs money for someone to pay when I use their dialout - it also cost money when you watch my tv (read: electricity). However, in either case, it is of a different class than that of using my car w/o my permission/knowledge. > consider how you would feel if you put a device on the network for your > own use or for a few friends.. that device, let's say, could store ten > 100 mg files.. you only put 5 files in the device.. leaving space for 5 > more.. the device is still totally accessible, but only half available.. > > I come along and discover the device.. I put 4 files onto the device... things > continue unknown to you.. until you try to put 3 more files on the device.. > > is it wrong for me to take advantage of your kindness??? I think it is.. > will you be upset upon finding my files?? I think you will.. I'd be more curious than upset - I'd definitely want to know what was in the files and I might well remove them. > here, someone has stumbled upon a dialout modem or two.. and they've advertised > the fact.. now the provider of the modem is upset/mildly annoyied/or whatever > you want to call it.. and you don't understand his point.. > > you don't walk up and take a public garbage can because it's standing on the > corner open and available.. but you're more than willing to take services > (via modem) that are standing (connectted) around the network.. No one has taken a dialout modem either! Look, take the garbage can analogy - if it is there, you don't feel bad about putting your garbage in it, do you? I look at it this way - if it's a choice between throwing it on their lawn or throwing it in their can, most people would prefer the latter. Note that USING the dialout and using the garbage can do not irreparably damage them - nor do they (if used in moderation) prevent others from using them too. There's a difference between using and taking. > > I would consider a dialout a means to 'enhance communications' :-) > > My point still remains intact. How is a person to know that the > > dialout he or she is using is a 'private resource' and not to be > > used outside that specific university or company? There are many, many > > computers, information services, etc that allow internet users free > > access to anyone who calls. > > are you living in a cave?? no company or university is going to give you > (an outsider) something for nothing.. they're not in business to do that... > if they do, they certainly wouldn't be in business long... Not true - there are plenty of places where you can call up and get a free unix account with ftp, etc. available - not EVERYONE is concerned with making a profit - some are just concerned with not going too far into debt :) In fact, I have been contemplating starting up such a service, recently, as there are no places in Pittsburgh, that I know of, for young kids to get access to the internet w/o having to be affiliated with a university or company (which typically, they aren't). > > obviously, one of the texts you've avoided in your studies of communications > is THE CUCKOO'S EGG by Clifford Stoll... I suggest you read it, then maybe you'l > will realize why the wise man would learn to use the RN message cancellation > feature... I've read Cliff's book - but I don't get your point. ----------------------------------|++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ | "He divines remedies against injuries; | "Words are drugs." | | he knows how to turn serious accidents | -Antero Alli | | to his own advantage; whatever does not | | | kill him makes him stronger." | "Culture is for bacteria." | | - Friedrich Nietzsche | - Christopher Hyatt | -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
ralphs@seattleu.edu (Ralph Sims) (06/07/91)
fullnews@engin.umich.edu (Henry Park) writes: > In article <1991Jun7.050512.29949@eagle.lerc.nasa.gov>: > >are you living in a cave?? no company or university is going to give you > >(an outsider) something for nothing.. they're not in business to do that... > >if they do, they certainly wouldn't be in business long... > Fabian is referring to the idea of "dialouts" in situations where no password > is required. He seems to feel that there is something unethical about using > freely accessible resources. In some of the annoyances he is talking about I > think he is right. I would think that many admins of dialout ports would grant access willingly, if asked. It's the disregard of local needs that seems to create the problem; if a site's targeted usergroup has first crack at a resource, the casual 'outsider' should find out whether his intrusions are welcome. It may not be feasible to post a 'welcome' on the port stating "This dialout is provided for the ___________ of _____________. Access to others available after _________ hrs. on a first-come, first-served basis", or something to that effect, but it should be inferred. If I want to camp on someone's property, I would ask permission first. Many universities offer 'outside' accounts with resources that mimic those of its students, usually with a small monthly 'service fee' and/or a bill for cpu time. The packet-switching networks (TYMNET comes to mind) offer dialouts, for a fee. Access is available and without hassles for anyone wishing to make an effort to find one; FREE access should neither be demanded or expected. TANSTAAFL -- "These are the days of lasers in the jungle; this is a long distance call." Paul Simon - The Boy in the Bubble, Graceland
birchall@pilot.njin.net (Official Random) (06/08/91)
On that "garbage can" analogy, it's not a choice between their can and their lawn. It's a choice between their can and your can. You have the ability to call anywhere direct, presuming you have a modem. For a couple bucks, you can easily use SprintNet/PC-Pursuit or StarLink. [PLEASE follow-up this discussion to COMP.ADMIN.POLICY, its relevance to ABI is miniscule] -shag/ABI founder -- ------------------- Shag is. Nuff said. -------------------
jcburt@ipsun.larc.nasa.gov (John Burton) (06/10/91)
In article <McHuDMW00j69M5j6Z4@andrew.cmu.edu> jb3o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jon Allen Boone) writes: >tfabian@falcon.lerc.nasa.gov (Teddy Fabian) writes: >> whether the dialouts in question have a password on them or not isn't >> the issue.. the issue is whether or not it's right for you or me (or any >> of a thousand other people) to use something to their advantage that isn't >> meant for them to use.. > > Actually, within a certain domain, it is the issue of whether or not >access was restricted or people were informed. There is a difference >between a car and a dialout. For instance, if you did use my car >without my permission/knowledge, I'd be worried about getting it back, >who had taken it, etc. On the other hand, if you were using, say, my >television - you were just sitting there watching my tv - and not ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >causing any other difficulty, then I'd have to say that I would mind >much less. It costs money for someone to pay when I use their dialout >- it also cost money when you watch my tv (read: electricity). >However, in either case, it is of a different class than that of using >my car w/o my permission/knowledge. Well, it depends on who *you* are...If you're a friend who've I've invited into my house, fine no problem...If you're a stranger from off the street who comes into my house & starts watching my tv, I'd probably call the police and have you arrested. Perhaps a better analogy would be connecting your tv up to the local cable service, without paying for it...hey, the hardware is already there, there are no locks or security devices, all you have to do is climb a pole or find the box, connect a wire or two, and bingo! you have cable for free...but then again, you probably wouldn't see anything wrong with this either... The basics here are: "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch". If you use a service, then you *should* pay for that service one way or another. Methods of payment include, but are not limited to, taxes, tuition/student fees, barter, work, or you name it. Basically you are using a service at other peoples expense. Lets see...the original question involved a dialout modem at the University of Virginia...SOMEBODY paid to have it purchased/installed. SOMEBODY pays the phone & electric costs to operate it and SOMEBODY pays to have it maintained. That money comes from someplace, most likely the tuition and student fees for students at UVA, or from state &local taxes in Virginia (state supported school) or from the federal government (grants). Most likely it came from student fees...Your abuse of this service costs the students by reducing the availability of this service and higher operating expenses (read phone bills). Ahh...no password or security you say...perhaps its because at UVa, they are a bit idealistic...they operate under an honor code... they ASSUME that a person is honest and trustworthy and will not lie, cheat or STEAL, and that is exactly what you are doing by using a dialout modem that you did not pay for or previously arrange to use. You are STEALING services belonging to the students and faculty of the Univeristy of Virginia. John +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | John Burton | | G & A Technical Software | | jcburt@gatsibm.larc.nasa.gov | | jcburt@cs.wm.edu | | | | Disclaimer: Hey, what can I say...These are *my* views, not those | | of anyone else, be they employer, school, or government| +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
jb3o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jon Allen Boone) (06/11/91)
jcburt@ipsun.larc.nasa.gov (John Burton) writes: > Well, it depends on who *you* are...If you're a friend who've I've invited > into my house, fine no problem...If you're a stranger from off the street > who comes into my house & starts watching my tv, I'd probably call the police > and have you arrested. Well, if I minded you being there, I'd ask you to leave. If you didn't then I'd call the police and have them escort you away. But see, that's the same thing I'd do in any situation where I have reasonable excuse to be where I am and you don't. In the case of my house, the reasonable excuse is that it belongs (or is rented by) me. But note, that is not an inherrently reasonable excuse (ie., the concept of Immenent Domain) - it's simply one by convention, a convention I feel would be best left OUT of cyber-space. > Perhaps a better analogy would be connecting your tv up to the local > cable service, without paying for it...hey, the hardware is already there, > there are no locks or security devices, all you have to do is climb a pole > or find the box, connect a wire or two, and bingo! you have cable for > free...but then again, you probably wouldn't see anything wrong with this > either... Actually, no I don't. But I don't see anything wrong with paying for the service either. I'd much rather subcontract out to my local cable company - they give me free access to the cable channels I want - I maintain their cable in my neighborhood (including installation, etc.) Sound's like a fair trade to me. Bet they won't go for it. > The basics here are: "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch". If you use > a service, then you *should* pay for that service one way or another. Methods Why? This is the current setup, but I find the current setup to be counter-intuitive. Please elaborate. > work, or you name it. Basically you are using a service at other peoples > expense. Lets see...the original question involved a dialout modem at the > University of Virginia...SOMEBODY paid to have it purchased/installed. SOMEBODY > pays the phone & electric costs to operate it and SOMEBODY pays to have > it maintained. That money comes from someplace, most likely the tuition > and student fees for students at UVA, or from state &local taxes in Virginia > (state supported school) or from the federal government (grants). Most likely > it came from student fees...Your abuse of this service costs the students > by reducing the availability of this service and higher operating expenses > (read phone bills). Ahh...no password or security you say...perhaps its > because at UVa, they are a bit idealistic...they operate under an honor code... > they ASSUME that a person is honest and trustworthy and will not lie, cheat > or STEAL, and that is exactly what you are doing by using a dialout modem > that you did not pay for or previously arrange to use. You are STEALING > services belonging to the students and faculty of the Univeristy of Virginia. First, this is a fairly accurate presentation of the current situation - but again, it need not be this way. We simply (as a society) have chosen to go with this model. Obviously, the model is less than perfect. Time to get a better model. Better to have a national-lottery, rather than an income tax. Better to have a per-service price on social programs, etc. Blah. Blah. Blah. Blah. Blah. Follow-ups to some other bboard please. ----------------------------------|++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ | "He divines remedies against injuries; | "Words are drugs." | | he knows how to turn serious accidents | -Antero Alli | | to his own advantage; whatever does not | | | kill him makes him stronger." | "Culture is for bacteria." | | - Friedrich Nietzsche | - Christopher Hyatt | -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
james@engrss2.unl.edu (James Nau) (06/11/91)
In article <1991Jun10.131909.14977@news.larc.nasa.gov> jcburt@ipsun.larc.nasa.gov (John Burton) writes: >In article <McHuDMW00j69M5j6Z4@andrew.cmu.edu> jb3o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jon Allen Boone) writes: >>tfabian@falcon.lerc.nasa.gov (Teddy Fabian) writes: >>> whether the dialouts in question have a password on them or not isn't >>> the issue.. the issue is whether or not it's right for you or me (or any >>> of a thousand other people) to use something to their advantage that isn't >>> meant for them to use.. >> >> Actually, within a certain domain, it is the issue of whether or not >>access was restricted or people were informed. There is a difference >>between a car and a dialout. For instance, if you did use my car >>without my permission/knowledge, I'd be worried about getting it back, >>who had taken it, etc. On the other hand, if you were using, say, my >>television - you were just sitting there watching my tv - and not > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>causing any other difficulty, then I'd have to say that I would mind >>much less. It costs money for someone to pay when I use their dialout >>- it also cost money when you watch my tv (read: electricity). >>However, in either case, it is of a different class than that of using >>my car w/o my permission/knowledge. Perhaps a better still analogy. What if the TV were in the Student Union/Center and some non-student is there watching TV. Then, a non-student is using resources of the school... James