[comp.org.acm] Yet another posting...:)

TAINT021@ysub.ysu.edu (David M. Onder) (04/30/91)

I have seen a few questions about High School contests.  I have some of the
problems that were sent to me when we had a big exchange a few weeks ago.
I would like to know if there are any other problems floating around?  I
would gladly send a copy of ours to those that want them.  Just send me mail.
BTW, our students program in Basic ( yuck! ) and Pascal, although I am trying
to get C included as well.  I would like to drop basic to send a message
to the area high schools that basic is not really that important here at
the university, as far as serious computer science is concerned! :)

I like Debbie's idea about sending her mail about our organizations...I will
be sending something soon, but I think all of us should do this.  So, if there
are some people interested in communicating through e-mail, I am all fingers!
( I mean to the organizations personally... )

Well, I'll have more later, so until then.......

David M. Onder
YSU-ACM Student Chapter Secretary
YSU-ASM Student Chapter President
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hurwitz@ENUXHA.EAS.ASU.EDU (Roger A. Hurwitz) (05/02/91)

In article <91120.075856TAINT021@ysub.ysu.edu> TAINT021@ysub.ysu.edu (David M. Onder) writes:
>I have seen a few questions about High School contests.  I have some of the
>problems that were sent to me when we had a big exchange a few weeks ago.
>I would like to know if there are any other problems floating around?  I
>would gladly send a copy of ours to those that want them.  Just send me mail.
>BTW, our students program in Basic ( yuck! ) and Pascal, although I am trying
>to get C included as well.  I would like to drop basic to send a message
>to the area high schools that basic is not really that important here at
>the university, as far as serious computer science is concerned! :)

At the risk of getting char-broiled, it is my belief that the entire
idea of programming contest that puts a premium on speed rather than
quality sends the wrong message to CS noviates.  The format of the ACM
programming contests here at ASU, is to solve as many software "puzzles"
in the time allotted.   Therefore, one is rewarded for slapping together
a working solution in the shortest possible time.  It is like the AMA
sponsoring a medical school competition where the object is to see which
student can perform the most appendectomies in an hour :-).  The so called
"software crisis" we find ourselves in today has to do with quality.  There
is no problem with quantity.  It may not be as much fun, but why not make
these things software design contests, and judge the contestants on the
quality of their designs?  Or change the format to give contestants more
time and judge the implementations on the famous "ilities".  The current
format, IMHO, is at odds with good programming practices that we should
be encouraging. 

crisi

glenn@curie.ces.cwru.edu (Glenn Crocker) (05/02/91)

hurwitz@ENUXHA.EAS.ASU.EDU (Roger A. Hurwitz) writes:

   ...  There
   is no problem with quantity.  

This is arguable, but I'll leave that for another day.  I do agree that
there are problems with quality.

   It may not be as much fun, but why not make
   these things software design contests, and judge the contestants on the
   quality of their designs?  Or change the format to give contestants more
   time and judge the implementations on the famous "ilities".

This is an excellent idea.  Please put together an objective non-language-
specific set of criterion for judging the quality of a program.  Hmmmmm.
Let's see.  Here's a first draft:

1.  Number of subprograms.  (functions, procedures, whatever)
2.  Length of variable names.
3.  Comment / Code ratio.
4.  ...
....

:-)

Seriously, how would you have these contests judged?  Have the judges
each take an enormous amount of time to thoroughly read and understand
each team's entries, then have them vote on the winner?  The current
contests take quite a bit of time to judge, so you'd have to decrease
the number of problems.  My point is not that you're wrong, just that
what you want may not be possible at a contest with 100+ teams....

   crisi
--
Glenn Crocker                   |  Your milage may vary.
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theo.bbs@shark.cs.fau.edu (Theo Heavey) (05/03/91)

hurwitz@ENUXHA.EAS.ASU.EDU (Roger A. Hurwitz) writes:

> student can perform the most appendectomies in an hour :-).  The so called
> "software crisis" we find ourselves in today has to do with quality.  There
> is no problem with quantity.  It may not be as much fun, but why not make
> these things software design contests, and judge the contestants on the
> quality of their designs?  Or change the format to give contestants more
> time and judge the implementations on the famous "ilities".  The current
> format, IMHO, is at odds with good programming practices that we should
> be encouraging. 
> 

Okay  --- I study SW ENg techniques so here is my question:

How do you decide the BEST design in an objective maNNER?

blair@cs.columbia.edu (Blair Seidler) (05/03/91)

In article <GLENN.91May2094528@curie.ces.cwru.edu> glenn@curie.ces.cwru.edu (Glenn Crocker) writes:
>hurwitz@ENUXHA.EAS.ASU.EDU (Roger A. Hurwitz) writes:
>
>   It may not be as much fun, but why not make
>   these things software design contests, and judge the contestants on the
>   quality of their designs?  Or change the format to give contestants more
>   time and judge the implementations on the famous "ilities".
>
[ some cute comments deleted ]
>
>Seriously, how would you have these contests judged?  Have the judges
>each take an enormous amount of time to thoroughly read and understand
>each team's entries, then have them vote on the winner?  The current
>contests take quite a bit of time to judge, so you'd have to decrease
>the number of problems.  My point is not that you're wrong, just that
>what you want may not be possible at a contest with 100+ teams....
>
At the finals of the ACM Programming Contest, the results aren't announced
until the following day.  That should be enough time to judge on whatever
grounds are desired.  The real problem is that it is much easier to use the
objective (does it produce the correct output) judging procedure than the
subjective (would a good programmer have organized this code this way).
-- 
Blair A. Seidler          Teaching Assistant, Department of Computer Science
(212) 853-6874                           Columbia University
   "Columbia University School of Engineering and Applied Science does not
     even know that my opinions exist, and would ignore them if it did."

mellon@nigiri.pa.dec.com (Ted Lemon) (05/03/91)

>Seriously, how would you have these contests judged?  Have the judges
>each take an enormous amount of time to thoroughly read and understand
>each team's entries, then have them vote on the winner?  The current
>contests take quite a bit of time to judge, so you'd have to decrease
>the number of problems.  My point is not that you're wrong, just that
>what you want may not be possible at a contest with 100+ teams....

You're probably right that judging the quality of a program in the
manner you've described isn't reasonable.   So, how about setting up
teams, where one person writes a program that solves one problem, then
a second team member modifies that program to solve a second, related
problem, a third team member solves a third related problem, and so
on?

Naturally, in a situation like this, the team with the best
programming style will have a speed advantage over the team which
codes quickly but poorly.   There are a lot of problems with this
approach, not the least of which is coming up with a good set of
related problems to solve, but I think it might be possible to make it
work.

			       _MelloN_