clochmul@nrambr.chem.duke.edu (C. H. Lochmueller) (03/14/91)
From: clochmul@nrambr.chem.duke.edu (C. H. Lochmueller) It is a long tradition here in the South dating before the war of Northern Agression to use dogs to hunt deer. The typical deer hound is a gentle dog and they are known to be so unlikely to fight that they are killed by wild dogs here. There seems to be some real prejudice about using dogs to hunt among northerners who move here and one even shoots them as they cross the back of her property beyond her property line! This isn't a moral question, dear moderator. Just a stimulus to discussion. CHL
kh@SEI.CMU.EDU (Kurt Haverstock) (03/15/91)
From: Kurt Haverstock <kh@SEI.CMU.EDU> C.H. Lochmueller <clochmul@nrambr.chem.duke.edu> posted with some interesting points of discussion relating to the use of dogs in deer hunting. I have been hunting in Pennsylvania for five years and have mixed feelings on the subject. On one hand, it almost seems like the dog would provide further advantage to the hunter in addition to the long-range advantage of rifles. The fundamentalists would argue that there is little sport in waiting for a dog to run a deer into shooting range for you. On the other hand, what ethical difference is there between a dog running deer for you and having a buddy put on a drive? I have no experience with using dogs for deer or other game, but I would also assume that quite a bit of effort is involved in training as well as directing an effective drive with dogs. As far as the 'Northerner' who shoots the dogs running behind his/her property...that's downright nasty. Pennsylvania law allows for the destruction of dogs attacking big game animals, so maybe there is some confusion there, but they are obliged to obey the rules as they relate to their particular state. Seems dangerous from the standpoint of neighborly relations, too. Kurt
aeporro@helios.lerc.nasa.gov (Bob Porro) (03/15/91)
From: aeporro@helios.lerc.nasa.gov (Bob Porro) In article <331@erb1.engr.wisc.edu>, clochmul@nrambr.chem.duke.edu (C. H. Lochmueller) writes... > > >From: clochmul@nrambr.chem.duke.edu (C. H. Lochmueller) >It is a long tradition here in the South dating before the war of Northern >Agression to use dogs to hunt deer. The typical deer hound is a gentle dog >and they are known to be so unlikely to fight that they are killed by wild >dogs here. There seems to be some real prejudice about using dogs to hunt >among northerners who move here and one even shoots them as they cross the >back of her property beyond her property line! > >This isn't a moral question, dear moderator. Just a stimulus to discussion. > >CHL >From what I remember as a young boy growing up in rural Pennsylvania, I recall that it was illegal to hunt deer with dogs. Therefore, no dogs were tranined to hunt deer, and the dogs that typically chased after deer were on the wild side. Where I lived, sometimes you would see a pack of these dogs chasing a deer down until it could no longer flee and then kill it. It was common knowledge in this area that if you saw a dog chasing deer, you were justified in shooting it. As for your problem, it is definitely a difference in cultural background. This "Northerner" obviously doesn't understand that your dogs are used to hunt deer in a humane manner. I disagree with her actions -- isn't there a way to get the local game warden to explain to her the deer hunting philosophy down South, and the legal consequences of shooting a hunting dog? ****************************************************************************** | Bob Porro || (The opinions expressed here are not | | aeporro@venus.lerc.nasa.gov || necessarily those of the management ?\*!) | | || | ******************************************************************************
ftpam1@acad3.alaska.edu (MUNTS PHILLIP A) (03/15/91)
From: ftpam1@acad3.alaska.edu (MUNTS PHILLIP A) In article <331@erb1.engr.wisc.edu>, clochmul@nrambr.chem.duke.edu (C. H. Lochmueller) writes... > > >From: clochmul@nrambr.chem.duke.edu (C. H. Lochmueller) >It is a long tradition here in the South dating before the war of Northern >Agression to use dogs to hunt deer. The typical deer hound is a gentle dog >and they are known to be so unlikely to fight that they are killed by wild >dogs here. There seems to be some real prejudice about using dogs to hunt >among northerners who move here and one even shoots them as they cross the >back of her property beyond her property line! > >This isn't a moral question, dear moderator. Just a stimulus to discussion. One of the western Canadian provinces permits using dogs for big game hunting, but it is a bit more structured than the traditional English stag hunt. I like to pick up hunting regulations wherever I go and read through them; variations on what is illegal in different places is pretty interesting. For example, Idaho permits "hand thrown missiles" for grouse and British Columbia permits crossbows during the archery seasons. Alaska permits using 25 ACP pocket pistols (centerfire) but not 56-56 Spencer rifles (rimfire) on big game. Philip Munts N7AHL NRA Extremist, etc. University of Alaska, Fairbanks
cmi@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Theo Pozzy/R. Green) (03/16/91)
From: cmi@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Theo Pozzy/R. Green)
>As far as the 'Northerner' who shoots the dogs running behind
This generalized statement is as illogical as some made by
anti-hunters!
In Vermont, only certified law-enforcement officers may shoot
dogs, and then only if the animal in question is actually
engaged in the destruction of big-game animals. "Northerners"
or as implied, Northern Hunters, as a group do not shoot dogs.
Rather fond of them in fact! As a "northerner" I see no difference
between hunting deer with dogs and hunting rabbits with dogs.
I dont hunt deer with dogs personaly, but I dont mind if someone
else does. If I ever hunt down Kurt's way, I hope I get invited to
try hunting deer with dogs! It might be fun!
Keep your powder dry!
Jerry
cmi!jerry@dartvax.dartmouth.edu
--
Theo Pozzy, Corporate Microsystems, Inc.
..!decvax!dartvax!eleazar!cmi (UUCP) cmi@eleazar.dartmouth (CSNET)
cmi@eleazar.dartmouth.EDU (ARPA) Box A-58, Hanover, NH, 03755 (USPS)kinney@uunet.uu.net (Will Kinney) (03/17/91)
From: decuac!decvax!bunker!kinney@uunet.uu.net (Will Kinney) In article <331@erb1.engr.wisc.edu> clochmul@nrambr.chem.duke.edu (C. H. Lochmueller) writes: > > >From: clochmul@nrambr.chem.duke.edu (C. H. Lochmueller) >It is a long tradition here in the South dating before the war of Northern >Agression to use dogs to hunt deer. The typical deer hound is a gentle dog >and they are known to be so unlikely to fight that they are killed by wild >dogs here. There seems to be some real prejudice about using dogs to hunt >among northerners who move here and one even shoots them as they cross the >back of her property beyond her property line! Well, I grew up in Montana, where, as far as I know, nobody hunts deer with dogs. It is not uncommon, however, for dog owners to let their animals run free in the woods -- these dogs form up into packs and do a little hunting on their own. A favorite tactic is to chase a deer onto a frozen lake, where the deer can't walk but the dogs can, then close in and eat. There is a very firm and widely-held rule up there -- dogs running deer are shot on sight. It is not unheard of for a dog owner to put his own animal down if he finds out it's running deer. Actually *training* a dog to run deer would be considered horrifying. -- Will
thompson@parc.xerox.com (Chris Thompson) (03/19/91)
From: thompson@parc.xerox.com (Chris Thompson) I frequently go stag-hunting when I am back home (currently exiled in LA for at least another month :-( ) and it is rather more humane than some of you seem to imply. We (the Quantock Staghounds) always hunt our deer to bay (the deer turns and holds hounds off with its antlers) when they are then dispatched with a rifle. The hounds generally get some of the innards as a reward for their efforts, the "anti's" frequenty using shots of the resultant melee to further their "bloodthirsty hunting claims". I'd be happy to post some more details of staghunting for those who are interested in the art but am less than keen in entering a debate on the ethics (having trodden that ground rather too often in the past rather than from lack of the moral high ground!). Chris Chris.lax1b@xerox.com
JJD118@psuvm.psu.edu (John Donovan) (03/21/91)
From: John Donovan <JJD118@psuvm.psu.edu> I live here in PA the most back asswards state in the union. Here hunting big game with dogs is ILLEGAL. I don't have an gripe with this I have never hunted with dogs so I don't know what I'm missing. However PA does give the right to hunters to destroy ANY dog attacking a game animal. The rule further states that the destroing party MUST deliver the animal (dog) to the owner or game commision. _________________________________________________________________________ John Donovan at Penn State University Internet JJD118@PSUVM.PSU.EDU Bitnet JJD118@PSUVM My opinions are my own .... if you don't like 'em form your own.
nesiusra@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Robert) (03/21/91)
From: nesiusra@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Robert) In article <381@erb1.engr.wisc.edu> decuac!decvax!bunker!kinney@uunet.uu.net (Will Kinney) writes: > >Well, I grew up in Montana, where, as far as I know, nobody hunts deer with >dogs. It is not uncommon, however, for dog owners to let their animals run >free in the woods -- these dogs form up into packs and do a little hunting >on their own. A favorite tactic is to chase a deer onto a frozen lake, where >the deer can't walk but the dogs can, then close in and eat. > >There is a very firm and widely-held rule up there -- dogs running deer are >shot on sight. It is not unheard of for a dog owner to put his own animal >down if he finds out it's running deer. Actually *training* a dog to run >deer would be considered horrifying. > > > -- Will This pretty much holds true in Minnesota. On ducks and Steel Shot: Duck season at Minnesota is in the fall(October), and the Ducks on opening day are dumb and uneducated(They get educated fast!! :-)) We set up decoys right outside some rushes and pull the boat in the rushes. The ducks will usually get within 10 - 20 yards if not actually land. We shoot #4 steel with modified chokes. It's not unusual to have ducks in th decoys and not know it. Many times we've had 2 or 3 teal come screamin in really low and fast. If we don't here the splash, they may be there for up to ten minutes before we see them. After that, they're sitting ducks(pun intended :-). The only thing I've noticed about steel is that it gets where it's going, faster than lead. #6 steel tended to leave us with a lot of cripples, so we use #4's. We hate rowing. My $0.02 Robert Nesius nesiusra@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
beal@paladin.owego.ny.us (Alan Beal) (03/22/91)
From: beal@paladin.owego.ny.us (Alan Beal)
Let me clarify my stand out hunting, especially hunting with dogs. I grew
up in Maine and spent a good part of my fall hunting for deer and ducks.
As you may know Maine doesn't have an abundant supply of deer like
Pennsylvania and Michigan; 20,000 deer killed in one year in Maine is
about average. But one good thing about Maine is the amount of land that
is open to hunting including private land owned by normal citizens and
the paper companies. Since the deer population is quite small, one must
really work to get one's deer, and one tends to find only serious hunters
in the woods after the opening weekend. Relations between landowners and
hunters are fairly good; the only people I had problems with were out of state
(MA) landowners. Hunting was an enjoyable and safe experience. Most of
the hunters I met went hunting to enjoy the outdoors; you had to be this
way because one often spent weeks before you got your deer.
However, my hunting experiences in Michigan were completely different. I went
once with a person to hunt on a farm which amounted to a small patches of
woods among the corn fields. This was the only time I have ever been scared
in the woods!!! There were so many people packed into these small patches
of woods, it sounded like a war. I had slugs skipping through the trees
over my head. After that day, I didn't go hunting for a long time, not
that I didn't try. But the vast majority of the land was posted. One thing
I noticed among my fellow hunters was the attitude that hunting was just
a means to get meat. Get one's three deer and take them to the butcher.
Scary as well as boring. Now I ask why was all the land posted in Michigan?
So when I hear about hunting deer with dogs, I think about the 'out for
meat' mentality. Hunting is already viewed as an unnecessary evil by
many, especially by some landowners. Can you imagine what those landowners
who are neutral on hunting would think after seeing deer being chased by
dogs being chased by hunters. I can see the no hunting signs going up the
next day. I think we hunters have to present the proper image of hunting
and I don't think the majority of people would find hunting deer with dogs
too sporting. Hunting has a public relations problem and hunters just
out for meat contribute to the problem.
--
Alan Beal
Internet: beal@paladin.Owego.NY.US
USENET: {uunet,uunet!bywater!scifi}!paladin!bealrobert@uunet.UU.NET (Robert A. Osborne) (03/25/91)
From: "Robert A. Osborne" <isgtec!robert@uunet.UU.NET> #From: beal@paladin.owego.ny.us (Alan Beal) #[Descriptions of idiots in Michigan deleted] # #So when I hear about hunting deer with dogs, I think about the 'out for #meat' mentality. Hunting is already viewed as an unnecessary evil by #many, especially by some landowners. Can you imagine what those landowners #who are neutral on hunting would think after seeing deer being chased by #dogs being chased by hunters. I can see the no hunting signs going up the #next day. I think we hunters have to present the proper image of hunting #and I don't think the majority of people would find hunting deer with dogs #too sporting. Hunting has a public relations problem and hunters just #out for meat contribute to the problem. People hunt for four reasons: 1) The thrill of the chase. 2) The thrill of the kill. 3) To enjoy the outdoors. 4) For meat. I hunt for reasons 1, 3, and (primarily) 4. Alan claims to hunt for 1 and 3. Why then does he kill the deer? Surely aims 1 and 3 could be accomplished with a camera? I suggest Alan also hunts for one of 2 or 4. Alan, could you please explain why hunting for meat is wrong and why you don't use a camera. The examples you gave are of bad hunters, their reasons for hunting have nothing to do with that. Why does hunting have to be 'sporting'. If you want do be sporting don't use a bow or a gun, try to take down a 10 point buck using a knife (good luck!). The 'Sporting' mentality is what results in some deer bleeding to death over a couple of days because some bozo was 'sporting' enough to use a .22. We have no problem with land owners where we hunt (of course we own most of the land we hunt on :-). None of them have a problem with the fact that we use dogs. The reason hunting has a PR problem is that you can convince some people that shooting a deer that has run free across several thousand acres until it was shot is inhuman, while cutting the throat of a cow that has been trapped in 4X8 stall all it's life isn't. Rob.
beal@paladin.owego.ny.us (Alan Beal) (03/30/91)
Through my hunting experiences I have come to associate hunters that are
just out for the meat with people who will do anything to get a deer.
Doing anything can take on many forms - using illegal methods, disregarding
other hunters and/or landowners, over-hunting areas, etc. Now I realize
this may be a gross generalization but I have formed this opinion over
many years.
My definition of a true hunter is that of a person who:
1) always knows which way the wind is blowing,
2) tries to minimize the effect of one's presence in the woods, ie.
is aware of the effects of sound and smell,
3) is aware of the locations of other hunters and stays away from
the areas in which they are hunting(common courtesy),
4) only needs one shot to kill one's prey,
5) shots only when one is sure of the target,
6) and knows what to do after the kill.
I find bowhunters will come closest to fitting this description and I have
great respect for these people. However, I don't have respect for people
who must use some sort of herding technique to get a deer.
--
Alan Beal
Internet: beal@paladin.Owego.NY.US
USENET: {uunet,uunet!bywater!scifi}!paladin!bealrobert@uunet.UU.NET (Robert A. Osborne) (04/02/91)
Here we go again... #From: beal@paladin.owego.ny.us (Alan Beal) #My definition of a true hunter is that of a person who: # 1) always knows which way the wind is blowing, # 2) tries to minimize the effect of one's presence in the woods, ie. # is aware of the effects of sound and smell, # 3) is aware of the locations of other hunters and stays away from # the areas in which they are hunting(common courtesy), # 4) only needs one shot to kill one's prey, # 5) shots only when one is sure of the target, # 6) and knows what to do after the kill. You've just described every member of our hunt club. #I find bowhunters will come closest to fitting this description and I have #great respect for these people. However, I don't have respect for people #who must use some sort of herding technique to get a deer. Alan, please answer my question: If I don't do anything 'bad' in the bush except "use herding technique" what is your problem. You seem to have some bigotry you are trying to explain away with "meat hunters will do anything". I don't "need" to use herding techniques, I know where the deer yard, where the best places to set a stand would be and I'm good enough at stalking that I could bow hunt if I wanted to. All of this I learned by just being in the bush alot. I just happen to believe the business of killing should be done as quickly and efficiently as possible; herding is exactly that. Rob.
ralphk@hpcvra.cv.hp.com (Ralph Kinser) (04/04/91)
While I would probably not hunt Deer with Dogs, I don't feel there is anything wrong with doing so. From the articles I have read on hunting with Dogs it sounds very sporting. I think people need to be more open minded to other forms of hunting, especially if they have not personally try it. I have hunted Bear several times with Dogs here in Oregon. I don't like it as much as stalking Deer but it is fun and a differnt experiance. I can say that the people who own and train the Dogs think it is very sporting. Many of them have much more money and time invested in their Dogs then most rifle or bow hunters. To them, a good chase and a successful hunt is the reward for a lot of hard work careing for and training their Dogs. Hunting Deer with Dogs should not be compared to the wild packs of house Dogs that often run and kill Deer, this is like comparing hunters to poachers. regards Ralph Kinser