gjb@bellcore.bellcore.com (G. Blanchard) (03/15/91)
From: nvuxl!gjb@bellcore.bellcore.com (G. Blanchard) I'd appreciate hearing opinions on steel shot. Is it as useless as people say it is? Also, If I'm pheasant hunting in a marsh during the waterfowl season, am I required to use steel or can I load up with lead? Is there any way to harden existing old shotgun barrels so that they can be used with steel shot? How about something like ion implantation? Thanks, Gary B.
eburns@ADS.COM (Edward Burns) (03/16/91)
From: eburns@ADS.COM (Edward Burns) In article <361@erb1.engr.wisc.edu> nvuxl!gjb@bellcore.bellcore.com (G. Blanchard) writes: >I'd appreciate hearing opinions on steel shot. Is it as useless >as people say it is? We just finished our sixth season with steel shot here in California. Personally, I think the only thing wrong with it is its cost. After adjusting to the different flight characteristics(which wasn't easy), I've really had no trouble at all unless it is a very windy day. In that case, you need to go to very large shot which of course hurts your pattern. I should point out though, that I only hunt with decoys. A pass shooter who needs to take shots of 40 yards or more, will have more problems. I keep my shots to no more than 35 yards, and at that range there is no loss of "knock-down power". >Also, If I'm pheasant hunting in a marsh during the waterfowl >season, am I required to use steel or can I load up with lead? Depends on the place. I hunt public refuges and the rules vary between them. At Colusa, you can use lead if you are hunting pheasant only. The rules clearly state though, that you can't shoot waterfowl if you are carrying any shells containing lead shot. At Grizzly Island, you can't carry lead at any time. >Is there any way to harden existing old shotgun barrels so that they >can be used with steel shot? How about something like ion implantation? Not sure, but it's not a problem in anything other than a full choke barrel. I've been using a modified for the six years, and it hasn't caused any problems. Ed
sdc@scottsun.cs.umd.edu (Scott Carson) (03/16/91)
From: sdc@scottsun.cs.umd.edu (Scott Carson) I find that steel shot is perfectly useful - like anything, practice makes perfect. I have hunted ducks and geese for 3 years with steel. Steel shot is a little different from lead: higher velocity and *much* tighter pattern. The tight pattern probably explains why some people claim it is worthless. I still use a full choke gun, which on long shots (>30 yds) gives a pretty good effect: I either miss completely or kill quickly. On short shots, I am occasionally unlucky enough to ruin the bird. I would probably buy a modified choke (or a variable) if I was buying a new gun. If you are hunting during waterfowl season in a place where there are waterfowl, and if steel is required for waterfowl hunting, then you must use steel for pheasant hunting too. I think that the spirit of the law says that you ought to use steel in marshes even when waterfowl are out of season. Just watch those close-in shots! On a side note, I have never had much luck using the extra large (BBB,T) shot sizes with steel. My theory is that the pattern is too thin. I have found that #2 steel is perfectly deadly even for geese, and I generally use #4 for ducks. On another note, I have found that if your shells get wet (a common waterfowling experience), then you'd better use them up pretty quickly. I have had the shot rust together, forming a nasty ball and blowing the pattern. A few years ago, the Interior department put out a video called (I think) ``Hunting with Steel Shot.'' I found it at a public library. It provides a good tutorial on shooting with steel, including a lot of footage of a government consultant shooting geese consistently at > 60 yards (!). The film also includes tips from champion trap shooters. Scott Carson sdc@cs.umd.edu
jim@doctor.chem.yale.edu (James F. Blake) (03/17/91)
From: jim@doctor.chem.yale.edu (James F. Blake) >From article <361@erb1.engr.wisc.edu>, by nvuxl!gjb@bellcore.bellcore.com (G. Blanchard): > > > From: nvuxl!gjb@bellcore.bellcore.com (G. Blanchard) > I'd appreciate hearing opinions on steel shot. Is it as useless > as people say it is? For most waterfowl hunting shots, lead and steel are very similar, but if you can consistently make 50-70 yd shots on B-52's (i.e., Geese), steel fails miserably. I usually use steel 1-2's for ducks and F shot for Geese. Even though I can make the longer shots, my SOP is to pass them up. Check local regulations before stuffing any shells in your vest, or it could be a very expensive outing. I only use 3" shells, since steel just doesn't have the killing power of lead. You can also forget about using a 20 gauge with steel (I don't recall ever seeing 20 gauge steel loads). > Also, If I'm pheasant hunting in a marsh during the waterfowl > season, am I required to use steel or can I load up with lead? Check local regulations. In the quota zone in Southern Illinois, it's a $50.00 fine for EACH lead shell you are CARRYING. When I was hunting in Carbondale a few years ago, a friend of mine had 3 shells in his game bag left over from Dove season. Mr. Game Warden burned him with a $150.00 fine even though they were 7 1/2 dove loads and he wasn't near any water. I have switched to all steel loads for the most part since you can avoid all sorts of trouble this way. Pheasants are pretty easy to bring down with steel. Since steel patterns much tighter than lead, I use improved cylinder (Rem Chokes :-) and 4 shot. Jim
rickr@pyrthoth.pyramid.com (Rick Rasor) (03/19/91)
From: rickr@pyrthoth.pyramid.com (Rick Rasor) I have been using steel shot for about 5-6 years now. In the beginning I was very disgusted with the performance of the patterning, meaning I wounded quite a few birds or I hit them so badly that all I could do was breast them out. The first thing I tried was my skeet barrel, much better improvement over the full choke I had been using and since I shoot mostly over decoys, I wasn't worried about the possible loss of range. This I later learned was a misconception on my part, since steel holds a pattern much tighter than lead the effect of changing chokes is reduced considerably. The greatest difference I found was the amount of lead on passing shots. Outside of 50 yards I don't even consider shooting anymore unless I have in goose loads (T,BB). At 40-50 yds. I lead just in front of the bird, and inside of these ranges I aim from the bird's bill on back through it's neck. Your own leads may vary but they should be much less than what you are used to with lead shot. IMO if the use of steel shot helps only a small percentage of game, or non-game for that matter, the change is very worth it. Rick Rasor
cassman@athena.mit.edu (Baby Killer) (03/20/91)
From: cassman@athena.mit.edu (Baby Killer) From: cassman@athena.mit.edu # do was breast them out. The first thing I tried was my skeet barrel, much # better improvement over the full choke I had been using and since I shoot Full chokes are definitely a poor choice for shooting steel shot. The people that I shoot with recommend I.C. or modified (for long shots). ----------------------------------------- - I was gambling in Havana - I took a litte risk - Send lawyers, guns, and money - Dad, get me out of this ----- Warren Zevon -----------------------------------------
mitchell@metaphor.metaphor.com (Greg Mitchell) (03/22/91)
From: mitchell@metaphor.metaphor.com (Greg Mitchell) Can anyone explain why steel shot produces a tighter pattern than lead ? -- Greg
jim@doctor.chem.yale.edu (James F. Blake) (03/23/91)
From: jim@doctor.chem.yale.edu (James F. Blake) >From article <423@erb1.engr.wisc.edu>, by mitchell@metaphor.metaphor.com (Greg Mitchell): > > Can anyone explain why steel shot produces a tighter pattern than lead ? Steel shot does not deform like lead when fired. It's the deformation of the lead pellets that produces the pattern widening. I have also found that steel pellets are more uniform to begin with. Jim
eburns@ADS.COM (Edward Burns) (03/23/91)
From: eburns@ADS.COM (Edward Burns) In article <423@erb1.engr.wisc.edu> mitchell@metaphor.metaphor.com (Greg Mitchell) writes: >From: mitchell@metaphor.metaphor.com (Greg Mitchell) > >Can anyone explain why steel shot produces a tighter pattern than lead ? Steel is so hard, that when the shell is fired the pellets don't deform under the impact. With lead many do, and the deformed pellets don't fly true so they don't stay in the useful area of the pattern. This also produces something I hadn't thought about until I actually started using steel. Since I hunt with decoys and keep my shots relatively short, I almost never find a pellet in a bird. Since they stay round, they just go right through. Part of this is due to the fact that being lighter, steel flys faster until about 40 yards. Ed
sxrmh1@acad3.alaska.edu (03/23/91)
From: sxrmh1@acad3.alaska.edu > From: mitchell@metaphor.metaphor.com (Greg Mitchell) > > Can anyone explain why steel shot produces a tighter pattern than lead ? > > > -- Greg I have read that it is due to the steel shot being harder than lead and not deformed by the ignition of the powder starting it on its way (plus the added chaos of travelling down the barrel at a fairly high rate of speed) - causing the shot to push on its neighbors and dent one another. Anyone else? RMHayman University of Alaska - Fairbanks sxrmh1@acad3.alaska.edu I'm the NRA too. (Life Member)
sxrmh1@acad3.alaska.edu (03/23/91)
From: sxrmh1@acad3.alaska.edu Fromn the previous post, do I need to say that round shot flies truer than deformed shot, hence a tighter pattern? RMHayman University of Alaska - Fairbanks sxrmh1@acad3.alaska.edu I'm the NRA too. (Life Member)
pht@ohgua.ATT.COM (Phil True) (03/27/91)
From: pht@ohgua.ATT.COM (Phil True) > From: mitchell@metaphor.metaphor.com (Greg Mitchell) > > Can anyone explain why steel shot produces a tighter pattern than lead ? Steel shot is harder than lead. When the shot goes through the choke, it does not deform like lead does. Now, not all the lead shot gets deformed, and most of the deformities are simply indentations on the pellet from the other shot, rather than becoming elliptical or something. Anyway, since the lead isn't (necessarily) round any more, it tends to fly in an arc, rather than a straight line. Ever shoot a slingshot with a pebble? -- Same thing. An aside to steel shot vs. lead shot patterns. Since the steel doesn't deform, it tends to produce more back-pressure. So, if you have a lot (too much) powder, the pattern goes to hell, and spreads out more than lead would with the same load. Also, a modified choke for lead is equivalent to a full with steel, or so some say. Another interesting aside: There is an English manufacturer that has come up with some metal/plastic polymer that deforms like lead in the choke tube, but rebounds to the same shape outside the barrel. It's also more environmentally concious. It is rather expensive, though, and I don't think it's available in the U.S. yet. Phil All my opinions are just that, and I don't share!
mitchell@metaphor.metaphor.com (Greg Mitchell) (03/27/91)
From: mitchell@metaphor.metaphor.com (Greg Mitchell) In article <427@erb1.engr.wisc.edu> eburns@ADS.COM (Edward Burns) writes: >In article <423@erb1.engr.wisc.edu> mitchell@metaphor.metaphor.com (Greg Mitchell) writes: >>Can anyone explain why steel shot produces a tighter pattern than lead ? > >Steel is so hard, that when the shell is fired the pellets don't deform >under the impact. With lead many do, and the deformed pellets don't >fly true so they don't stay in the useful area of the pattern. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >Ed OK, this is the answer I was expecting. Except that now I am getting mixed messages as to whether the pattern produced by lead shot is more or less desireable than that produced by steel ( see my underlining above ). Most of the posts on this subject seemed to complain about the tighter pattern of steel for the kind of shooting that was being done. However this reply seems to imply that with lead, pellets are wasted by deviating too far from the center-line of trajectory leaving not enough pellets in the required concentration to down the target. In any case what I am trying to lead up to is this, if too-round steel shot produces too-tight patterns why not make steel shot that is not perfectly round so that it will spread out in flight ? Since steel is as hard as it is it seems it would be possible to reliably produce and deploy pellets that would produce a specific pattern spread with a given choke. Shot producers could offer shot with a variety of patterning characteristics. Lead is a nasty thing to have in the food chain. I understand it is for this reason that lead shot is being prohibited for certain hunting use. IMHO, if steel shot can be used with anywhere near the effectiveness of lead it just does not seem reasonable to use lead. -- Greg
matkowsk%tinton.ccur.com@RELAY.CS.NET (03/28/91)
> pht@ohgua.ATT.COM (Phil True) > > ...Also, a modified choke for lead is > equivalent to a full with steel, or so some say. Don't you have this backwards?!? Steel shoots a very tight pattern. I've read several articles on it that have said basically if you shoot a full choke for lead shot you should shoot modified for steel. Last season I was shooting full choke steel and I must say it produced a VERY tight pattern. Too tight for ducks. Being last year was the first year I've ever shot steel, I wasn't doing very well with it. I had one duck land in my decoys. I got set, aimed for the head, and took my shot >from about 20 yards. I hit him but the shot was off a bit. I only managed to get his beak. So here I am chasing this beakless duck who couldn't seem to fly but nonetheless had quite an adrenylin rush and was easily outrunning me in 3 feet of water. I only had two shots left, it was almost sundown, I took another shot from about 10 feet, just as I fired, he turned slightly, complete miss! I couldn't believe it! One shot left, I would've felt terrible if he got away, so I made this count, and it did! I'm glad the kill shot went to the head (where I aimed) because it basically removed it, and would have wasted the drake if I had him anywhere else. Cleanest and tastiest mallard I've ever had! Didn't have to remove a single pellet from the meat! Moral of the story, unless your 'Sure Shot Mcgee' don't shoot anything tighter than a modified choke for steel. It's just too tight for such small game, at least in my experience. Although I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who shoots full choke steel shot, and your thoughts about it (that is, afterall, what this group is for :-) BTW, although you should leed less with steel, doesn't the shot get affected a lot more by the wind? It would seem so in my limited field experience using it. > Another interesting aside: There is an English manufacturer that has > come up with some metal/plastic polymer that deforms like lead in the I believe you are referring to tungsten shot. Yea, it's supposed to be better than steel, carries a heavier wallop that is similar (although still lighter) to lead. However, it makes steel shot seem cheap, and does have a few downfalls in its own right, but I don't recall what they are. *** Joe Matkowski *** ******************************************************************************* "Those willing to give up a little liberty for a little security deserve neither security nor liberty". ------ Benjamin Franklin ******************************************************************************* Of course I need a disclaimer, I LIKE my job !!!
eburns@ADS.COM (Edward Burns) (03/28/91)
In article <441@erb1.engr.wisc.edu> mitchell@metaphor.metaphor.com (Greg Mitchell) writes: >Most of the posts on this subject seemed to complain about the tighter >pattern of steel for the kind of shooting that was being done. However >this reply seems to imply that with lead, pellets are wasted by deviating >too far from the center-line of trajectory leaving not enough pellets >in the required concentration to down the target. This is something that could be debated forever. My feeling is that the "useful area" is that area within a couple of feet of your aim point. I know, you don't "aim" a shotgun, but I couldn't think of another way to say it. So yeah, in a way, I think any pellets that stray out of that area are of no use. I've actually talked to hunters though, that count on the fact that if they "miss" a bird, they may still knock it down with a stray pellet. These are the guys I try to stay *very* far away from in the marsh. Ed
sdc@scottsun.cs.umd.edu (Scott Carson) (03/30/91)
I use a full choke for steel (30 inch barrel), and I like it just fine. I find that I can hit with it, as long as I have spent enough time at the range to be in good practice. Without practice, it can be pretty frustrating, since steel with a full choke is very unforgiving. However, I consider this an asset - with steel shot, I either kill the bird or miss completely. I don't like the idea of a stray pellet wounding a bird that flies away. The only ducks I hunt are black ducks. A close shot is extremely rare - even if the duck lands in the decoys, he is 30 yards out by the time I get my gun up. With slower, less wary ducks, there is a greater danger of ruining the meat - maybe a larger choke would be better there. To practice, I just shoot American trap and skeet with regular lead (Pb) target loads. I find this completely effective (although people at the range think I'm nuts to shoot skeet with my waterfowling gun). This makes me believe that it is more important to have the ``feel'' for your gun and the target than to try to gauge the lead, wind velocity, etc. I have never had any success trying to think about the shot (although really good target shooters apparently do) - I try to cultivate an instinct instead. Scott Carson University of Maryland sdc@cs.umd.edu
scott@bierstadt.scd.ucar.edu (Larry Scott) (04/06/91)
>it does not deform like lead does. Now, not all the lead shot gets >deformed, and most of the deformities are simply indentations on the >pellet from the other shot, rather than becoming elliptical or >something. Anyway, since the lead isn't (necessarily) round any more, >it tends to fly in an arc, rather than a straight line. Ever shoot a >slingshot with a pebble? -- Same thing. Agreed! >An aside to steel shot vs. lead shot patterns. Since the steel doesn't >deform, it tends to produce more back-pressure. So, if you have a lot >(too much) powder, the pattern goes to hell, and spreads out more than >lead would with the same load. Also, a modified choke for lead is >equivalent to a full with steel, or so some say. However, it depends on the individual gun. My buddy and I patterned our guns using 3" steel BB loads. His Wingmaster, with an Imp/Cyl choke tube in, percentaged out to just barely under a Full choke pattern! In order to get a true Modified choke percentage he had to special order a Cyl choke tube. While my Citori, with Modified tubes in, barely percentaged out to what would be "Imp/Mod". In order to get good killing power on geese, I had to order an Imp/Mod tube to bump it up to Full choke percentage. An added plus to patterning your shotgun..... While doing this, we found that my Citori consistently shot 14 - 16 inches high of the point of aim! No matter which one of us shot it! While his 870 shot right on for both of us. No darn wonder I missed all those easy shots last year! :*> I had a gunsmith correct for this and now I'm concerned about finding a viable excuse for next year!! I LOVE this group! Let's keep it going! Larry and Hershey (Choc Lab)
cmi@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Theo Pozzy/R. Green) (04/10/91)
While we are talking about steel shot, I might as well ask y question too. I have heard that you shouldnt soot steel loads out of double barreled guns. Is this true? I don't want to hurt my Savage Fox double 12. Right barrel is Mod choke and the left is full. Do I need to buy a single barrel pump or autoloader? Also, if anyone knows of another Savage Fox (model B) for sale, please e-mail me a message! (I want a pair, dont tell my wife!) Jerry cmi!jerry@dartmouth.edu cmi!jerry@dartvax.dartmouth.edu
gjb@bellcore.bellcore.com (G. Blanchard) (04/11/91)
I think that whether or not a shotgun is safe with steel depends on the steel used in the barrel(s) and not the action type. This applies especially to the choke region of the barrel. Older guns (whatever action) were not designed for steel shot use but newer ones apparently use harder steel in the barrels. I have an old Lefever 20 ga. and I would not even think of using steel shot in it. I use a Remington 1100 since, even if I trash a barrel, I can replace it easily. On a related note, I'm sure that this has been thought about before but... is there any treatment process that can make older shotgun barrels tough enough for steel shot use? I seem to recall an article in Physics Today a few years ago where nitrogen ion implantation was used to toughen up replacement titanium hip joint balls so that they were no longer "expendible" items. They claimed something on the order of a factor of 400 increase in surface hardness because of a thin skin of titanium nitride formed by the ion implantation. Is such a treatment applicable to shotgun barrels? Gary Blanchard
Q19QC%CUNYVM.BitNet@vms3.macc.wisc.edu (Tom Hall) (04/30/91)
There seem to be a descent number of steel shot questions going
around and hopefully this can clear some of them up. Shooting steel
through old guns is not a good idea. The steel they used back then is
not the same as today's stuff. What really matters though is barrel
thickness and some of the old tube were pretty thin. There are some
companies that put out replacements though such as Hastings who make a
Win model 12 barrel for $300. Also, if you are going to shoot
through an older gun try to stay away from full chokes. The steel
shot cant be compressed in the same way as lead. Anyway some of my
best patterns came out of IC or mod so those are what I shoot with.
I really only use three shot sizes T, 3, and 6. The T is great on
geese and brant while the threes are good for ducks. The 6's are for
cripples on the water and with that nice full pattern also work well
upland. When using the larger shot sizes though (BBB, T, F) it is
best to pattern the gun. For some reason the shot acts differently
than the small stuff. What gives you a full pattern with 4's may
create a really ragged pattern with T's. Also WARNING : I know two
people both shooting 1187 Remingtons with IC chokes shooting F shot
who had the choke tube peen over on the inside. That F may be just a
little too big, and if this can happen in a modern gun I would defina
tely keep it out of the older ones. Lastly, if you have a gun
threaded for choke tubes, try the steel shot tubes they work very well
and may solve some of the other problems.
Tom Hall
Good hunting folks. Cuny Queens