joseph@uunet.uu.net (06/21/91)
Will...the net is kinda slow, so I'll ask the question of all questions: What is the best all-around hunting caliber for North Americam game? I'm stewing with the idea of dumping the bucks into a KDF or McMillan and figure I won't ever have any money for the rest of my natural life after that, so I need to make one caliber do it all. (except brown bears) Which of the following would you choose and why? .25-06 .270 .280 .30-06 .7mm Rem Mag .300 Win Mag .300 Wby .300 H&H .338 Win Mag .340 Wby .375 H&H .416 Rem Any inputs anyone has on any of the .300's would be appreciated. -Joseph Crunk
roa@davinci.acc.virginia.edu ("Robert O. Anderson Jr") (06/22/91)
>Which of the following would you choose and why? > > .25-06 > .270 > .280 > .30-06 > .7mm Rem Mag > .300 Win Mag > .300 Wby > .300 H&H > .338 Win Mag > .340 Wby > .375 H&H > .416 Rem > >Any inputs anyone has on any of the .300's would be appreciated. >Joseph Crunk Joe, I used to own a 300 Win Mag. The reason I bought it was because it was "not recommended on elephant, cape buffalo, or rhino" and I couldn't afford a 300 Wby. I had a Rem 700 BDL and enjoyed the death and destruction it caused.....well, okay, I didn't enjoy the recoil. I always put a couple small pieces of newspaper under my elbow when bench rest shooting..... the paper would slide.. and it left the skin on my elbow. My most accurate load (and don't try this at home unless you "know" how to work up a load) was something around 75 gr. of 4350 w/ a 110 HP. It was a fireball.....but I shot a 4 shot group at 100 yds. that was completely covered by a dime. I just loved the way crows would explode. Bobby
keith@clodII.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (keith) (06/22/91)
Joseph Crunk writes > > From: smosjc!joseph@uunet.uu.net > > Well...the net is kinda slow, so I'll ask the question of all questions: > > What is the best all-around hunting caliber for North Americam game? > > I'm stewing with the idea of dumping the bucks into a KDF or McMillan > and figure I won't ever have any money for the rest of my natural life > after that, so I need to make one caliber do it all. (except brown bears) > > Which of the following would you choose and why? > > .25-06 > .270 > .280 > .30-06 > .7mm Rem Mag > .300 Win Mag > .300 Wby > .300 H&H > .338 Win Mag > .340 Wby > .375 H&H > .416 Rem > > Any inputs anyone has on any of the .300's would be appreciated. > > -Joseph Crunk > Well Joseph, you really opened a can of worms on this one. ;-) Everyone has their favorite caliber like myself and each will gladly argue the merits of his/her choice. I personally love the .270 cal myself and have hunted with it for 12 years now and have taken 42 deer with it and only lost 2 or 3 that I know for certain that I hit. (bad shot placement) This caliber is great for whitetail and mulies but anything larger and I suspect it might be a just a little bit inadequate for a one-shot stop. A .270 should easily dispatch anything up to 250 lbs or so but for larger game I just cannot say since I have never taken anything that big. :-(( A .300 Win Mag is too much gun IMHO for smallish deer along with the other calibers listed below it. You just simply damage alot of meat on smaller deer. I know of one guy who shot a med. size buck (.300 M) and nearly half of the meat was bloodshot. A guy in my hunt club uses 7mm Magnum and it doesn't seem to be *overkill* for smaller game while at the same time I believe it would have sufficient stopping power for the largest of North American big game excluding bears as you asked. So my choice for an all around caliber would be a 7mm Magnum. This is my opinion so don't take it as the unabridged truth! Regards, Keith Boyd --- | Keith M. Boyd (NCR E&M Cola.) | Nothing could be fina' than huntin' and | | 3325 Platt Springs Rd. ________| fishin' in South Carolina! -Me- | | West Cola., S.C. 29170 | Std Disclaimers | keith@clodII.columbiasc.NCR.COM | | ph: 803-791-6419 | From uunet: !uunet!ncrcom!ncrcae!sauron!clodII!keith |
cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini) (06/22/91)
In article <1991Jun21.063938.11989@doug.cae.wisc.edu>, smosjc!joseph@uunet.uu.net writes: >Will...the net is kinda slow, so I'll ask the question of all questions: > > What is the best all-around hunting caliber for North Americam game? > >I'm stewing with the idea of dumping the bucks into a KDF or McMillan >and figure I won't ever have any money for the rest of my natural life >after that, so I need to make one caliber do it all. (except brown bears) > >Which of the following would you choose and why? First I'll dump the ones that I'd definitly not choose, ever. > .25-06 Not enough ballistics for elk, realy only good for pronghorn or antilope (sp?) > .270 Very poor factory ballistics > .300 H&H Very out dated case with extreem body taper a chrome plated bitch to reload accuratly almost no factory ammo available. Next, my comment is that recoil, and thus weight of the gun will be the deciding factor: if you are a recoil wimp, _and_ must have a very light gun, go with > .280 relativly good factory ballistics, light recoil, good bullet selection for all but the heavist game. > .30-06 it has all been said for this round. For the following rounds, even with a muzzle break, ultralight guns will still a bit of a kick. Never the less most people will be able to handle the recoil quite well, even if you did sink you $'s into a UltraLight Arms $2k, 6# jewel. Also keep in mind that there really is no point in going to either of these round if the barrel is short. > .7mm Rem Mag > .300 Win Mag Since the 300 Wby operates at 65kpsi rather than 45kpsi, it will have better ballistics even in a short barrel. Muzzle blast can be horrable especially with a muzzle break. I would wear hearing protection even when hunting with any of the rest of these guns. > .300 Wby With the next set of rounds, bullet selection is going to be the major problem: hunting white tail with a factory 375 round is not going to work, the bullets are designed for a different task. However, by handloading and spending the $'s on custom bullets, even these thumpers can work for the lighter game. They are ideal and then some for elk, bear, etc. In fact, I'd pick a rifle in 338 and the 'if i had only one gun for hunting' because it has a good selection of commercial bullets available, and has all the ballistics you will ever need for any game up to moose. > .338 Win Mag > .340 Wby Hard to find ammo > .375 H&H some of the 375 wild cats are very impresive, 375JRS is now a factory round (from A-square) it would be my 3'rd pick after the '06 (or 308) > .416 Rem brutally expensive, to buy the gun, the brass, the bullets. but you'd have a fun toy! > >Any inputs anyone has on any of the .300's would be appreciated. > >-Joseph Crunk Now the bad part: all of my opinions are based on extensive reading and range shooting of some of the calibers you've listed. The one point that is not opinion (!?!) is that you must be able to take the recoil, a gun that scares you to shoot is not a gun you want to hunt with. -cbl | Chris Luchini/1110 W. Green/Urbana IL 61801/217-333-0505 | | cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (best) |Cluch@fnald.bitnet (second chance) | Office address: 428 Loomis Lab, drop your checks there.
johnclif@cs.washington.edu (06/22/91)
You could do much worse than to select the .30-'06 as the single best all-around hunting cartridge for North America, including for the big bears. Yes, I know that many people recommend .338s and up for the big bears, but good bullets and good shooting have enabled the '06 to take many a bruin since it's creation. My '06 has been used to shoot everything from crows to deer. I have no doubt that it would do fine on elk and bear (my father originally bought it, a pre-'64 M70, in the early '50s while he was stationed at Kodiak NAS specifically for bear hunting, but he never got the chance -- since he much preferred bird hunting, I usurped it in my teens, packed in grease and with maybe 50 rounds through it -- funny, I've always liked rifles better than shotguns, and for him it was vice versa). Many of the great outdoor writers have used the '06 for game such as lion, tiger, and even elephant! I would agree that it's a little small for jumbo, but I'd be willing to pop one of the big cats with it given some Noslers. I almost think the '06 may be a little too much for deer, especially at close range. I killed my first buck with it at ~40 yards. The single shot through the lungs with a Remington factory-loaded 150 gr PSP liquified everything above the diaphram. But you can get factory loads with everything from 55 grain Accelerators to 220 grain soft points, and nearly anything else in between. Several of the ammo makers also offer excellent factory loads with Nosler, Speer, and Sierra bullets. No wonder the '06 has it's well-deserved reputation for versatility. As an aside, a few years ago I had a 8" long section of railroad rail that I tested various calibers on, just for fun. First, I shot it at 50 yards with a .22 LR and a .45 ACP 230 gr FMJ. The .22 merely left a splash mark w/o scratching the hardened steel. The .45 made a tiny ding. Then I put the rail at 100 yards and shot it with my '06. First, with a Remington Accelerator (55 gr. .223 PSP encased in a .308 plastic sabot, loaded into an '06 case -- mv 4080 f/sec). The rail had a 1/2" deep by 1" diameter crater blown in it, and lead plated. Next, I shot it with a 150 gr Remington PSP Core-Lokt, resulting in a slightly bigger and deeper lead-plated crater. Interesting factoid: the heavier bullet didn't make a proportionately bigger crater, but it did seem to impart a much larger 'shove' to the target. Energy vs. momentum? At any rate, I wouldn't want to be shot by either one! My current game load is the Federal Premium load with the Sierra 165 gr PSP boattail. I can't say that it will work on game better than the Remington 150 grain factory load, but in my rifle, accurized years ago by KDF, the Federal Premium load consistently shoots less than m.o.a. and that's good enough for me. By the way, you might also want to take advantage of the accurizing services offered by KDF and Shilen Barrels. Mine cost $100 in the early '80s (I understand KDF charges $200 now), and for that price they bed the action, place a single pressure point in the forend, and recrown the muzzle. The gun's appearance doesn't change, but it sure shoots like something else! Depending on how my new .338 Super Grade shoots, it might also end up taking a trip to Texas. Why do I have a .338? It will be my heavy rifle, with the '06 being my medium rifle, and my Ruger M77 Mark II stainless .243 as my light deer and antelope rifle. I like my other rifles too much to subject them to the constant drizzle of the Pacific Northwest! Actually, if I were you, I'd buy one of the new M70 Super Grades in .30-'06, get a Leupold 3.5x-10x scope, and also have iron sights installed and a KDF or Shilen accuracy job done on it. You'd still have spent less than either the KDF or the McMillan, and you'd have a rifle that would be every bit their equal, if not better. (No, I don't have stock in USRAC, but I really like the new Super Grades!) Just one man's opinion, worth what it costs.... John Clifford Developer, Applications Microsoft Corporation Disclaimer: I speak for me, Bill speaks for Microsoft.
petert@uunet.UU.NET (Peter Toth) (06/24/91)
<1991Jun21.063938.11989@doug.cae.wisc.edu> smosjc!joseph@uunet.uu.net writes: >Will...the net is kinda slow, so I'll ask the question of all questions: > > What is the best all-around hunting caliber for North American game? Of course there is no substitute for proper placement from effective (for both the gun and the shooter) range, but the selection of the tool is limited only by the abilities of the hunter. If you can and will stalk within 75-50 yards, you can use a shotgun, a black powder rifle, or crossbow, and under 50, a bow. Hell, if you are willing and able to move right in, you can use an axe, a club or a knife. Out of range, it's the one that got away. >[..]Which of the following would you choose and why? > > .25-06 > .270 > .280 > .30-06 > .7mm Rem Mag > .300 Win Mag > .300 Wby > .300 H&H > .338 Win Mag > .340 Wby > .375 H&H > .416 Rem Since the can of worms is already open, may i point out that my pet caliber, the 6.5x55 Swedish is conspicuous by its absence. Having said that, the answer depends on a) how often do you get a chance at a shot, b) what's the biggest game you want to hunt, what's the longest shot you'll have c) how much punishment are you willing to put up with, d) how long do you want your barrel to last (how much will you shoot it), e) everything else... a) If you have all the time and shooting opportunity in the world ;^), and have no wish to hunt big bears, pretty much all of them will do fine, with the 270 being the most limited for big game use, followed by the .25-06 and the 6.5x55 in that order. I personally know someone who anchored an elk with a .25-06 from a very long range (i won't vouch for the claimed 500 yds, since i wasn't there with my rangefinder, but he does have an 8x56 and a bipod on it, and >>usually<< doesn't lie). I also know someone who dropped a moose with a 6.5x55 from 300 yards. (Broke the neck straight on). BTW the 6.5x55 is a widely used moose round in Skandinavia. I'll assume you don't have all the time and opportunity in the world. b) My friend's experiences notwithstanding, i would not use a .25-06 on elk, and he would pass up more shots with it than with something more potent. I would suggest you consider the .280 as minimum. c) My attitude towards punishment is: the less the better, hence my fondness for the 6.5x55. There are some mighty cartridges on that list, but frankly, i couldn't think of anything i'd want to shoot at in North America i couldn't put down with authority with the .280 - .30 calibers listed. d) The .280 and .30-06 barrels will probably last you a lifetime. The magnums will eat them faster, but if you only shoot the gun when sighting in or hunting, and don't see yourself putting thousands of rounds through it, this is a non-issue. All in all, if you shoot a lot, take the .30-06. It offers long barrel life, a wide variety of projectiles, and a good selection of fine factory loads. If you do not expect to put much more than a 1000 rounds through the gun, the 7mm Rem Mag is my recommendation. With the 175 grain projectile it has the best ballistics available on the above list, even better than the 6.5x55 with the finest 140 grainers, but only slightly ;^). Peter Toth
alan@gatech.edu (Alan Barrow) (06/24/91)
I like .280 Remington. All the capabilities of the .270 with the added advantage of 7mm bullet selection & downrange ballistics. Plus it is little recognized, and you can sometimes find "deals" on one. (Like my M70 Featherweight in .280) I was originally going to use the action from the Featherweight to build a manlicher .280. The factory stock was nice enough, that I decided to lv it as is. However, my main rifle is a .308 Ruger 77RSI manlicher carbine. One day I will have a reason to use the .280, but here in Ga., the .308 works great. (165GR Grand Slam's. The downrange ballistics with the heavier bullet made me switch from 130-140Gr.) I guess silhoutte shooting made me start paying more attention to 100-200yd ballistics & trajectory. On whitetail, the Speer grand slam's have worked great, though I think they may be a bit solid. Well, you asked!!! :-) See ya! Alan Barrow
cpdlm@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Dominique Morel) (06/25/91)
> What is the best all-around hunting caliber for North Americam game? >I'm stewing with the idea of dumping the bucks into a KDF or McMillan >and figure I won't ever have any money for the rest of my natural life >after that, so I need to make one caliber do it all. (except brown bears) >Which of the following would you choose and why? > [ long list of most long-range calibers deleted] >Any inputs anyone has on any of the .300's would be appreciated. >-Joseph Crunk Well I have never shot or been In North America. I have only been in Europe, Africa, and Australia, but I have only hunted in Australia. I have friends who have hunted the world and from personal experience and what I have been told by other hunters I would have to say that if I had to have only one rifle I would keep my BRNO ZKK 602 in .375 H & H mag. I have used a wide variety of rifles from the humble .22RF through to the 460 Wby Mag. I own .22 RF .222 Rem Mag .22/250 Rem .257 Roberts (In the process of being built) .308 Norma Mag M17 action 22" barrel (TOO SHORT USELESS) getting a .458 barrel for it .308 Norma Mag FN Mauser action 26" barrel (JUST WONDERFUL ) .375 H & H and have shot .22 mag (Used to own a rifle to shoot this) .22 Hornet .218 Bee Improved .223 .222 .220 Swift .243 .17 .303/25 (Used to own a rifle to shoot this) 6.5 X 52 (Used to own a rifle to shoot this) 6.5 X 55 .264 Win Mag .250/3000 .25/06 .270 7 X 57 .308 Win .30/06 .303 British 8 X 56 8 X 57 .44/40 .444 Marlin .45/70 (Used to own a rifle to shoot this) .458 Win .460 Wby Of all the above rifles that I have shot only the 460 was unpleasant to shoot. I have found all the others to have manageable recoil. I have shot much game with the .375 and have never found it wanting. I use the beautiful 300 Sierra Spitzer Boat Tail bullets for all excecpt the Buffalo and wild cattle, where I use the 300 grain Hornandy Solids. I have found that the bullet is slow enough to kill without much bruising and yet fast, accurate and heavy enough to kill realiably. I have shot ducks and rabbits with it as well as many pigs and other game. It kills well and fast. It also has the penetration to make a heart shot on a 300lbs boar by aiming between the hams on a fleeing target. I have played with lighter bullets, but find that they are no a good as the heavy ones. The Poms got it right in 1912 with the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum. (Did you know that Holland & Holland of 98 New Bond street London were responsible for the belt and the term Magnum) A good load for the 300gn bullet is either 79.5 gns of IMR 4350 (MAX 82gns) or 82 gns of IMR 4831 I have recently cronographed the 82 gns of 4831 with 300 Hornandy solid and got 2660 feet per second out of my 25" barrel. Dominique Morel
hale@UCSD.EDU (Bob Hale) (06/25/91)
In article <1991Jun21.063938.11989@doug.cae.wisc.edu> smosjc!joseph@uunet.uu.net writes: >Will...the net is kinda slow, so I'll ask the question of all questions: > > What is the best all-around hunting caliber for North Americam game? > This question will certainly get a lot of varying answers because there are so many parameters to consider - cost of ammo, amount of recoil, length of barrel, type of country in which hunting is performed, type of game, etc. I'll speak to the two calibers that I know, the .30-06 and .375 H&H. The .375 H&H is too much for anything except for very large North American game such as bears. It is a good African caliber according to the articles that I've read, but a deer shot with one of these might have very little usable meat left on it. The .30-06 is a good all-around caliber for North American game. It's fairly flat shooting, has good range, is affordable, and won't completely trash a whitetail deer. And the recoil is mild enough that you don't need a padded jacket. That's my $.02 worth. Bob Hale ...!ucsd!btree!hale 619-535-3234 ...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu
boardman%cancer.unm.edu@ariel.unm.edu (06/26/91)
In article <1991Jun25.072114.5464@doug.cae.wisc.edu>, btree!hale@UCSD.EDU (Bob Hale) writes: >In article <1991Jun21.063938.11989@doug.cae.wisc.edu> smosjc!joseph@uunet.uu.net writes: >>Will...the net is kinda slow, so I'll ask the question of all questions: >> >> What is the best all-around hunting caliber for North Americam game? >> > > >I'll speak to the two calibers that I know, the .30-06 and .375 H&H. > >The .375 H&H is too much for anything except for very large North ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >American game such as bears. It is a good African caliber according >to the articles that I've read, but a deer shot with one of these ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >might have very little usable meat left on it. > >The .30-06 is a good all-around caliber for North American game. It's >fairly flat shooting, has good range, is affordable, and won't completely >trash a whitetail deer. And the recoil is mild enough that you don't >need a padded jacket. > >That's my $.02 worth. > >Bob Hale ...!ucsd!btree!hale >619-535-3234 ...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu I have both a 7mm Remington Magnum and a .375 H&H Magnum, and I think that you are more likely to have excessive meat destruction with the very high velocity bullets from the 7mm Magnum that with the larger and slower .375 H&H. Of course, bullet placement is the most important factor, but with equal placement, I suspect you would lose more meat on a whitetail deer shot with a 150gr. bullet @ 3100 fps than with a 250-270gr moving 400 fps slower, and I know that some people love the .375 downloaded to 2300-2400 fps for deer - great penetration with very little meat damage. Also, it has been my experience that shooting 175gr. max power loads out of the 7mm Magnum hurts more than 270gr. loads out of the .375 H&H. So if you can load your own, I think the .375 H&H might qualify as a "do everything" caliber. On the other hand, there is a vastly greater selection of ammo commercially available for the 7mm Magnum, so if you aren't thinking of handloading, I would propose the 7mm Magnum as the best "do everything" rifle, although it is really a toss-up between the 30-06, the .300 Win Mag, and the 7mm Mag, IMHO. My 2.5 cents worth! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= |**I _AM_ a member of a well-regulated militia - self-regulated, that is!!!!**| | Bob Boardman,Albuquerque,New Mexico - NRA LIFE, NMSSA, Zia Rifle&Pistol Club| | internet:boardman@unmb.unm.edu bitnet:BOARDMAN@UNMB | =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
sxrmh1@acad3.alaska.edu (06/26/91)
As for my two cents worth of input... First let me say that I regularly shoot at paper targets to absolutely positively know where each and every shot will go. To do this, I find I must handload - there's other benefits to this other than cost, like accuracy and loads that are unavailable from any factory. I am a FAN of Weatherby rifles, preferably the German made, but the Japanese made do work well also. My pet rifle is the .270 Wthby mag - probably because I've shot thousands of rounds through it, worked up loads that work for me, and have used it exclusively for deer hunting "outside", and on Montague Island, AK. (Outside, to Alaskans refers to the rest of the United States). (My father used a .300 Wthby mag exclusively for his Alaskan hunting, that is until that was no longer a challenge, then he used a scoped S/W model 29, 6 1/2" bbl, .44 mag pistol - and he killed moose and caribou regularily with that - single shot kills.) My next is probably my .340 Wthby mag - probably because I go hunting a lot in brown and grizzly bear country - not that the .270 wouldn't work for moose or caribou or sheep, etc..., but a riled bear that wants to kill me should have as little chance as I can give it. That, in itself is a VERY LOW probability, but I like to play safe. Here again, I've worked up a fine load for me, and shot hundreds of rounds through this gun. I do keep a .458 win mag in camp as an emergency bear gun - sighting it in regularily is an experience, but not too unpleasant, considering the consequences of not knowing where the bullets are going. Here again, I've worked up a load for enormous stopping power, that works for me. If one is to be going to remote places where ammunition might have to be purchased, a gun like the .30-06 is the single most popular caliber cartridge in the U.S. - (arguably, so no flames) and ammunition for it can be found in any town one goes through. It has trade offs that I am not willing to accept, though. Bottom line - Any rifle YOU are comfortable AND accurate with, of at least 270 winchester mag. cal., that fits your budget. Remember shot placement can never be stressed too greatly. Randy sxrmh1@acad3.alaska.edu