joeha@beaver.cs.washington.edu (06/01/91)
It's time to break my lurking silence and announce that after thinking long and hard about it, I finally purchased my first handgun, a Ruger GP-100 .357 Mag with a heavy 4 inch barrel. It is a versatile sporting gun and a reliable carry gun. [If you don't think I can't carry a Ruger concealed, then you don't know how much I weigh :-) ] Also, it was my philosophy to get the most effective round in the most reliable gun and become very very good with it instead going with the crowd and getting a 9mm to "spray and pray" with. So far, I have competed in slow fire bulls-eye, rapid fire bulls-eye and bowling pin contests. But there is one competition I want to try but am leary of: IPSC. Does anyone on the net compete or have you seen anyone compete with a revolver in IPSC? The several times that I attended an IPSC shoot it seemed to be populated with 10mm, .45 ACP, .40 S&W and .38 Supers. Yes, I read the magazines and I knew that's what a majority of people shoot. Those guns being there didn't surprise me. What did surprise me was that there was not one revolver shooter. Am I missing something? If I did my math right, a 180 grain bullet should only have to go 975 fps or get a 158 grain to 1105 fps to get to Major. The ammo can do it, and the revolver is accurate, inexpensive and quite durable. So why aren't there more wheelguns competing? The guns I saw at the shoots made me think that IPSC may have to change their name to "International IMPRACTICAL Equipment Race." Some of those men and women had weapons Flash Gordon would have killed Emperor Ming for. The guns with compensators, scopes, extended controls and speed draw holsters do not seem to be something you can carry everyday much less concealed. And they were talking about picking up other guns at a cost of $2,000 the way I talk about buying a box of ammo. Wasn't the idea behind IPSC to offer realistic testing of you and the gun you carry everyday, the gun you would have with you when going to convience stores, banks or the park? Or do you actually carry your race tuned gun around with you? If you use a different gun for carrying, why aren't you shooting IPSC with it? I am going to enter some IPSC contests because I want to become good with my Ruger. This is the gun I defend my home and family with, the gun I carry on the streets. I don't want to use the gun and end up looking like the TV character Sledge Hammer. But am I going in just for the fun of it with no chance of a being more than bottom of the pack? Is the competition so unbalanced in favor of the autoloader that I must get one to compete. If I must, then I may get one. Just don't hold your breath. I like DA revolvers and will probably get several of them before I get a self-shucker. I am shooting a very effective round out of a reliable, sturdy, accurate gun that fits me to a "T" and I'm not about to give it up. Does this mean I should give up on IPSC instead? Please email me or post your thoughts since I have come to appreciate the flow of facts and opinions of all who I've read here over the last 2 months. Thank you for taking the time to read this long post. Joe Harper joeha@microsoft.uucp These opinions belong only to SuperChef, The Man For All Seasonings. ******************************************************** *Dear Lord. Please give me the wisdom to know when to * *use my weapon and the skill to do so when called upon.* ********************************************************
roc@sequent.com (06/04/91)
In article <35130@mimsy.umd.edu> microsoft!joeha@beaver.cs.washington.edu writes:
#
#Also, it was my philosophy to get the most effective round
#in the most reliable gun and become very very good with it
#instead going with the crowd and getting a 9mm to "spray
#and pray" with.
Let me get this straight -- you purchased a low capacity firearm
specifically to avoid the temptation to spray and pray?
#Does anyone on the net compete or have you seen anyone
#compete with a revolver in IPSC? The several times that I
#attended an IPSC shoot it seemed to be populated with
#10mm, .45 ACP, .40 S&W and .38 Supers. Yes, I read the
#magazines and I knew that's what a majority of people
#shoot. Those guns being there didn't surprise me. What
#did surprise me was that there was not one revolver
#shooter. Am I missing something?
Yes. :-)
#If I did my math right, a 180 grain bullet should only have
#to go 975 fps or get a 158 grain to 1105 fps to get to Major.
#The ammo can do it, and the revolver is accurate,
#inexpensive and quite durable. So why aren't there more
#wheelguns competing?
Cuz they take too long to reload. A wheelgun is a plus for
reliability, simplicity, and ease of operation, but you pay
a severe penalty in time to get the gun back into service
after you've fired the last round. In competition this means
you'll still have an empty gun when your competitors are ready
to fire. In real life, well, let's hope you never need more than
six rounds.
#I am shooting a very effective round out of a reliable,
#sturdy, accurate gun that fits me to a "T" and I'm not about to give it
#up. Does this mean I should give up on IPSC instead?
No, not at all. Just don't expect to place high in the pack. What's
important is your own personal improvement, and there's always something
one can do in that area.
Ronralph@gatech.edu (Ralph Keyser) (06/05/91)
In article <35130@mimsy.umd.edu> microsoft!joeha@beaver.cs.washington.edu writes:
#
#Wasn't the idea behind IPSC to offer realistic testing of you
#and the gun you carry everyday, the gun you would have
#with you when going to convience stores, banks or the
#park? Or do you actually carry your race tuned gun around
#with you? If you use a different gun for carrying, why aren't
#you shooting IPSC with it?
#
#
Joe, you've put your finger right on an entertaining sore spot. I
think that most people would agree that the "practical" part of
IPSC is often in doubt even if we ignore for the moment the greater
debate about whether IPSC is a good training ground.
First off, let me encourage you to go out and buy too many speedloaders
and shoot IPSC with your revolver. You'll learn alot about yourself
and your equipment. Every club that I've shot with has separate catagories
for revolvers and autoloaders (as well as stock vs custom catagories) in
addition to major and minor. Many of the stages are set up in logical
groups of six shots, so you can see that the revolver is not forgotten
in IPSC. You will get good at reloading, however. You will also probably
find that it takes a *lot* of rounds to get good at this game, so you may
end up in the sport of reloading as well.
Now, for why you don't see more revolvers at IPSC (I see only a few of
them), I think it boils down to the general competative nature of
human beings. People tend to lose track of IPSC's original purpose
and start comparing themselves to absolute numbers. They want to be
the fastest, period. Not "the best score" in class X, but the best
score, period. This leads to the race car syndrome since the old
Chevy is not the fastest car, even if it does get to the store
everytime, rain or shine. Your first move is to an autoloader since
IPSC involves firing more than six rounds in a stage and reloads
take time. Then probably the cut-away competition holsters to shave
a few tenths off the draw. Then...well, as you said, Flash Gordon
City.
Now, in case you haven't guessed, I think IPSC "style" shooting is
the best training available to most average folks. I shoot a stock
autoloader most of the time, and a revolver occasionally. But I
should let you know that the IPSC "race guns" are very seductive.
Like any tool specialized for a given function, they are
very, very good at what they are designed to do, and they are a
blast to shoot (pun probably intentional).
So, go out and give IPSC a try. I think you'll get a big kick out
of it. You will probably not have much of anyone to compete against
in the revolver catagory, but if you are out for training and
experience instead of the win, I think you'll do just fine. Be sure
to take advantage of talking to the best shooters there. There's
a lot to learn about shooting fast and accurately, and lots of
it can be translated to "real life".
Ralph Keyser Albuquerque, NM
InterNet: unmvax.unm.edu!sandia!ralph or sandia!ralph@unmvax.unm.edu
Uucp: ...{ucbvax | gatech}!unmvax!sandia!ralph
--
Ralph Keyser Albuquerque, NM
InterNet: unmvax.unm.edu!sandia!ralph or sandia!ralph@unmvax.unm.edu
Uucp: ...{ucbvax | gatech}!unmvax!sandia!ralphjohn@uunet.UU.NET (John Gayman) (06/05/91)
In article <35130@mimsy.umd.edu>, microsoft!joeha@beaver.cs.washington.edu writes:
#
# It's time to break my lurking silence and announce that after
# thinking long and hard about it, I finally purchased my
# first handgun, a Ruger GP-100 .357 Mag with a heavy 4
...
# competition I want to try but am leary of: IPSC.
#
# Does anyone on the net compete or have you seen anyone
# compete with a revolver in IPSC? The several times that I
[lots of stuff deleted]
At a lot of our local IPSC matches there are quite a few (relatively
speaking) shooters who use revolvers. I would say about 6 or so out of a
total of 50-60 shooters. Most of the course designs seem to stress "revolver
neutral" which means each position of fire would require no more than 6
shots before requiring a mandatory reload or movement to a new position.
About all thats required to use a revolver in IPSC is a good competition
holster and a good supply of speed loaders. There are guys who compete
locally who can reload thier revolver just as fast as a guy can reload
his auto.
As for being hopelessly at the bottom of the pack. Remember that you will
only be competing against other revolvers. While your "overall" placement
in the match may be below a lot of the race guns, you could very well
place very high or win the revolver class. I've seen a lot of guys place
in the top 1/3 of the pack overall with thier revolver.
I guess what I'm trying to say is get yourself some speed loaders and
take in a few matches and have fun! You'll be gaining some very
valuable gun handling skills, meeting a lot of nice people, and having
a heck of a good time shooting. If your a fairly good shooter, I think
you'll suprize yourself.
John
--
John Gayman, WA3WBU | UUCP: uunet!wa3wbu!john
1869 Valley Rd. |
Marysville, PA 17053 | Packet: WA3WBU @ WB3EAH marko@hutch (Mark O'Shea) (06/05/91)
.Joe Harper writes:
.Does anyone on the net compete or have you seen anyone
.compete with a revolver in IPSC? The several times that I
.attended an IPSC shoot it seemed to be populated with
.10mm, .45 ACP, .40 S&W and .38 Supers. Yes, I read the
.magazines and I knew that's what a majority of people
.shoot. Those guns being there didn't surprise me. What
.did surprise me was that there was not one revolver
.shooter. Am I missing something?
There are a few wheel gun shooters, but they are in the minority. For what
it is worth, the classification matches are "revolver neutral" a term that
means you can be competitive with a revolver. I shot a match yesterday
in which the most fun and longest stage was revolver neutral. In the "best"
solution to this stage a reload after 5 shots was the ideal. If you shot well
you were moving after 5 shots anyway.
.If I did my math right, a 180 grain bullet should only have
.to go 975 fps or get a 158 grain to 1105 fps to get to Major.
Yes you are right.
.The ammo can do it, and the revolver is accurate,
.inexpensive and quite durable. So why aren't there more
.wheelguns competing?
In a word "capacity". The more capacity you have the better you can compete
with the big boys. The term "spray and pray" is a catchy phrase, but it
doesn't do justice to what really happens. A case in point. In yesterday's
match one of the stages had a station where you were required to get six hits
on a static target (cardboard silhouette) at 50 yards with your weak hand.
I had nine in the gun and shot it dry-I got one scoring hit, that translates
to 50 penalty points. A member of my squad with a Glock 17 shot his dry and
had 5 scoring hits. Only 10 penalty points on his run. BTW no one got all
six scoring hits in my squad.
.The guns I saw at the shoots made me think that IPSC may
.have to change their name to "International IMPRACTICAL
.Equipment Race." Some of those men and women had
.weapons Flash Gordon would have killed Emperor Ming
.for. The guns with compensators, scopes, extended
.controls and speed draw holsters do not seem to be
.something you can carry everyday much less concealed.
.And they were talking about picking up other guns at a cost
.of $2,000 the way I talk about buying a box of ammo.
.Wasn't the idea behind IPSC to offer realistic testing of you
.and the gun you carry everyday, the gun you would have
.with you when going to convience stores, banks or the
.park? Or do you actually carry your race tuned gun around
.with you? If you use a different gun for carrying, why aren't
.you shooting IPSC with it?
There is a movemnt a foot within USPSA (US IPSC) to divide up the classes
into stock (pretty much as the gun comes out of the box) and open. They
do this technically now, but there is no pay off for being best stcok
in your class.
The equipment race is much criticized within the the membership. I shoot
stock and will continue to. I think if Dave Stanford (USPSA Pres.) makes
the move and emphasizes stock like he says he might you will see two things
happen. More people shooting matches and more wheel guns in competition.
.But am I going in just for the fun of it with no chance of a
.being more than bottom of the pack? Is the competition so unbalanced
.in favor of the autoloader that I must get one to compete. If I must,
.then I may get one. Just don't hold your breath. I like DA revolvers
.and will probably get several of them before I get a self-shucker.
Do it. Many of the race gun competitors use equipment to cover up for
sloppy shooting. When I keep up my practice I can shoot as good as any
class C shooter with a race gun. BTW, I am as yet unclassified, but should
wind up in C when I finally get mine.
.I am shooting a very effective round out of a reliable,
.sturdy, accurate gun that fits me to a "T" and I'm not about to give it
.up. Does this mean I should give up on IPSC instead?
No. Come on out.
One more thing. I recommend against worrying about major/minor until
you start to get proficient. After 5 matches I have decided your mental
work is as important as your shooting ability. One more example.
In a match two months ago I watched the first five shooters take the left side
targets move to the right, reload and finish. The targets were a mixture of
steel and paper. I decided that it made more sense to get all the steel
with four rounds then reload and have 9 rounds to make 8 hits on the paper.
This worked for me very well. I had no misses and got a respectable time.
Every shooter who followed me did it my way. This included the match winner,
who told me, my solution was better than the one he had worked out.
Most of the time I watch the good shooters and try to figure out how to use
their solution with my ability.
.Joe Harper
.joeha@microsoft.uucp
Gun Control Means Being Able to Hit Your Target
Mark O'Shea
marko@ijf1.intel.com