kao@cae.wisc.edu (05/25/91)
Hi there I have some questions for you. I am considering buying a pistol. I like the Walther series since they are beautiful and easy to handle. The local dealer ask $600.00 for a PPK/S 380 ACP (new, made in German). Is the price reasonable ? Any comments on the PPK(S) ? I am also looking for shooting range at Madison , Wisconsin area. Any suggestion will be appreciated. Robert
jeffl@servprod.inel.gov (Jeff Later) (05/28/91)
In article <34880@mimsy.umd.edu> kao@cae.wisc.edu writes:
#
# Hi there
#
# I have some questions for you. I am considering buying a pistol. I like
#the Walther series since they are beautiful and easy to handle. The local dealer ask $600.00 for a PPK/S 380 ACP (new, made in German). Is the price reasonable ? Any comments on the PPK(S) ?
Why not buy the US manufactured version and save yourself about $300.?
The quality is every bit as good, or better, and think of all the
"workin stiffs" over here that you will help keep employed!
J.B. Later jeffl@pmafire.inel.gov
***Opinions expressed are mine, not my employer's***gordonh@milton.u.washington.edu (Gordon Hayes) (05/29/91)
Is there a full 9mm Walther PPK? $? -- Gordon Hayes, MCIS, University of Washington gordonh@milton.u.washington.edu Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore"
boyd@mailer.cc.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) (05/30/91)
In article <34989@mimsy.umd.edu>, gordonh@milton.u.washington.edu (Gordon Hayes) writes:
#Is there a full 9mm Walther PPK?
#$?
#
#--
#Gordon Hayes, MCIS, University of Washington
#gordonh@milton.u.washington.edu
#Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore"
No. The direct blow-back action of the PP's would be rather painful in
9mm, and would also be very hard on the gun itself. Walther does make a
"wonder-nine" called the P88. It is a fine gun (also REALLY expensive in
the states). However, I would not say it is any "better" per say than a
good SIG or Browning.
--
Mickey R. Boyd | "God is a comedian playing to an
FSU Computer Science | audience too afraid to laugh."
Technical Support Group |
email: boyd@fsucs.cs.fsu.edu | - Voltaire cmort@NCoast.ORG (Christopher Morton) (05/31/91)
As quoted from <34989@mimsy.umd.edu> by gordonh@milton.u.washington.edu (Gordon Hayes):
# Is there a full 9mm Walther PPK?
No. There WAS a prototype 9x19mm PP before the war, called the MP. Like most
blowback 9x19mms it was unsuccessful. It was their SECOND unsuccessful attempt
at a blowback 9x19mm. I forget the model number of the previous WWI
experiment. 7 or 9 I think. Like the MP, it was a hyperthyroid version of an
existing blowback 7.65mm.
# $?
Whatever you're willing to pay...? :)
--
Christopher Morton
{uunet|backbone}!ncoast.org!cmort cmort@ncoast.orgcash@convex.com (Peter Cash) (05/31/91)
In article <35033@mimsy.umd.edu> boyd@mailer.cc.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) writes: #In article <34989@mimsy.umd.edu>, gordonh@milton.u.washington.edu (Gordon Hayes) writes: ##Is there a full 9mm Walther PPK? #No. The direct blow-back action of the PP's would be rather painful in #9mm, and would also be very hard on the gun itself. Walther does make a Correct. But Walther _does_ make a PPK that shoots a 9mm round that is about halfway in power between a "short" (.380) and a parabellum. This round is apparently used by the German police. Unfortunately, 1) I can't remember what the round is called (probably 9 x something), and 2) since the round isn't popular over here, Walther doesn't import these guns. How's that for useless information? :-) -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist. | Peter Cash | (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein) |cash@convex.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
leem@jpl-devvax.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Lee Mellinger) (05/31/91)
In article <35058@mimsy.umd.edu> cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes: :In article <35033@mimsy.umd.edu> boyd@mailer.cc.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) writes: :#In article <34989@mimsy.umd.edu>, gordonh@milton.u.washington.edu (Gordon Hayes) writes: :##Is there a full 9mm Walther PPK? : :#No. The direct blow-back action of the PP's would be rather painful in : :Correct. But Walther _does_ make a PPK that shoots a 9mm round that is :about halfway in power between a "short" (.380) and a parabellum. This :round is apparently used by the German police. Unfortunately, 1) I can't :remember what the round is called (probably 9 x something), and 2) since :the round isn't popular over here, Walther doesn't import these guns. :Peter Cash | (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein) |cash@convex.com It was 9X18 and was also called the 9mm Ultra. Lee "Mit Pulver und Blei, die Gedanken sind frei." |Lee F. Mellinger Caltech/Jet Propulsion Laboratory - NASA |4800 Oak Grove Drive, Pasadena, CA 91109 818/354-1163 FTS 792-1163 |leem@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV
petert@uunet.UU.NET (Peter Toth) (06/01/91)
In article <35058@mimsy.umd.edu> cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes: #In article <35033@mimsy.umd.edu> boyd@mailer.cc.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) writes: ##In article <34989@mimsy.umd.edu>, gordonh@milton.u.washington.edu (Gordon Hayes) writes: ###Is there a full 9mm Walther PPK? # ##No. The direct blow-back action of the PP's would be rather painful in ##9mm, and would also be very hard on the gun itself. Walther does make a Actually there is a 3in barreled straight blowback .45 on the US market :^). You see, straight blowback actions are smaller than recoil ones. That's smaller, friend, not more shootable. Smaller. #Correct. But Walther _does_ make a PPK that shoots a 9mm round that is #about halfway in power between a "short" (.380) and a parabellum. This #round is apparently used by the German police. Unfortunately, 1) I can't #remember what the round is called (probably 9 x something), and 2) since #the round isn't popular over here, Walther doesn't import these guns. It's ambitiously called the 9 Ultra. It's dimensions are the same as the 9 Makarov (9x18), but i believe its rim is different and is loaded to higher pressures. It's a very nice gun, but forget about finding ammo. The gun and the cartridge were originally developed for the air force. Peter Toth
boyd@mailer.cc.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) (06/02/91)
In article <35127@mimsy.umd.edu>, snitor!petert@uunet.UU.NET (Peter Toth) writes: #In article <35058@mimsy.umd.edu> cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes: ##In article <35033@mimsy.umd.edu> boyd@mailer.cc.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) writes: ###In article <34989@mimsy.umd.edu>, gordonh@milton.u.washington.edu (Gordon Hayes) writes: ####Is there a full 9mm Walther PPK? ## ###No. The direct blow-back action of the PP's would be rather painful in ###9mm, and would also be very hard on the gun itself. Walther does make a # #Actually there is a 3in barreled straight blowback .45 on the US market :^). #You see, straight blowback actions are smaller than recoil ones. #That's smaller, friend, not more shootable. Smaller. The two types of automatic actions (for the purposes of this post) being compared are "full blowback" and "delayed blowback". A full blowback weapon (for example, the HK P7 or Walther PPK) has a fixed barrel. When a round is fired, recoil is absorbed by the weight of the slide and the resistance of the slide-return spring. The full force of the round at the time of firing must be absorbed by these two things (what is left over is what you feel). Now, a delayed blowback weapon takes advantage of the ballistic fact that if keep the gun "locked up" for just a split second after firing the amount of energy imparted to the slide drops considerably. Thus, in these guns (for example, a Colt 1911A1) the barrel moves WITH the slide for a small distance, which allows pressures to drop significantly. The barrel and slide then part ways, and the rest of the sequence is as above. I believe John Browning invented this type of action. One advantage with this type of action is that you can have a lighter (and thus SMALLER) slide on the gun. At this time I will pull a quote: "In order for a pistol of reasonable weight and dimensions to handle cartridges more potent than the .380 ACP, it becomes necessary to keep the breech mechanism locked up for a brief interval after firing. The usual term for that approach is delayed blowback." (Dean A. Grennell, _Autoloading Pistols_, pg. 37). NOTE: These are both "recoil ones". NOTE: You could also solve this problem with a REALLY strong slide-return spring, but then you would need some sort of big lever to chamber the first round. You would not be able to cycle the action by hand. So what is the name of the .45ACP? -- Mickey R. Boyd | "God is a comedian playing to an FSU Computer Science | audience too afraid to laugh." Technical Support Group | email: boyd@fsucs.cs.fsu.edu | - Voltaire
petert@uunet.UU.NET (Peter Toth) (06/05/91)
In article <35138@mimsy.umd.edu> boyd@mailer.cc.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) writes: #In article <35127@mimsy.umd.edu>, snitor!petert@uunet.UU.NET (Peter Toth) writes: ##Actually there is a 3in barreled straight blowback .45 on the US market :^). ##You see, straight blowback actions are smaller than recoil ones. ##That's smaller, friend, not more shootable. Smaller. #[...] #I believe John Browning invented this type of action. One advantage with this #type of action is that you can have a lighter (and thus SMALLER) slide on the #gun. Lighter slide maybe, smaller, not necessarily. The recoil operated action, slide and all, is taller than the simple blowback. It also has more parts than the simple blowback. #At this time I will pull a quote: "In order for a pistol of reasonable #weight and dimensions to handle cartridges more potent than the .380 ACP, it #becomes necessary to keep the breech mechanism locked up for a brief interval #after firing. The usual term for that approach is delayed blowback." (Dean #A. Grennell, _Autoloading Pistols_, pg. 37). The problems are: - preventing the action from significantly opening before the pressure drops below such levels that will shred the unsupported case, - preventing the case mouth clearing the chamber while the pressure is high enough to produce unacceptable levels of exhaust though the breech. Indeed, one of the many solutions is John Moses Browning's barrel-to-slide lockup. Another is a heavy slide/bolt, a common smg solution. Another is some cammed and sprung delay mechanism, such as in the HK or Luger. Or: #NOTE: You could also solve this problem with a REALLY strong slide-return #spring, but then you would need some sort of big lever to chamber the first #round. You would not be able to cycle the action by hand. I have no idea how they circumvent the strong spring problem. So we agree that this IS the way to make the smallest, lightest pistol? Such guns ARE a bastard to shoot, but some people are willing to learn to deal with them so they can haul a small potent package. Obviously this approach is aimed at the not so squeamish. Of course, if you are not a beggar for pain, or have an interest in sufficient controllability for longer ranges, that's another matter entirely. #So what is the name of the .45ACP? Nova 45ACP. It's 38 ounces loaded (6+1), and measures 7.1x4.6x1.3in. LaFrance Specialities POBox 17822 Dept HGI San Diego, Ca 92117 They also have a smaller 45 (5+1), for cops only, as well as a tiny 9mm, even smaller than the Detonics (24oz loaded). Peter Toth
boardman%cancer.unm.edu@ariel.unm.edu (06/06/91)
In article <35248@mimsy.umd.edu>, snitor!petert@uunet.UU.NET (Peter Toth) writes: #In article <35138@mimsy.umd.edu> boyd@mailer.cc.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) writes: ##In article <35127@mimsy.umd.edu>, snitor!petert@uunet.UU.NET (Peter Toth) writes: ###Actually there is a 3in barreled straight blowback .45 on the US market :^). # <<<STUFF DELETED>>> ##So what is the name of the .45ACP? # #Nova 45ACP. It's 38 ounces loaded (6+1), and measures 7.1x4.6x1.3in. #LaFrance Specialities #POBox 17822 #Dept HGI #San Diego, Ca 92117 # #They also have a smaller 45 (5+1), for cops only, as well as a tiny 9mm, #even smaller than the Detonics (24oz loaded). # #Peter Toth There is another auto pistol which I believe is a straight blowback being advertised in Shotgun News: the SD-9 in 9mm Para and the SD-45 in .45 ACP. It appears to have a very heavy slide and may be a piece of junk. I don't have the issue here with me, but as I recall, the wholesale price on the 9mm is $89.00. When I get a chance I'll follow this up with more details. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= |*Write Your Congressreps!**Join the NRA!**Send them money!**Buy more guns!!!*| | Bob Boardman,Albuquerque,New Mexico - NRA LIFE, NMSSA, Zia Rifle&Pistol Club| | internet:boardman@unmb.unm.edu bitnet:BOARDMAN@UNMB | =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=